HEMP- Part of the Solution.

[Baculus]

Brazil.

Yeah, that was a good movie.

Did you have a point? I know Brazil has shifted to using alternative fuels. Have we? No.

[Baculus]

I think the fact that China grows it and is still petroleum dependent and has deforestation issues supports the idea that it isn't necessarily the solution to those problems. Essentially, every country in the world is petroleum dependent. Yet none of them have ever gone to using hemp as a replacement. Many countries are limited by wood based products, but none of them have ever gone to using hemp as a solution.

Hemp can easily be grown in the deforested areas. In fact, that is EXACTLY what I have long thought would help the American NW region, especially with the clear-cuts. Especially if you take into account that deforested areas face major issues with topsoil erosion, which leads to environ destruction and affects re-usability.

The Chinese, though, just have not emphasized enough hemp product.

Just because a nation doesn't use hemp a great deal for its industrial purposes does not mean the plant can't be used in the manner that we have discussed, because we SEE it being used in that manner.

If it were the magic pill solution to all of these issues (and there weren't many practical negative issues), I think some country would have embraced its use. It does though seem it has some potentials and different countries are running tests (including the US). I'd guess the most practical might actually be in fuel (cellulose to ethanol technology being newer than paper and fiber technology from plants). I don't think that will ever catch on though because where we are going is to the use of the non-food part of food plants (e.g. corn stalks) to produce ethanol.

Marijuana has the greatest biomass of any plant, including corn. It's long fibers is perfect for both fuel production and textiles. THIS is a known - it ain't some made-up "stoner" factoid.

I own hemp-cloth products - you can buy this sort of hemp products at many stores. Again, this isn't some new idea, since one of the first examples of textiles ever found is hemp cloth.

But back to WWII, the encouragement of growth then was not for paper or fuel, but to use as fibers for things like rope. It is possible (and I'd even argue likely) that it was superior to synthetic fibers/method then, but is not today.

Yeah, they called that "Hemp for victory," and we spend millions a year eradicating wild hemp from that period, even though it is worthless as a substance to get a person high.

Now, obviously hemp cannot supplement EVERYTHING, but the point is very easy to see: It is a very useful plant and multipurpose in usage, and yet, it is considered a dangerous drug by the US government even though it has a potential to be one of our most useful cash crops.

[PeterMP]

Yeah, that was a good movie.

Did you have a point? I know Brazil has shifted to using alternative fuels. Have we? No.

You said nobody. Brazil is a whole country that has moved. We haven't moved to having hemp be a major part of our economy, but neither has any other country.

Essentially, I can give you what you asked for with respect to alternative energy and cars. You can't do the same for hemp.

The only models that we have in the whole world is w/ hemp being a minor contributor to the over all economy of the country. That's not the case w/ alternative fuels.

[PeterMP]

You highlighted the wrong areas: you should have emphasized "The AMA calls for further adequate and well-controlled studies of marijuana and related cannabinoids in patients who have serious conditions for which preclinical, anecdotal, or controlled evidence suggests possible efficacy and the application of such results to the understanding and treatment of disease."

According to McCain, there IS no benefits for medical marijuana, and it is not even worthy of research.

McCain didn't mention research. The question was about medical marijuana. Your post suggested that the AMA supports it. It seems the AMA supports more research into it.

[PeterMP]

Just because a nation doesn't use hemp a great deal for its industrial purposes does not mean the plant can't be used in the manner that we have discussed, because we SEE it being used in that manner.

Okay, I'll agree somewhat with that, but the basic thrust of this thread is that it is superior to already exsisting products (e.g. trees and cotton). NOT that it has some of the same uses.

Marijuana has the greatest biomass of any plant, including corn. It's long fibers is perfect for both fuel production and textiles. THIS is a known - it ain't some made-up "stoner" factoid.

But the corn is being grown anyway.

It is a very useful plant and multipurpose in usage, and yet, it is considered a dangerous drug by the US government even though it has a potential to be one of our most useful cash crops.

Okay, this is what I don't think you've actually shown.

It has many uses, but that doesn't mean its very useful (if some other methods are individually better for all of those uses that limits its utility) and that would limit its utility as a cash crop.

[Baculus]

You said nobody. Brazil is a whole country that has moved. We haven't moved to having hemp be a major part of our economy, but neither has any other country.

Essentially, I can give you what you asked for with respect to alternative energy and cars. You can't do the same for hemp.

The only models that we have in the whole world is w/ hemp being a minor contributor to the over all economy of the country. That's not the case w/ alternative fuels.

