Brooks vs Frost

[turbodiesel#44]

Here are the punters drafted in just the last three seasons:

2007

Adam Podlesh - Jags 4th round

Daniel Sepulveda - Steelers 4th round

Brandon Fields - Dolphins 7th round

All three made the club and have higher career averages than Frost.

2006

Sam Koch - Ravens 6th round

Ryan Plackemeier - Seahawks 7th round

Both made the club and have higher career punting averages than Frost

2005

Dustin Colquitt - Chiefs 3rd round

Reggie Hodges - Rams 6th round

Both made the club, Colquitt is a stud while Hodges punted poorly and was cut midway through first year.

So in actuality drafting punters has been a good move and 6 of the 7 drafted in the last 3 seasons are better than Frost. I suggest you take a look at the offensive linemen drafted in the 6th round and see what percentage ever end up starting.

Podlesh is better than Frost? Beats his average by 0.6 yds and net by 0.5. How is this better than Frosts ability to kickoff and tackle overall?

Sepulveda edges Frost by 1.4 yds avg and 1.5 net.

Fields beats Frost by 2.2 yds, but only 0.2 yards net. Thats about 6 1/2 inches.

You too have totally ignored the intangibles I have based my argument on, so I'm not going to bother to look up each of the other guys. Do you think ANY of those teams would blow a pick to replace their guy with a one or two yard advantage? I don't think so. How about if they had a Tackle who couldn't block? How about if their star Safety was gunned down in his prime? How about if they have questionable WR talent? Do you think they would use the draft to get a yard advantage on punts if both their lines were so old they get discounts at McDonalds? Would you still go for a punter? How many of those guys hit? How many have kicked off in the NFL? How many of those guys have established a successful multi-year relationship and comfort level with their placekicker and longsnapper?

I don't see drafting any of these guys over Frost a "good move" unless you like to throw away picks.

[tml6157]

Podlesh is better than Frost? Beats his average by 0.6 yds and net by 0.5. How is this better than Frosts ability to kickoff and tackle overall?

Sepulveda edges Frost by 1.4 yds avg and 1.5 net.

Fields beats Frost by 2.2 yds, but only 0.2 yards net. Thats about 6 1/2 inches.

You too have totally ignored the intangibles I have based my argument on, so I'm not going to bother to look up each of the other guys. Do you think ANY of those teams would blow a pick to replace their guy with a one or two yard advantage? I don't think so. How about if they had a Tackle who couldn't block? How about if their star Safety was gunned down in his prime? How about if they have questionable WR talent? Do you think they would use the draft to get a yard advantage on punts if both their lines were so old they get discounts at McDonalds? Would you still go for a punter? How many of those guys hit? How many have kicked off in the NFL? How many of those guys have established a successful multi-year relationship and comfort level with their placekicker and longsnapper?

I don't see drafting any of these guys over Frost a "good move" unless you like to throw away picks.

Dude GET OVER the tackling aspect. If Frost had hang time there is no need for him to tackle anyone. Oh wait Brooks does have hang time so there is your answer. Who gives a **** if our punter can tackle better then a rookie punter. Cooley throws a spiral. OMG!!!!!!! Your arguments get worse everyday.

"Yeah but..but..but..Frost has cool last name" will be your next one

[turbodiesel#44]

Dude GET OVER the tackling aspect. If Frost had hang time there is no need for him to tackle anyone. Oh wait Brooks does have hang time so there is your answer. Who gives a **** if our punter can tackle better then a rookie punter. Cooley throws a spiral. OMG!!!!!!! Your arguments get worse everyday.

"Yeah but..but..but..Frost has cool last name" will be your next one

Cooleys passing ability would be a factor if he were ever used at QB. Your statement is inane. Frost had a dozen kickoffs when Hall was ailing 2 years ago. Are you on the debate team at your day care?

[tml6157]

Cooleys passing ability would be a factor if he were ever used at QB. Your statement is inane. Frost had a dozen kickoffs when Hall was ailing 2 years ago. Are you on the debate team at your day care?

Are you Mrs. Frost? How do you know Brooks can't do the same if need be? I commented about your tackling argument not his kick offs. My argument is far from insane. If a punter has hangtime it allows NO return. Then a punter has NO need to be in a position to tackle someone. Frost has NO hangtime which allows for his big returns against him. Frost HAS hangtime which allows NO return. Point. Set. Match! Brooks!

[bushwack]

Are you Mrs. Frost? How do you know Brooks can't do the same if need be? I commented about your tackling argument not his kick offs. My argument is far from insane. If a punter has hangtime it allows NO return. Then a punter has NO need to be in a position to tackle someone. Frost has NO hangtime which allows for his big returns against him. Brooks HAS hangtime which allows NO return. Point. Set. Match! Brooks!

