Wildcat....Portis and Shaun

[Capt Rich Fla]

Ah, nice to see someone else who understands it

Now keep in mind.... good SW coaches are aware that eventually a good DC will notice that the BB (blocking back) will ultimately take them in the direction of the play.

And when an OC notices that.... we have an "adjustment" where the BB goes to the opposite side of the play. Called a "cross" adjustment

That's what is beautiful about the offense as well.... there are many adjustments that a coach can make The better the coaches... and the smarter the kids (mainly the offensive linemen).... the more unstoppable the offense becomes!

BTW, the Double Wing has a QB under centre... the Single Wing is a direct snap I had my initiation into football with Double Wing (Markham, Wyatt, etc)... and tried it in my first year coaching... but we were a horrible football team (made up for 5-7 year olds... 1/3rd of my roster... going against 9-11 year olds). So I scrapped it mid-season because it wasn't working -- NOTHING WAS WORKING ON OFFENSE OR DEFENSE THAT YEAR -- and the parents couldn't appreciate the offense and the zero line splits. They feared what they didn't know.

It took awhile to get the parents on board with the SW last year... and it lasted all of 1 practice. Once I implemented 3 plays and ran it against the defense with ease.... they were sold on the gimmicky offense And I've been sold ever since I saw my first diagramed SW play.... and have bought damn near every single SW resource available

I played OG guard and LB in high school. As a guard I didn't have to know what was really going on with ALL the terminology. We had the three back field guys in a half moon directly behind center. I used to wonder how my center got the ball to the right guy. One thing I do know is I absolutly hated looking at all that stuff unfold during a play from the LB spot. Some guys were good at all the fakes too. That made it worse. Do the pros send the BB in the direction of the play? As soon as the coach told me never to let him get away from me and kill him on every snap, I got a lot of tackles. Surley the pros make it worlds more difficult to keep with.

[hobbie8046]

Please...enough of the "Wildcat."

[dfitzo53]

We did that in high school. I can't believe pro teams are using it. I used to hate it in high school going up against teams that used the double wing offense. As a LB all you can see is people crossing the backfield and guys spinning around in circles. It was frustrating to figure out who had the ball. Fake hand offs, balls snapping to other people, recievers crossing in the backfield. The only good thing in high school was after a while we noticed the the ball was going where the fullback went almost all the time. If you give the lead blocking assignment to a different player on different plays it would be darn near impossible to defend.

My high school ran the double wing as well. It used backs in a lot of different ways and you never knew at the start of the play who might get the ball. Practiced against it every day, and the single wing was still difficult to defend - the two have similarities, but a lot of differences.

I think people who assume that they know better than NFL coordinators how to stop an offense need to get real. You're talking about someone who is paid hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars and spends tens of hours a week watching film. (And that's film with far more camera angles than you get on the Sunday broadcast.) You think you know better than they do? Really?

[Die Hard]

I played OG guard and LB in high school. As a guard I didn't have to know what was really going on with ALL the terminology. We had the three back field guys in a half moon directly behind center. I used to wonder how my center got the ball to the right guy. One thing I do know is I absolutly hated looking at all that stuff unfold during a play from the LB spot. Some guys were good at all the fakes too. That made it worse. Do the pros send the BB in the direction of the play? As soon as the coach told me never to let him get away from me and kill him on every snap, I got a lot of tackles. Surley the pros make it worlds more difficult to keep with.

In the SW.... there are 2 backs in the backfield lined up next 2 each other (or spread out depending on the variations). The Tailback is to the left... the full back to the right (but not a TRUE fullback)... and the Blocking Back (the TRUE fullback) is lined up behind the guard or tackle. The Wingback obviously on the strong side wing. The WING goes in motion.

The Center can snap to ANY of the 3 backs.... obviously the alignment of the Blocking back will be a bit different if the ball is snapped to him. The playcall is 136 Power. The "1" is who it is snapped to.... the 3 is who would get the ball from the "1"... and the "6" is the hole. The end part is the blocking scheme and motion call.

As I said though... there are a multitude of variations with this scheme... and what the Dolphins are running are the "Jet" series... where you see Ricky Williams going to motion from a wideout position and either fake or take the handoff from Brown. They can try a direct snap to Williams.... but you can imagine the timing of the centre snap on a play like that.... snapping to a motion man.

Lots of options though. Trust me

If you followed the BB to the play.... then it's obvious you met up with a team that has a coach that isn't well-versed in SW adjustments yet Like anything... it takes awhile to master.

And that's in large part because..... DC's will come up with the craziest defensive alignments to stop the offense... so the offensive line has to be prepared for just about anything.

[skinzzfan25]

Care to enlighten the NFL on how to shut it down?

Blow the snot out of their usual QB when they line up as a WR. Repeat it, I bet he won't be calling any wildcat formations in the huddle any longer.

