our offense is terrible against high pressure D's

[SkinsFTW]

I will guarantee you if the Skins beat the Cowboys, all will be forgotten. And the kiss *ss threads will start. Just like always. ****ing MORONS!!!!!!

Not really since we will still have to play the Giants, Ravens and either Tampa, Carolina or the Giants again if we make it to the postseason. So the same thing is going to happen again unless we somehow magically turn everything around like NY did last season.

[refhaf4L]

Eagles #3 sacks - 388 yards 23 points - Win

Dallas #4 sacks - 381 yards 26 points - Win

Cardinals #7 sacks 323 yards 24 points - Win

Nice stats...right on.

I think we've got a very solid O line. But it could just be that there is a drop off when we play the elite defenses in the NFL--Giants, Steelers, and well that would the Ravens as well. We'll have to wait and see.

[dieselfan44]

good thing we dont play that many more....Giants will be a test defensively speaking as will the Ravens

[Oldfan]

Eagles #3 sacks - 388 yards 23 points - Win

Dallas #4 sacks - 381 yards 26 points - Win

Cardinals #7 sacks 323 yards 24 points - Win

Your stats are deceptive. The effect of pressure on an offense isn't just about sacks. It's about how you get them. If you have to sell out on the blitz to get a sack, you run the risk of getting beat. If your QB pressure comes mostly from the front four, you're tougher to beat.

Our O line fails against elite D lines.

[Xero21]

Yes. If we kick one more goddamn FG, I'm personally taking a road trip to Fed Ex and stealing the goalposts so we will be forced to go for TD's every time. They'll be in a storage shed in Rock Hill if anyone wants them.

Top as in "YARDS". Offensive stats/rankings are by yards.

Giants- 1 TD 0 FGs

Saints- 3 TDs 3 FGs

Cardinals- 3 TDs 1 FG

Cowboys- 2 TDs 4 FGs

Eagles- 2 TDs 3 FGs

Rams- 2 TDs 1 FG

Browns- 2 TDs 0 FGs

Lions- 1 offensive TD 4 FGs

Steelers- 0 TDs 2 FGs

16 TDs and 18 FGs. When you are kicking more FGs then scoring TD's, it will catch up to you and you will lose. last 4 weeks, 5 TDs and 7 FGs- hence 2-2 record. Gotta get it in the endzone. Yards don't count for squat. You can be #1 offense in yards, but if you can't score, you're running in circles.

True, but people are claiming that our offense is not better than last year. No way that's true. We DO have a top 10 offense, however as in previous years, we stall in the redzone.

Even with that, we have shown an ability to move the ball down the field better than any time in recent memory save for the 05 season maybe. If we find a way to punch it in more, just like you say, this is a Top 5 offense for sure.

[skinny21]

Your stats are deceptive. The effect of pressure on an offense isn't just about sacks. It's about how you get them. If you have to sell out on the blitz to get a sack, you run the risk of getting beat. If your QB pressure comes mostly from the front four, you're tougher to beat.

Our O line fails against elite D lines.

I would say the the Steeler's front 7 beat us, not the line, though that's just my impression. I think you're right though that it takes a talented line (and linebackers) to really limit us.

The Eagles are not nearly as difficult to run on as the stats suggested before we faced them, due precisely to the blitzing you referred to and a somewhat weak linebacker corp. Dallas is similar - Ware (and Ratliff to a degree) is a force, but if you can avoid him you've got a good shot.

BTW, I've got a ? If just one backer comes in a 3-4 it's not considered a blitz, right? Ware comes all the time for Dallas, but I don't get the feeling they send more guys much of the time.

[skinny21]

Eagles #3 sacks - 388 yards 23 points - Win

Dallas #4 sacks - 381 yards 26 points - Win

Cardinals #7 sacks 323 yards 24 points - Win

Yeah, the OP was a little off here. We struggle against teams that are really good against pass and run, much like our D struggles a bit against balanced teams and feasts on teams that are one-dimensional (though we're pretty good at making teams one-dimensional too!:applause:).

To me, we just didn't game plan properly. As has been mentioned, we should have run 2 TE sets a lot more, and max protected a bunch... make the Steeler's question sending their blitzers. Hell, they could have just sent out Cooley and Moss most of the time - give JC and those two time and they can certainly beat a double team.

The one thing you don't try to do is spread out the Steelers, it just gives them more avenues to the qb.

[Oldfan]

BTW, I've got a ? If just one backer comes in a 3-4 it's not considered a blitz, right?

I wouldn't consider it a blitz unless more than four rush, but I don't know how the official charters count it.

[asnpcwiz]

Eagles #3 sacks - 388 yards 23 points - Win

Dallas #4 sacks - 381 yards 26 points - Win

Cardinals #7 sacks 323 yards 24 points - Win

Thanks, I was just going to post this.

I agree that we didn't do well against the Steelers defense, but I think that was a mixture of having a bad game WITH playing the top rated D in the league. No one here should be surprised by our fair share of bad games we'll have this season. It is bound to happen with new leadership and new plays. Either way, let's not just assume we can't win against high pressure defenses when we have obviously already done so.