There I fixed it for you...I don't want turbodiesel44 getting confused or twisting your words around, so hopefully he'll understand your argument now.

[turbodiesel#44]

There I fixed it for you...I don't want turbodiesel44 getting confused or twisting your words around, so hopefully he'll understand your argument now.

The net yardage incorporates the return. Do I have to explain football to you?

[bushwack]

The net yardage incorporates the return. Do I have to explain football to you?

I understand that, and that's why Brooks has a better NET average then what Frost has.

Through 3 games Brooks net average has been:

vs. Indy-33.5

vs. NYJ-33.8

vs. Jac-37

Overall net avg-34.5

Through 3 games Frost net average has been:

vs. Buf-22.8

vs. Car-37.1

vs. Jac-32

Overall net avg-32.3

Also I'm tired of hearing Frost can do the kickoffs, we won't need anyone to do the kickoffs this year or anytime soon with Suisham kicking the ball the way he is. As for Frost tackling, yes he made great hits, even he made one vs. Carolina after his 64 yard punt, then the genius decided to take his helmet off while he was still on the field and got away with a 15 yard penalty there. I haven't seen Brooks be inconsistent in his play, or lose his cool on the field like Frost has done multiple times.

[mcjunken]

The net yardage incorporates the return. Do I have to explain football to you?

Right, but Brook's net avg is better.

[mcjunken]

I understand that, and that's why Brooks has a better NET average then what Frost has.

Through 3 games Brooks net average has been:

vs. Indy-33.5

vs. NYJ-33.8

vs. Jac-37

Overall net avg-34.5

Through 3 games Frost net average has been:

vs. Buf-22.8

vs. Car-37.1

vs. Jac-32

Overall net avg-32.3

Also I'm tired of hearing Frost can do the kickoffs, we won't need anyone to do the kickoffs this year or anytime soon with Suisham kicking the ball the way he is. As for Frost tackling, yes he made great hits, even he made one vs. Carolina after his 64 yard punt, then the genius decided to take his helmet off while he was still on the field and got away with a 15 yard penalty there. I haven't seen Brooks be inconsistent in his play, or lose his cool on the field like Frost has done multiple times.

Actually, Frost didn't make a tackle on that punt. He just speared Albright (who had already taken care of the tackle) and THEN ripped his helmet off.

[turbodiesel#44]

Right, but Brook's net avg is better.

Granted. But the small increase does not outweigh the intangibles or Suishams comfort level with Frost IMO. And if you watched the games so far, the sloppy tackling skews that number further with such a small sampling. You cannot blame Frost for all the missed tackles, and I could identify many bad angles taken by our scrubs. And this net difference certainly does not warrant the waste of a pick when you look at tackles that SHOULD have been made.

I haven't seen any numbers by a rookie punter that outweigh Frost overall. But that's just my opinion. The real test will be when Brooks is selected. Will Swishy start missing more kicks? You can deny it, but Frost helped Albright to the pro bowl.

[sableholic]

I can't believe someone is bringing tackling and kickoff ability into the discussion about punters. The best punters in the league aren't the guys who are tackling the best or who do spot duty on kickoffs. Tackling really shouldn't be considered a plus, if he's tackling guys it means either our coverage sucks or he outkicked the coverage and a big return is happening (or both).

[NomadicSkinFan]

The net yardage incorporates the return. Do I have to explain football to you?

Diesel,

You keep harping the same things over and over again (intangibles... tackling... kickoffs). No one would consider these factors when drafting a punter unless their kicker really stinks on kickoffs. And unless he is stellar at field goals, I'd imagine the team would be looking for kicker too. The only way these come into the conversation is if you have two punters that are basically identical and you are looking for a tie breaker.

You have also talked about veteran vs. rookie is regards to the mental aspects of the game. What have you seen that gives you the impression that Frost's experience has somehow given him the edge there? Is it his inconsistency? Is it how he droops his head or grabs his helmet after a bad punt? Is it him running down the field full speed to make a tackle and celebrating like a rookie? I actually find his tackling skills to be frightening. There is NO ONE on the field that wears less protection than the punter. I'd prefer if our punter does not put himself in harms way unless he has to. Wouldn't that be great if Frost runs down the field and makes a tackle that someone else could have/would have made, but injures himself? How would you feel about his skill now? Does Colt tackle better then Jason after an interception? Should he start because of it?

But all this aside, you need only watch the games to understand that while the averages may be close, the reality of the situation is not. A punter that punts 60 and 30(shank) would have the same average as a punter that punts 45 and 45. While those 60 yard punts sometimes help you, those shanks almost always come back to hurt you. Brooks has demonstrated better consistency and just as much potential to boom one as Frost. Not to mention, his hang time has been consistently better. Will Brooks be head and shoulders above Frost in time? Guess we'll have to wait and see. But as far as Frost is concerned, he has improved over the last 3 years... but it took that improvement just to TIE Brooks. 3 years should be long enough to know what you have in a punter.