[Die Hard]

My high school ran the double wing as well. It used backs in a lot of different ways and you never knew at the start of the play who might get the ball. Practiced against it every day, and the single wing was still difficult to defend - the two have similarities, but a lot of differences.

I think people who assume that they know better than NFL coordinators how to stop an offense need to get real. You're talking about someone who is paid hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars and spends tens of hours a week watching film. (And that's film with far more camera angles than you get on the Sunday broadcast.) You think you know better than they do? Really?

Not to mention.... guys with "systems" become experts at it. You don't make it to the PROS without knowing your own system inside out. So when they teach it... they're prepared for basically every defensive front imaginable Then it all comes down to execution.... where "ability" also plays a large factor in it as well.

A lot of SW and DW coaches interchange the schemes and plays... just to throw defenses off. It can be done because the blocking principles are the same.

There is definitely some misdirection in the DW... and it's a good offense. Many of the same pros as the SW (outnumber at POA, all the plays look the same, etc). However, when it comes to the SW.... there's no better misdirection than the "spinning fullback" series.... and the "t-series" (ie. half spin).

If you're bored... look on Youtube for videos of it. It's simply brilliant. You won't know where the ball is most of the time.

I always laughed when my parents told me they had no idea who had the ball until they saw a RB separating from the piles..... running for a touchdown

[CrypticVillain]

Umm, it's an offense.

As for the subject, I would be for anything that Zorn thinks would work. I think that he is slowly becoming a play calling guru.

I was in a rush and you know what I meant. Then you went through all that trouble to highlight it, thanks I guess.

[Retire 21]

**** Shaun Alexander. He better be cut the second Betts is healthy again.

[dy44]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up. Please keep in mind I don't think this will happen and more then likely won't happen. But what if Shaun ends up actually begins being the beast he was in 05 or somewhat close to that do you think Zorn would consider implementing the wildcat formation like the dolphins have done? The browns just had a similar formation on Monday night and I believe the sports caster said a few other teams have attempted it as well.

Comments? Thought?

Hail

edited cause I never learned how to spell...

dude when you hit 30 you will not think like this anymore

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up. Please keep in mind I don't think this will happen and more then likely won't happen. But what if Shaun ends up actually begins being the beast he was in 05 or somewhat close to that do you think Zorn would consider implementing the wildcat formation like the dolphins have done? The browns just had a similar formation on Monday night and I believe the sports caster said a few other teams have attempted it as well.

Comments? Thought?

Hail

edited cause I never learned how to spell...

The NFL's a copycat league, as we know. But should we use it? HELL NO!

The Single Wing formation might work in college, but in the pro's, it's smacks of desperation. Were developing nicely offensively under the Z-Man's innovative scheme. Way more open than Coach Gibbs ever dared to be that second go around. We've also seen gadget plays, with quite a few unconventional, but darn ballsey calls thrown in. I'm sure when Fred Davis get's up to speed, the vaunted two TE sets will become a big factor. And if Kelly ever gets back to full health.....

Coach Z's doing just dandy calling his plays. Let's keep it that way.

Hail.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

**** Shaun Alexander. He better be cut the second Betts is healthy again.

Way to welcome the new Redskin FAN. Or did you miss that?

Classy. :doh:

Hail.

[cphil006]

no. Portis is better now than Shaun was then. Portis has a better average, too. Shaun will hopefully fill in for 5-7 carries a game... Ladell 5-7 carries, Portis gets 21-25.

[cphil006]

The NFL's a copycat league, as we know. But should we use it? HELL NO!

The Single Wing formation might work in college, but in the pro's, it's smacks of desperation. Were developing nicely offensively under the Z-Man's innovative scheme. Way more open than Coach Gibbs ever dared to be that second go around. We've also seen gadget plays, with quite a few unconventional, but darn ballsey calls thrown in. I'm sure when Fred Davis get's up to speed, the vaunted two TE sets will become a big factor. And if Kelly ever gets back to full health.....

Coach Z's doing just dandy calling his plays. Let's keep it that way.

Hail.

In Gibbs defense, Campbell is better now than he was then. Zorn held him back in game 1 and has brought him along, but limiting the amount of mistakes he could make.

The running gmae is almost the same. The o-line is back and everyone on aoffense is the same as last season. They were going to do nothing but improve.

[Die Hard]

The NFL's a copycat league, as we know. But should we use it? HELL NO!

The Single Wing formation might work in college, but in the pro's, it's smacks of desperation.

Your post smacks of ignorance.

How is an offense predicated on a power off-tackle play "smacking of desperation"?

The fact that there's motion in the backfield?! Guess what... that's pretty prevalent in the NFL right now.... being utilized by every offense that isn't using the wildcat formation and playbook. In fact, I'd imagine you're seeing it in 25% of all the plays.