[martytheman]

and jansen needs to go. hes awful. hopefully heyer can come back because jansen gets blown up constantly.

Yeah Jansen got blown up, but in case you didnt notice, so did everyone else. Did you happen to notice that Samuels got called for 3... THREE holding penalties and not a single run was made to his side?

All the yards CP got were to Jansen's side..

so um.. yeah.

[1972FAN]

Pittsburgh's D is on a totally different level then those 3 teams. Expect us to really struggle against Balt too.

Tis true, you won't see a defense like that week after week.

[Bigmuss1]

Jansen needs to be a backup and that's it, please put Heyer on the field!!

[Mister Happy]

Your stats are deceptive. The effect of pressure on an offense isn't just about sacks. It's about how you get them. If you have to sell out on the blitz to get a sack, you run the risk of getting beat. If your QB pressure comes mostly from the front four, you're tougher to beat.

Our O line fails against elite D lines.

Those teams do get a lot of sacks from the D-line.

What elite D-lines do you think we failed against?

[Oldfan]

Those teams do get a lot of sacks from the D-line.

Think of the Eagles and Giants. To create heavy pressure, the Eagles need to blitz more often than the Giants who have stocked their roster with strong rush guys.

What elite D-lines do you think we failed against?

Off the top?

Carolina in the preseason. Pittsburgh (include an OLB in the 3-4)

Against the Giants, the Skins need to assign eligible receivers to help protect against a four-man rush.

Our RTs has been very weak in protection, obviously.

Patrick Kearny draped himself over Todd Collins repeatedly when we played Seattle in the playoffs last year despite being double teamed.

Aaron Kampmann bull rushed Heyer and Wade last season injuring them both in the same game.

[Chump Bailey]

Jansen needs to be a backup and that's it, please put Heyer on the field!!

The entire line struggled against Pittsburgh and pass protection is neither guy's strong suit. Jansen fared pretty well in the Dallas and Philly games. The play calling and protection schemes as a whole didn't help matters also.

[Mister Happy]

Think of the Eagles and Giants. To create heavy pressure, the Eagles need to blitz more often than the Giants who have stocked their roster with strong rush guys.

The Eagles get plenty of pressure from the D-line. Spagnuolo blitzes plenty. He comes from the same blitz-heavy system as Jim Johnson.

Off the top?

Carolina in the preseason. Pittsburgh (include an OLB in the 3-4)

Against the Giants, the Skins need to assign eligible receivers to help protect against a four-man rush.

Our RTs has been very weak in protection, obviously.

Patrick Kearny draped himself over Todd Collins repeatedly when we played Seattle in the playoffs last year despite being double teamed.

Aaron Kampmann bull rushed Heyer and Wade last season injuring them both in the same game.

Carolina is 28th in sacks, and that was preseason.

The Giants didn't get a lot of pressure on Campbell. They had 1 sack when Campbell ran right into the arms of Tuck who was well-blocked.

Their lack of pressure wasn't because we kept a lot of blockers. Almost all of our passing was from 3 and 4 WR sets with a little bit of play action. I don't think our struggles were due to bad protection or heavy pressure. It was from sloppy mistakes and not knowing where to go in the new offense.

If you want to go back to last year, you can look at when we played the Giants in week 15. We had almost 200 yards and 16 points on them in the 1st half before Gibbs played not to lose in our 22-10 blowout.

If we didn't have so many injuries to the OL last year, you might have kind of a point, but I'm just not seeing your pattern of getting dominated by heavy pressure teams. Pittsburgh, preseason and Todd Wade last year is not enough to form a trend.

[Oldfan]

The Eagles get plenty of pressure from the D-line. Spagnuolo blitzes plenty.

I disagree, but I'm not so anxious to prove my point that I want to spend my time digging up the stats to prove it.

He comes from the same blitz-heavy system as Jim Johnson.

So what? He's not working with the same talent.

Carolina is 28th in sacks, and that was preseason.

Preseason or not, both our first team lines were trounced in their matchups.

The Giants didn't get a lot of pressure on Campbell. They had 1 sack when Campbell ran right into the arms of Tuck who was well-blocked. Their lack of pressure wasn't because we kept a lot of blockers.

We evidently watched two different games.

I'm just not seeing your pattern of getting dominated by heavy pressure teams.

We've played two teams, the Giants and Steelers, that applied heavy pressure. Our offense was pitiful in both games. That's not coincidence.

[Mister Happy]

We've played two teams, the Giants and Steelers, that applied heavy pressure. Our offense was pitiful in both games. That's not coincidence.

So basically your point is that we were bad on offense for the first game, not because of rust or learning a new offense, but because the Giants forced us to keep Cooley in to block in our 3 WR sets.

Despite having as many or more sacks against us as the Giants, the Eagles and Cowboys did not bring heavy pressure and force us to keep Cooley in to block, so that is why we succeeded against them and not the Giants.

Also, our good production on offense in the previous game last year against the Giants does not disturb the pattern at all.

Is that accurate?