Many of the new vehicles are hybrids that still use fossil fuels.

Brazil's efforts are great and worthy of copying, but ethanol-based engines still rely upon a plant biomass for its fuel, and it's not as ideal as, say, a solid-cell battery engine or something similar. Even a suggested hemp-based fuel would be a temporary solution until more vehicles are developed that do not rely upon an actual fuel, especially one derived from plants of some sort.

But it is much better to use a biomass such as hemp for fuel instead of more plants more commonly grown for food production such as corn.

You said, "Essentially, I can give you what you asked for with respect to alternative energy and cars. You can't do the same for hemp."

I think you have missed the entire point of the discussion.

My suggestion was never that hemp was an "end-all" for products, or that a country would base all its industrial capacity upon hemp. We DO know it is very useful: Again, after all, how many plants can create clothing, fuel, paper, oils, and food? You are behaving as if we are simply fictionalizing these various uses that we have discussed.

I would gather that you really have not spent any time researching the actually uses of the plant, but more so, spent time looking for information that pertains to your own position.

Furthermore, it is an absurd argument to reject hemp as a value commodity and useful product based upon NO nation using hemp for EVERYTHING.

[roger waters]

Sorry to have misjudged you.

Can you find some information on exactly what Hemp is possible of doing that is backed up with actual research?

No problem brother. This is long but is def backed by some research.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-284.html

[Baculus]

McCain didn't mention research. The question was about medical marijuana. Your post suggested that the AMA supports it. It seems the AMA supports more research into it.

McCain rejects research and usage. In particular, this pertains to states that have allowances for doctors to prescribe marijuana to patients, while the federal government pressures these same states to stop those practices.

Marijuana, as a Class I drug, is considered a substance that should not even be considered for medical research. And you cannot deduct the value of the plant for federal medical research if such research isn't allowed to be conducted. Taking a step further, it is difficult for the federal government to change its stances it is refuses to conduct such research, nor look at research from various studies or sources.

Take the following article, which shows the slowly changing attitude towards this subject:

"Chicago, IL -- The Medical Student Section (MSS) of the American Medical Association (AMA) unanimously approved a resolution yesterday urging the AMA to support the reclassification of marijuana for medical use. The AMA is currently holding its annual conference in Chicago and is making a number of policy decisions over the next few days. The MSS will send the resolution to the AMA House of Delegates for a final vote at its interim meeting in November. With nearly 50,000 members, the MSS is the largest and most influential organization of medical students in the United States."

http://stopthedrugwar.org/in_the_trenches/2008/jun/23/press_release_medical_student_se

[Baculus]

Okay, I'll agree somewhat with that, but the basic thrust of this thread is that it is superior to already exsisting products (e.g. trees and cotton). NOT that it has some of the same uses.

Hemp is superior to cotton, in that it can produce more products then that single plant. And it is stronger then some cotton products, then I have never read any studies that compared the differences between cotton and hemp cloth.

Cotton, though, is probably superior for its most common usage, which is for creating cloth and textiles.

But the corn is being grown anyway.

Corn prices have increased due increased usage for ethanol. In turn, this has raised food prices.

Okay, this is what I don't think you've actually shown.

It has many uses, but that doesn't mean its very useful (if some other methods are individually better for all of those uses that limits its utility) and that would limit its utility as a cash crop.

One of the main issues behind using any new cash crop is the equipment used for processing. Some farmers are not going to invest in new equipment if they are already geared towards some particular crops. That is one of the main hurdles, for some farmers or agricultural industries, in switching to growing more hemp (in addition to government hurdles in some countries, such as here in the US).

Any newer industry faces such challenges, but if we balked at such challenges for every industry then we'll never have progress anywhere. Obviously, some nations deem it worth the cost and effort to overcome any such hurdles.

Again, obviously hemp is not going to supplement every cash crop, nor should it, but why ignore a plant that has the potential to generate millions, if not billions, in revenue?

[PeterMP]

Corn prices have increased due increased usage for ethanol. In turn, this has raised food prices.

As I stated originally, I'm talking about the non-food parts of corn. That's what is coming. It won't affect food prices (e.g. the stalks).

[zoony]

There seem to be two schools of thought here:

(a) Hemp is the greatest plant in the world. And the reason that hasn't been proven yet is because there is a global conspiracy against it. It seems that World Governments are not motivated by money, and instead have conspired in unison to keep hemp down because of irrational fears about kids smoking wacky tobaccy.

( Hemp might have some clear benefits, but something isn't adding up here.

