Pat Kirwan's View of Offensive Line

[PlayAction]

Pat Kirwan's take: NFL people are pleased with the number of solid tackle candidates in this year's draft, but the rich talent pool will dry up before all the clubs in need of a tackle get a chance to select one. There are six tackles with first-round grades and another three with solid second-round grades, but by my count 15 teams need to take a tackle in the first day of the draft. The supply might not meet the need this year.

If a team comes into the 2008 draft looking for a guard or center, the bad news is there isn't much talent. As one NFL line coach said when I asked him to grade the guards and centers: "I don't like to give an F so let's just say it is C-minus at best."

The truth is that a number of coaches are looking to the rich tackle pool of talent to perhaps uncover a better guard or center candidate than the ones they have seen in workouts. A guy like Sam Baker from USC might be the seventh-ranked tackle on some draft boards but he might be the third guard prospect. And I'm pretty sure a few teams believe they could turn the four-year starter into a terrific center, too. Another coach mentioned Toledo's John Greco, a college tackle, as a candidate for the inside positions.

It isn't true that every tackle who fails on the outside can just move inside and excel. The NFL tackles are big and powerful, and if these offensive tackles moving inside can't anchor and stop power, they can't play inside.

I have ranked the top 10 tackles that should all be gone by the end of the second round and the top five guards and centers, some of whom might not hear their name called until late in the fifth round. I have watched most of the players for at least two game tapes watched the men who were at the Senior Bowl and interviewed many of them in the last two months.

Here's his projection of draft for OTs, OGs and Centers:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d807bafd0&template=with-video&confirm=true

I know everyone is high on Alberts as he would fill a need for Guard and can also play Tackle. But we can't count on him being available at 21. Skins may want to take one of these Tackles anyway.

[phishisthegreatstuff]

why is he ranked so high? all the other OL have more reps and about the same or better 40 times.

[bushwack]

I don't see the tackle position being a need or concern for the Skins in this year's draft. However, we do need a guard/center combo player, but I can't see the Skins drafting a guard unless Albert is available, which by now everyone knows that is not going to happen. The Skins have to take a guard/center player with one of their top 4 picks, but I don't see it happening in the 1st round.

[Chump Bailey]

I would love to get Chris Williams or Baker. I believe the talk of Albert going in the top ten.

[MartinC]

why is he ranked so high? all the other OL have more reps and about the same or better 40 times.

You dont play football in a gym. There is much more to being a good football player than being a good athlete.

[adamyesme1111]

why is he ranked so high? all the other OL have more reps and about the same or better 40 times.

Because he is better at playing FOOTBALL, it doesn't matter how much you bench or how fast you run the 40. It matters whether you play FOOTBALL.

[jweisk1]

is it just me or did the media seem to play a huge role in Albert's stock rising...he was predicted to go at the end of the 1st. Then I saw a few articles on ESPN/NFL that mentioned the importance of O-Line and now all of a sudden he is ranked as a top ten prospect...does anyone agree with me here??

[MartinC]

is it just me or did the media seem to play a huge role in Albert's stock rising...he was predicted to go at the end of the 1st. Then I saw a few articles on ESPN/NFL that mentioned the importance of O-Line and now all of a sudden he is ranked as a top ten prospect...does anyone agree with me here??

I just can't see him being a top 10 pick. The rational seems to be teams are looking at him as a tackle and thus ranking him higher. I read he played 3 games at tackle in College. 3. He might turn out to be the next Jonathan Ogden but it seems a reach to take a guy in the top 10 based on a hope that he might be a left tackle.

I don't think he is going to drop to us at #21 but I also don't think he will go top 10.

Re the media - I think they have about as much clue whats going to happen as the more informed people on this board i.e not much.

[jweisk1]

I just can't see him being a top 10 pick. The rational seems to be teams are looking at him as a tackle and thus ranking him higher. I read he played 3 games at tackle in College. 3. He might turn out to be the next Jonathan Ogden but it seems a reach to take a guy in the top 10 based on a hope that he might be a left tackle.

I don't think he is going to drop to us at #21 but I also don't think he will go top 10.

Re the media - I think they have about as much clue whats going to happen as the more informed people on this board i.e not much.

I agree but if you look at 95% of the mocks before the article on espn.com, he always seemed to go to the Steelers as a replacement for Fanaca. In recent mocks I havent seen him fall below 20...just seems like the media is basing there projections on what ESPN said rather than do there own homework.

[The Sisko]

I guess a lot depends on whether teams really believe Albert can play LT or not. His agent seems to want to sell the LT story. I like him as a guard but I don't think he's ever going to be an elite LT.

[dfbovey]

is it just me or did the media seem to play a huge role in Albert's stock rising...he was predicted to go at the end of the 1st. Then I saw a few articles on ESPN/NFL that mentioned the importance of O-Line and now all of a sudden he is ranked as a top ten prospect...does anyone agree with me here??

Or the media is taking note because he deserves the attention as the best Guard prospect in the draft.

Players stock rise and fall at this point in the off season because this is the time where you see what players are visiting which teams. And with that comes little information leaks and clues as to where these players MIGHT be going.

Projections are certainly much more accurate at this time of year than they would have been prior to the combine... which is when Albert was projected late 1st round.

[jweisk1]

Or the media is taking note because he deserves the attention as the best Guard prospect in the draft.

Players stock rise and fall at this point in the off season because this is the time where you see what players are visiting which teams. And with that comes little information leaks and clues as to where these players MIGHT be going.

so all of a sudden during the off-season when he is not playing, his stock has risen...it has nothing do the media (mostly ESPN) writing a huge article on the importance of guards and then he jumps from high 1st round pick to a possible top 10 pick...it must be a huge coincidence huh?