Your pattern consists of only 2 games - Steelers and Giants. The lack of pressure by the Giants on Campbell is a tough obstacle to overcome when your entire premise rests on heavy pressure by the Giants as the reason why we lost. The success of our offense against the Giants in week 15 last year doesn't help much either.

[alleycat]

Remind me ....who all the teams are that excel against High pressure D's ?

[Oldfan]

So basically your point is that we were bad on offense for the first game, not because of rust or learning a new offense, but because the Giants forced us to keep Cooley in to block in our 3 WR sets.

Despite having as many or more sacks against us as the Giants, the Eagles and Cowboys did not bring heavy pressure and force us to keep Cooley in to block, so that is why we succeeded against them and not the Giants.

Also, our good production on offense in the previous game last year against the Giants does not disturb the pattern at all.

Is that accurate?

No, that's not accurate. You managed, by oversimplification mainly, to distort my position.

And no, the pattern is not disturbed by last year's Giants game where a completely unique set of circumstances, mainly the effects of windy conditions and Todd Collins, gave last year's offense an edge that overcame the deficit in personnel caused by the need to keep eligible receivers in to help block the Giants' front four.

I can express my point another way if it will aid your understanding. Jim Zorn inherited the same problem that Gibbs and Saunders had to deal with every week in previous seasons. The pass-blocking is not very good even when the line is healthy. This makes it necessary to assign eligible receivers to protection schemes much too often and limits the potential of the offense.

Since the WCO was designed to take some of the pressure off the pass blockers, Zorn's problem is minimized and his offense can move the ball fairly well until it encounters a team that is very effective in exerting pressure without lots of blitzes.

[Timmy Smith]

Let's just say I am absolutely dreading the Baltimore game.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Jason is getting better.

but... he still isn't good at reading defenses that show different looks and making a call on checkdowns.

This fact combined with the new offense this year and he's not working through his progression fast enough.. and there you go... 7 sacks.

[Oldfan]

Remind me ....who all the teams are that excel against High pressure D's ?

I don't think I'd use the word "excel" with any, but obviously some are better at it than others. They're usually found at the top of the list of high-scoring teams.

[Mister Happy]

No, that's not accurate. You managed, by oversimplification mainly, to distort my position.

And no, the pattern is not disturbed by last year's Giants game where a completely unique set of circumstances, mainly the effects of windy conditions and Todd Collins, gave last year's offense an edge that overcame the deficit in personnel caused by the need to keep eligible receivers in to help block the Giants' front four.

I can express my point another way if it will aid your understanding. Jim Zorn inherited the same problem that Gibbs and Saunders had to deal with every week in previous seasons. The pass-blocking is not very good even when the line is healthy. This makes it necessary to assign eligible receivers to protection schemes much too often and limits the potential of the offense.

Since the WCO was designed to take some of the pressure off the pass blockers, Zorn's problem is minimized and his offense can move the ball fairly well until it encounters a team that is very effective in exerting pressure without lots of blitzes.

Well in the last Giants game we mostly passed out of a 3 WR 1 RB. That's not a huge deficit, and I don't know how often Cooley was blocking instead of running routes.

You could say that we needed Cooley to block in order to stop the Giants, but in the previous Giants game where we had success on offense, we threw at Cooley 10 times.

We haven't even established that Cooley did stay back to pass block most of the time, let alone that was the reason that we struggled.

Jason Campbell gets foiled by heavy pressure from the Giants, but they can't stop Todd Collins throwing in windy conditions without Randy Thomas?

That doesn't seem very consistent with what you are saying. It seems like there are other factors involved.

DeMarcus Ware, Darren Howard, Trent Cole, Juqua Parker, Jay Ratliff and Greg Ellis are all good pass rushers this year. We didn't seem to have a problem with them.

In fact Ware is the highest sacker we've faced. Keeping a guy back to help block him didn't slow our offense down much.

[Oldfan]

MisterHappy: Well in the last Giants game we mostly passed out of a 3 WR 1 RB. That's not a huge deficit, and I don't know how often Cooley was blocking instead of running routes.

What source are you using to determine the formations used most in a game?

What do you mean by "that's not a huge deficit?" What does the formation alone tell you about the blocking assignments?

There are five eligible receivers. Why are you focused only on Cooley?

Jason Campbell gets foiled by heavy pressure from the Giants, but they can't stop Todd Collins throwing in windy conditions without Randy Thomas? That doesn't seem very consistent with what you are saying. It seems like there are other factors involved.

There were lots of factors involved, one of the major negatives from our point of view was the obvious mismatch between the Giants D line and our O line.

DeMarcus Ware, Darren Howard, Trent Cole, Juqua Parker, Jay Ratliff and Greg Ellis are all good pass rushers this year. We didn't seem to have a problem with them.

They are not good enough to beat frequent double-teams.

In fact Ware is the highest sacker we've faced. Keeping a guy back to help block him didn't slow our offense down much.

Tell me how you know that. Isn't is obvious that the need to double-team is a disadvantage whether it's on offense or defense? You're straining to argue against the obvious.