I'll go with option B

[Baculus]

There seem to be two schools of thought here:

(a) Hemp is the greatest plant in the world. And the reason that hasn't been proven yet is because there is a global conspiracy against it. It seems that World Governments are not motivated by money, and instead have conspired in unison to keep hemp down because of irrational fears about kids smoking wacky tobaccy.

( Hemp might have some clear benefits, but something isn't adding up here.

I'll go with option B

Actually, the thought isn't that it is a "global conspiracy," but more so, the US government has made great efforts to continue lumping in hemp with cultivated strains of marijuana.

The only "conspiracy" are those who conspire and persist to categorize hemp with Schedule I marijuana. It does the argument no justice to ignore reality and behave as if this is some "conspiracy theory" without merit crated by some Left-wing pot smokers.

Yes, part of it is that some members of Congress as well as industrial lobbyists have "conspired in unison to keep hemp down because of irrational fears about kids smoking wacky tobaccy." Why do you think it is so difficult to even legally grow hemp for commercial purposes?

For example, all it takes is a few minutes of research, especially in regard to Dupont's role, to understand the effect that industry has had with hemp's history in the US. Dupont had a very clear objective, which was to prevent a competitor for its synthetic-based alternatives to hemp.

Hemp is an extremely useful plant: We know the byproducts that we can obtain from its cultivation. We know the reasons why it is illegal - why else do you think the US government has been reluctant to change the status of hemp for commercial purposes?

[Baculus]

As I stated originally, I'm talking about the non-food parts of corn. That's what is coming. It won't affect food prices (e.g. the stalks).

For whatever process is involved, the demand for ethanol, without a doubt, has increased the price for corn.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/30/news/economy/corn_ethanol/index.htm

(This article is from 2007. I am sure we can both agree that the price of corn has probably increased further due to the increased costs in gas.)

This article actually discusses the issue of hemp ethanol:

http://fuelandfiber.com/Hemp4NRG/Hemp4NRGRV3.htm

A few notes:

1. This study is from 2001

2. The study is for California, and includes costs for the construction of large production facilities

3. It also discusses cost vs. benefits

Now, all-in-all, this tangent may be moot if newer, better, and even cheaper technologies are developed.

[Koolblue13]

Hemp

Cellulose

Hemicellulose

Lignin

Bast

64.8 %

7.7%

4.3 %

Core

34.5 %

17.8%

20.8 %

Soft Pine

44%

26%

27.8%

Spruce

42%

27%

28.6%

Wheat Straw

34%

27.6%

18%

Rice Straw

32.1%

24.0%

12.5%

Corn Stover

28%

28%

11%

Switchgrass

32.5%

26.4%

17.8%

Chemical composition of Industrial Hemp as compared to other plant matter

[Koolblue13]

That above and this are from B's link. Good stuff.

Lignin has long been viewed as a problem in the processing of fiber, and detailed studies have revealed numerous methods of removal and degradation; commonly it is burned for process heat and power generation. Advances in gasification and turbine technologies enable on-site power and heat generation, and should be seriously considered in any full-scale proposal. Additionally, by full chemical assay and careful market evaluation numerous co-product and value-adding opportunities exist. Such assay should include a NIRS (Near Infrared Reflectance Spectroscopy) analysis, with as many varieties and conditions of material as can be gathered.

Reductions in lignin achieved by cultivation and harvest techniques, germplasm development and custom enzyme development will optimize processing output and efficiency. Incremental advances in system efficiencies related to these production improvements create a significant financial incentive for investors.

The Fuel and Fiber Company Renewable Resource System will process 300,000 to 600,000 tons of biomass per year, per facility; 25% to 35% of this will be high-value grades of core-free bast fiber. The remaining 65% to 75% of biomass will be used for the conversion process. Each facility will process input from 60,000 to 170,000 acres. Outputs are: Ethanol: 10-25 MGY (Million Gallons per Year), Fiber: 67,000 to 167,000 tons per year, and other co-products; fertilizer, animal feed, etc. to be determined. Hemp production will average 3.9 tons per acre with average costs of $520 per acre.

[rincewind]

There seem to be two schools of thought here:

(a) Hemp is the greatest plant in the world. And the reason that hasn't been proven yet is because there is a global conspiracy against it. It seems that World Governments are not motivated by money, and instead have conspired in unison to keep hemp down because of irrational fears about kids smoking wacky tobaccy.

( Hemp might have some clear benefits, but something isn't adding up here.

I'll go with option B

There doesn't seem to be much difference between the two answers provided. Can I get a C option?