[ouvan59]

Podlesh is better than Frost? Beats his average by 0.6 yds and net by 0.5. How is this better than Frosts ability to kickoff and tackle overall?

Do you think ANY of those teams would blow a pick to replace their guy with a one or two yard advantage? I don't think so.

Frost's ability to kickoff and tackle? Are you serious? His kickoff statistics are terrible. His average kickoff goes to the 16 yard line and the average return on his kickoffs is 22.2 yards meaning that after his average kickoff the other team is starting outside the 38 yard line. Shaun Suisham, who most people say must improve his kickoffs, kicks his down to the 10 with an average return out to the 30.

And that's great he can tackle but can you honestly say you know a damn thing about any of the other punter's listed tackling ability?

And what the hell are you talking about any of those teams "blowing" a pick on a punter who only punts it a yard or two farther? They did. They all used draft picks on punters sometimes much higher picks than we did. You keep ignoring the fact that the average punter who gets drafted makes the team and obviously is the starter. The average 6th rounder at other positions gets cut. Gloss over that all you want and then completely ignore every single time that Derrick Frost hits a 20 yard punt in a big situation or makes a great tackle (overlooking the fact that on some of those it's because he had zero hangtime).

And by the way, the expectation isn't that Durant Brooks will outkick Frost by a yard or two. By the time he has Frost's experience he will be outkicking him by 4 or 5 yards.

[mcjunken]

And this net difference certainly does not warrant the waste of a pick when you look at tackles that SHOULD have been made.

Okay, I'll give you that. Skins fans can legitimately be upset by the idea that the FO wasted a pick on a punter when they could have gotten some depth at another position for that pick. The problem is that this pick has not been wasted until you cut Brooks before week 1. If you keep him, it's an investment. If you had a rookie WR who has performed at least as well as a veteran starter at his position, you wouldn't think of cutting the rookie because of his potential upside. Of course, you wouldn't have spent that draft pick if you thought your vet's performance had been sufficient, all intangibles included.

[turbodiesel#44]

I see one of our starting tackles questionable as a backup. I see us very thin a CB. I see both our lines as aging and injury prone. We are thin at LB. We drafted a couple WR's, but the one who has played has shown squat, and the other is still an unknown quantity. Our starting WR's this year did NOTHING last year. Our safety depth is a concern. These guys play full series on the field, and have a far greater impact on results of a game than a couple yard advantage on punts ever will. It was foolish to draft a punter IMO.

Frost is consistently in the middle third of punters statistic-wise throughout his career so far, and seems to be improving. Kickers don't progress the same as other positions, and I think that is due to the mental aspect of the game. I think we could have used that pick to help the team in a far greater way than trying to upgrade an average punter.

[bulldog]

the fact remains that Frost is not consistent, either in his hangtime or in his ability to punt under pressure. when this team is in a tight game and needs a boomer, Frost has on a number of occasions come up with shanks that have really cost the Redskins.

this guy reminds me of Curt Knight in the 1970's. when competition was brought in he played well and was capable of rallying himself to make the roster. But during the season he would go through stretches where he he missed 2 or 3 field goals in a single game that cost a key victory or two.

it wasn't until Mark Moseley came to Washington that the Redskins got the kind of CONSISTENT plackicking you need on a contending team.

Brooks doesn't hold as well as Frost. So what?

Have Todd Collins hold for PATs and FGs. Most teams around the NFL have backup qbs handle these duties anyway.

The Redskins need to take the long-term view here. We have seen Frost for 3 years, he is what we have seen.

He is going to have some great games and then he is going to have some klunkers each season.

[Veretax]

Madden was saying some Garbage last night about Frost had to make it cause he's the holder. Is being a Holder such a hard job? Couldn't they teach COllins or Brennan to do it?

[TANAMAN]

The problem I've seen with Frost is that during this competition he's tried to show that he has as big of a leg as the rookie, and that has been his biggest mistake. A 65 yard punt from Frost is great and Brooks could match it, but when you out kick your coverage by 12 yards allowing a 20-30 yard return it's useless.