Yet, it's OK for Zorn to call gadget plays.... but when it's in the WCO it's "ballsy" and "unconventional"?!?!

Dude, all you've done is shown that you don't know very much about the game of football. And it doesn't sound like you're interested either.

[smackedHugo]

Blow the snot out of their usual QB when they line up as a WR. Repeat it, I bet he won't be calling any wildcat formations in the huddle any longer.

LOL.

kinda like adam sandler drilling the ref in the balls 3 times in The Longest Yard.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Your post smacks of ignorance.

How is an offense predicated on a power off-tackle play "smacking of desperation"?

The fact that there's motion in the backfield?! Guess what... that's pretty prevalent in the NFL right now.... being utilized by every offense that isn't using the wildcat formation and playbook. In fact, I'd imagine you're seeing it in 25% of all the plays.

Yet, it's OK for Zorn to call gadget plays.... but when it's in the WCO it's "ballsy" and "unconventional"?!?!

Dude, all you've done is shown that you don't know very much about the game of football. And it doesn't sound like you're interested either.

And who, outside of the '08 Dolphins, have used the Single Wing, in it's purist sense, in the pro's since WWII or not long after? (And even Miami's "Wildcat" is a varation on the traditional SW.).

I agree many aspects of it are still used, such as play action, laterals, reverse's etc, but it's evolved much more in the passing game than the running game, into what we'd call a spread-offense today.

Maybe's you should 1, READ a point being made; and 2, learn the specifics of what the Single Wing Offense was way back when, which is what i alluded to us not having a need to do as were doing fine as we are; before you jump in and call someone "football ignorant."

Either that or enjoy college ball.

Hail.

[Capt Rich Fla]

Blow the snot out of their usual QB when they line up as a WR. Repeat it, I bet he won't be calling any wildcat formations in the huddle any longer.

That is not a bad post. If the QB puts himself in harms way, he shouln't cry when LL comes from 30 yards back to level him.

[kuraitengai]

There is a lot of accuracy in the post.

The play has nothing to do with the read of the DE... although adjustments can be made depending on how the DE adjusts. The blocking scheme is based on the playcall.

Why is it difficult to defend? Because of the misdirection. DE's have to stay home and respect all the available options - even backside. And that takes away some of the aggressiveness of the offense... and that split second hesitation is all a RB needs to get to the second level.... because the plays are quick hitting.

And it's like a QB keeper... with a runninback. There's no exchange - which slows down a play - AND all 11 men on the field are being useful on each play.... rather than QB handing off and watching the play... effectively utilizing only 10 men offense.

- Which also gives you more blockers at the POA -- good thing.

- Also, every play looks exactly the same... so there are no "tells" -- good thing.

- And every play has 3-4 potential options from it... potentially attacking every area of the field/defense -- good thing.

That's why it's such an effective offense. Frankly, it's a brilliant offense.

As I told anybody that would listen last year in the Tailgate forum... I'd highly recommend Dave Cisar's Unbalanced Single Wing complete football program package for anybody (it's geared toward NEW coaches... but used by everybody... including experts) considering coaching football. Best product I've seen to date... and I've spent over $4000 on football coaching materials (books/DVDs, seminars, etc).

the part about having the RB take the direct snap giving 11 on 11, as opposed to a QB handing the ball off then watching for a 10 on 11 is exactly right.

but i still dont see how you say the wildcat/wildhog/whatever clemson calls it isnt dependent on the DE. watch anytime its run. anytime colt mccoy runs it, his eyes are fixed on the DE. same thing with robert griffen at baylor. his eyes are fixed on the DE. if the DE crashes inside, mccoy and griffen keep the ball. if the DE holds his ground, then they hand off to the RB to the inside. thats why its called the 'qb read option'...cuz he is reading (staring down) the DE to see what he needs to do.

but yeah, its difficult to defend cuz it IS misdirection. so you have to give misdirection back. for whoever asked the question of how to stop it. if the offense is depending on the misdirection to make the play work. let them think it is. have the DE crash inside, so the QB makes the read to keep the ball and take it outside. but have the LB float, hidden behind the line, outside to the spot the DE vacated by crashing in. so then the QB (or RB in the case of the wildcat), takes it to the outside, then suddenly the LB is in front of him.

now on someone like ronnie brown, that wouldnt exactly shut him down. since i think 3 of his TDs against NE, he kept the ball, but still went up the gut. but on a guy like mccoy or griffen, it would work since if they keep the ball, they wont run inside. they always take it outside. so it would work shutting down the college qb read option. but it wouldnt work against miami's wildcat since theyve shown that the read to keep goes inside, while the read to give goes to the outside, opposite of the way colleges run it with the mobile qb.

[DMBAdict04]

I was confused on as to what this is but I headed over to wikipedia to check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_wing

There is the link for anyone who is curious...