[@DCGoldPants]

I was going to start a new thread about changing the Redskins name, but decided instead to SEARCH FOR AN EXISTING THREAD on a topic and add this piece here.

GOP Senate leader Mitch McConnell supports bill to legalize hemp production

By Kasie Hunt, NBC News

The federal government currently puts hemp in the same category of illegal drug as heroin, LSD and ecstasy -- but the Senate's top Republican wants to change that.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R - Ky., joined forces Thursday with a pair of West Coast Democrats -- Oregon Sens. Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley -- to cosponsor a bill that would allow American farmers to grow hemp without fear of punishment. Also on board is libertarian Rand Paul, McConnell's fellow Republican Bluegrass State senator.

“I am proud to introduce legislation with my friend Rand Paul that will allow Kentucky farmers to harness the economic potential that industrial hemp can provide,” McConnell said in a statement Thursday. "During these tough economic times, this legislation has the potential to create jobs and provide a boost to Kentucky’s economy and to our farmers and their families."

The debate over legalization of hemp is contentious in Kentucky. The Chamber of Commerce supports legalization, but some law enforcement groups say it is a step that could lead to the legalization of marijuana.

McConnell's move follows action in the Kentucky state Senate, which voted Thursday to legalize hemp production there -- if the federal government also decrees that it's legal. Oregon has approved hemp production, but farmers can still be prosecuted under federal law.

More from the link....and might I add....finally. Now farmers who are paid to grow nothing can instead grow this. Give tax breaks to processing facilities that are in the United States and close to these farms.

[Renegade7]

When I Saw Mitch was in on it, my ears perked up. Having Republican support behind something as logical as this comes across as only a matter of time till put into law (knocks on wood).

[alexey]

So what you're saying is that we can make hemp pants and then smoke 'em?

[Koolblue13]

Growing hemp was just legalized here in the VI. There are a few farms growing grasses for fuel already.

[@DCGoldPants]

So what you're saying is that we can make hemp pants and then smoke 'em?

Funny

Seriously, this COULD be the next new industry based in the United States. Imagine if instead of buy t-shirts made in China or whatever, we were exporting cheaper ones to Europe? BMW and Mercedes already are exploring and/or using Hemp in their cars. This isn't about pot. This could be about putting people to work and creating something that we would benefit from. Less use of pesticides than cotton. Less water than cotton. Healthier soil than cotton.

Its not for just hippies anymore. We should make it the product of our founders again.

[twa]

Seriously, this COULD be the next new industry based in the United States. Imagine if instead of buy t-shirts made in China or whatever, we were exporting cheaper ones to Europe? BMW and Mercedes already are exploring and/or using Hemp in their cars. This isn't about pot. This could be about putting people to work and creating something that we would benefit from. Less use of pesticides than cotton. Less water than cotton. Healthier soil than cotton.

Its not for just hippies anymore. We should make it the product of our founders again.

while I don't oppose it,why can't it be produced elsewhere cheaper?

or are we gonna have a protectionist market despite the free trade agreements.

[Corcaigh]

This seems like a silly legal artifact that we should get rid of. An analogy might be banning potatoes during prohibition because you could make vodka from them.

Industrial hemp is physically different from cannabis and useless to smoke. The claim that law enforcement might not be able to distinguish between it an cannabis suggests they would also get confused by a lot of leafy plants. A laminated card with some pictures would help take care of that. I'm sure the hemp growers association would be happy to provide it.

That said, it is a plant with a variety of uses - there's nothing magical. It's legal to grow in a number of countries and I don't think if it has transformed their economies.

[zoony]

This seems like a silly legal artifact that we should get rid of. An analogy might be banning potatoes during prohibition because you could make vodka from them.

Industrial hemp is physically different from cannabis and useless to smoke. The claim that law enforcement might not be able to distinguish between it an cannabis suggests they would also get confused by a lot of leafy plants. A laminated card with some pictures would help take care of that. I'm sure the hemp growers association would be happy to provide it.

That said, it is a plant with a variety of uses - there's nothing magical. It's legal to grow in a number of countries and I don't think if it has transformed their economies.

Agreed. The supporters of hemp are a bit delusional as to its potential. But, you are also correct in that it should be legal to cultivate

[@DCGoldPants]

I don't think other countries have the amount of farm land that we're paying to not grow anything on, or the cotton industry that is expensive to maintain, or the amount of imported goods we've got going on here. Its not going to change the world. But it can make a big difference in a country this big. What's wrong with wanting the fabric in my car to be grown here, processed here, installed here, and more durable that most of what's being used now?