We haven't seen the biggest punts from Brooks because he hasn't relly needed to boom one, yet even though Frost didn't need to either he did and we paid for it, which was a rookie mistake IMO. I saw Brooks kick live in the collegiate punting competition during the skills competition and he hit one nearly 70 yards. So he has the leg but he also has the smarts to know it's not about how far you kick the ball, but how you time your kick with your coverage negating returns. The following link is to Brooks' scouting page from NFL.com where I found his stats to be very interesting (for a punter). http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/durant-brooks?id=1683

The kid had 144 punts in college, only 20 were touchbacks, 68 were downed inside the 20, he forced 30 fair catches, and had 52 returned for only 275 yards (a 5.3 yard avg.), giving him a 40.63 net avg. in his career. That's impressive if you ask me. And we haven't seen anything yet to say he won't do the same at the NFL level, but we have seen plenty to say Frost won't on a consistent basis, and that shank during yesterdays game was just another example. I want the best and most consistent punter to win the job and I could care less who it is, I have no ties to either, but at this point I believe it to be Brooks.

[NomadicSkinFan]

I see one of our starting tackles questionable as a backup. I see us very thin a CB. I see both our lines as aging and injury prone. We are thin at LB. We drafted a couple WR's, but the one who has played has shown squat, and the other is still an unknown quantity. Our starting WR's this year did NOTHING last year. Our safety depth is a concern. These guys play full series on the field, and have a far greater impact on results of a game than a couple yard advantage on punts ever will. It was foolish to draft a punter IMO.

This discussion was not/is not about whether the Skins should have drafted a punter. If you want to make that argument, I'm sure you wouldn't have as many people against you as you currently do. However, unless you have a time machine, your point is completely moot. The draft pick spent on Brooks is a sunk cost. No matter what we do, we won't be given that pick back.

[tml6157]

Granted. But the small increase does not outweigh the intangibles or Suishams comfort level with Frost IMO. And if you watched the games so far, the sloppy tackling skews that number further with such a small sampling. You cannot blame Frost for all the missed tackles, and I could identify many bad angles taken by our scrubs. And this net difference certainly does not warrant the waste of a pick when you look at tackles that SHOULD have been made.

I haven't seen any numbers by a rookie punter that outweigh Frost overall. But that's just my opinion. The real test will be when Brooks is selected. Will Swishy start missing more kicks? You can deny it, but Frost helped Albright to the pro bowl.

How do you know how comfortable Suisham is with Frost compared to Brooks. Unless you are Mrs. Frost :laugh:

You act like every time Suisham kicks with Brooks he misses. You have a new "line" of the day. First it was show me a punter who has been good with the original team that drafted them. So I showed you a list of them. And that 7 of the last 10 probowl punters were with the team that they first signed with. Now you need it narrowed down to rookies. Mrs. Frost give it up you are getting owned!

[mcjunken]

As far as I can tell, this issue of Brooks not being a good holder is a bunch of hooey. When he was at GT, Brooks was the holder for Travis Bell, who in 2007 was 1st team all-ACC kicker and has the all-time GT record for FG percentage. So, the idea that Brooks can't hold for FGs is a bit contrived.

[tml6157]

The problem I've seen with Frost is that during this competition he's tried to show that he has as big of a leg as the rookie, and that has been his biggest mistake. A 65 yard punt from Frost is great and Brooks could match it, but when you out kick your coverage by 12 yards allowing a 20-30 yard return it's useless.

We haven't seen the biggest punts from Brooks because he hasn't relly needed to boom one, yet even though Frost didn't need to either he did and we paid for it, which was a rookie mistake IMO. I saw Brooks kick live in the collegiate punting competition during the skills competition and he hit one nearly 70 yards. So he has the leg but he also has the smarts to know it's not about how far you kick the ball, but how you time your kick with your coverage negating returns. The following link is to Brooks' scouting page from NFL.com where I found his stats to be very interesting (for a punter). http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/durant-brooks?id=1683

The kid had 144 punts in college, only 20 were touchbacks, 68 were downed inside the 20, he forced 30 fair catches, and had 52 returned for only 275 yards (a 5.3 yard avg.), giving him a 40.63 net avg. in his career. That's impressive if you ask me. And we haven't seen anything yet to say he won't do the same at the NFL level, but we have seen plenty to say Frost won't on a consistent basis, and that shank during yesterdays game was just another example. I want the best and most consistent punter to win the job and I could care less who it is, I have no ties to either, but at this point I believe it to be Brooks.

End of thread!

[tml6157]

As far as I can tell, this issue of Brooks not being a good holder is a bunch of hooey. When he was at GT, Brooks was the holder for Travis Bell, who in 2007 was 1st team all-ACC kicker and has the all-time GT record for FG percentage. So, the idea that Brooks can't hold for FGs is a bit contrived.

Once again.....Diesel Ownage :notworthy

[SonOfWashington]

Madden was saying some Garbage last night about Frost had to make it cause he's the holder. Is being a Holder such a hard job? Couldn't they teach COllins or Brennan to do it?

Ask Tony Romo sits to pee. :laugh:

[tml6157]

Ask Tony Romo sits to pee. :laugh:

Hahahaha nice!