This offense looks crazy to say the least but I can def. see it confusing and shutting down some defenses. Will we use it? I doubt it, but you never know...

[RedskinNutt]

Blow the snot out of their usual QB when they line up as a WR. Repeat it, I bet he won't be calling any wildcat formations in the huddle any longer.

Now that's an actual decent suggestion :applause:, even though I wouldn't mind seeing CP or ARE getting a direct snap once this season...could be fun to watch.

BTW- one of the best, well thought-out threads I've ever read. nice to hear some former player and coach-speak and not having to be interrupted by a "your post= fail" post

[Die Hard]

Now that's an actual decent suggestion :applause:, even though I wouldn't mind seeing CP or ARE getting a direct snap once this season...could be fun to watch.

If the Redskins WERE going to utilize any Wildcat plays... it is done with Portis. Not ARE. ARE is not a legitimate thread to run the ball... especially between the tackles.

[One Shot]

I think we're gonna be seeing a lot of Shaun this weekend.

[Die Hard]

And who, outside of the '08 Dolphins, have used the Single Wing, in it's purist sense, in the pro's since WWII or not long after? (And even Miami's "Wildcat" is a varation on the traditional SW.).

I agree many aspects of it are still used, such as play action, laterals, reverse's etc, but it's evolved much more in the passing game than the running game, into what we'd call a spread-offense today.

Maybe's you should 1, READ a point being made; and 2, learn the specifics of what the Single Wing Offense was way back when, which is what i alluded to us not having a need to do as were doing fine as we are; before you jump in and call someone "football ignorant."

Either that or enjoy college ball.

Hail.

I'm well aware of the SW history. I didn't cite it... because it wasn't relevant to this discussion.

Just as no one in this thread OR EVER... even suggested that it be used as a base offense for an NFL team. Simply because in the NFL you need balance to keep defenses honest, on their toes... and create the ability for mismatches.

You can't do that with an offense primarily geared around a running attack and a few playaction passes. Otherwise, defenses would put 11 linebackers on the field.

Is it a good series for a few plays in a game? Absolutely. Even when defenses key the run. Because either you gain some big yards... or you gain what the play is designed to gain... 4-5 yards a pop. And if it doesn't work... you can still go to a base pro offense and throw in a pass play, if necessary, to gain the first.

It's still a good offense to rush the ball.... but no one is talking about scrapping the WCO. Geez :doh:

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

My apologies DH, it seems we both misunderstood each other.

The point I was trying to make was that from what I've seen to press of Zorn's scheme, I didn't feel the need to change.

I wouldn't say he runs a West Coast Offense per say, more a hybrid. If you say the two main minds behind the WCO as we know it today were Don Coryell and later Bill Walsh, Zorn seem's to of balanced a nice mix of the two; aspects of Coryell's timed spread passing to open things up, with Walsh's short slants etc to stretch the D. But then you through in the way, in particular, he's quite prepared to go with the run, and isn't afraid to take his shot down field consistently, and it's, at least to press, a deadly combination no-one as yet has been able to get a read on, so unpredictable a mixture of plays during a game that he's called.

For my part, I was under the impression the OP was suggesting that, ala what a lot of High School and College teams do, we maybe's thought of running the Single Wing as a base offence now we, (hopefully if Alexander wants it bad enough), have two top tier RB's. That was the point I was making when I said it smacks of desperation at the pro level. Teams using the SW as a their base O. If I misunderstood both the OP and yourself, again, I apologise.

I wouldn't be opposed to certain formations and plays of the SW being in the playbook to try at certain times of the game. Anything that adds to keeping a D honest is worth having. And if run right, I agree, those plays can be an effective element to the run game in totally unbalancing the opposing D.

As we stand, I like what we've seen from Coach Zorn thus far, with a lot more to come if he keeps on down this route as players get more accustomed to his scheme, Kelly and Davis slot in etc. But to take certain elements of the SW also would have it's merit too.

Moreover, a good, thought provoking thread from the OP that's raised some interesting issues on how to attack in the modern day NFL.

Hail.

[APBT]

We did that in high school. I can't believe pro teams are using it. I used to hate it in high school going up against teams that used the double wing offense. As a LB all you can see is people crossing the backfield and guys spinning around in circles. It was frustrating to figure out who had the ball. Fake hand offs, balls snapping to other people, recievers crossing in the backfield. The only good thing in high school was after a while we noticed the the ball was going where the fullback went almost all the time. If you give the lead blocking assignment to a different player on different plays it would be darn near impossible to defend.

Yeah we used it in highschool as well. Be sure you keep your head on a swivel going up against it, because once you get caught in the show in the backfield, you will get the snot knocked out of you.

Then on the next play you are not worried about who has the ball, you are worried about the SOB who just rag dolled you.

Its a very difficult formtion to defend.