[xX2PORTIS6Xx]

I would love if the skins drafted Albert, I had him on my first mock, but his stock is rising, probably a top 15 pick.

[dfbovey]

so all of a sudden during the off-season when he is not playing, his stock has risen...it has nothing do the media (mostly ESPN) writing a huge article on the importance of guards and then he jumps from high 1st round pick to a possible top 10 pick...it must be a huge coincidence huh?

This kind of thing happens every year. Can you refute what I said? Players rise and fall as the draft comes closer. Guys like Alan Branch were predicted to be top 5 picks early in the offseason, Aaron Rodgers... Thurman Thomas... and on and on. It has more to do with what the player personel people think than what a sports writer thinks.

Guards have been increasing in value across the board. Bigger salaries and level of interest in free agency... it was only a matter of time before that bled over into the draft. IMO all the ESPN article stated was the obvious trend that the NFL has set over the past two seasons.

The trends wrote the article, ESPN isn't setting the trend.

[PlayAction]

The agents work hard to get the hype machine going. A few years ago a QB (Matt Roth) converted to WR and rocketed up the boards based upon the hype after the combine. In his case, the agent hyped him far above his ability.

Alberts will rise for no other reason than he's the best G in a weak Guard class. I have a hard time believing he's a better Tackle than all the other guys that have played Tackle during their college careers when the Tackles are getting legitimate first round grades from scouts. If Skins can't get Alberts, I'm wondering if Bugel isn't looking into converting a Tackle prospect into a Guard.

[TheLongshot]

Alberts will rise for no other reason than he's the best G in a weak Guard class. I have a hard time believing he's a better Tackle than all the other guys that have played Tackle during their college careers when the Tackles are getting legitimate first round grades from scouts. If Skins can't get Alberts, I'm wondering if Bugel isn't looking into converting a Tackle prospect into a Guard.

I don't think his rise has much to do with his ability to play tackle. At least, I don't think people are looking to convert him into a tackle. I think his rise is strongly related to the fact that guards are pulling in big money in FA. Therefore, the value of good guards have gone up in the draft.

While you might think that's silly, we also thought the kind of money Dockery got was also silly, but it seems to be becoming the norm.

Jason

[Walking Deadman]

Playaction.

His name is Branden Albert not Alberts.

Not being a spelling nazi or anything, just an FYI

And I will continue to say that Mayock and Kiper (and others) read ES, b/c I didn't see anybody talking about him until after we started the "Please draft Branden Albert threads" and how great he could be as either a tackle or guard

[Aireskoi]

There are many reason players move up and down the mock draft boards. Players get noticed from weeks of film study, when players backgrounds and lives get scrutinized some flaws are found, injuries or possible medical issues are discovered, guys with high character are discovered and elevated, etc.

I think the watching film was the factor with Branden Albert. Pat Kirwan is not your typical media guy, he was a GM and was employed by NFL teams for 30 years. He watches the film and talks to the college players, their teammates, their coaches, front office guys in the league, scouts, and NFL coaches.

He said Albert was thrown in at LT for the first time mid-game and did a great job including making all of the line calls. The next week with a chance to practice at the position he did even better. When you take the guy who you have ranked as the best guard, and then realize he is maybe the second best LT in the draft, you have to move him way up the board.

Basically, the difference in the first mocks and the latest mocks is the fact that they have time to watch all of the film. Remember, no NFL team puts out a mock draft, we don't know who really moves up or down on their boards.

I think ES led the way on the love fest with Albert because he is a local talent and so many of our members have watched him play. I'm sure this happens to other teams with their local guys.

[robotfire]

The agents work hard to get the hype machine going. A few years ago a QB (Matt Roth) converted to WR and rocketed up the boards based upon the hype after the combine. In his case, the agent hyped him far above his ability.

Matt Roth plays defensive end for the Dolphins. You meant Matt Jones.

[PlayAction]

Matt Roth plays defensive end for the Dolphins. You meant Matt Jones.

Jeez - lots of typos in this thread for me. I should have left Kirwan's article as is. It was an interesting read. I'm tired of waiting for the draft but then I read the Post reported that the Skins are just turning towards creating their draft board for the Offense!

[redman]

why is he ranked so high? all the other OL have more reps and about the same or better 40 times.

40 times? For an o-linemen? That's critical because of all those important sprints they have to do, right? :laugh:

It comes down to strength, atleticism and technique, as well as ability to learn the offense. Also, the competition these guys faced in college isn't the same, as with for example the Boise State guy.

[jweisk1]

This kind of thing happens every year. Can you refute what I said? Players rise and fall as the draft comes closer. Guys like Alan Branch were predicted to be top 5 picks early in the offseason, Aaron Rodgers... Thurman Thomas... and on and on. It has more to do with what the player personel people think than what a sports writer thinks.

Guards have been increasing in value across the board. Bigger salaries and level of interest in free agency... it was only a matter of time before that bled over into the draft. IMO all the ESPN article stated was the obvious trend that the NFL has set over the past two seasons.

The trends wrote the article, ESPN isn't setting the trend.

I agree that that players rise and fall I just fing it interesting that Brandon Albert was projected so high initially and then directly after that ESPN article his stock rose dramatically...I do agree that guards have been valued higher, as we see with there salaries...look at our boy Derrick Dockery...but if that was the case you would assume that he would have been projected a top ten prospect from the beginning....

[cphil006]

The only guard I'd draft in the first round is Branden Albert, but he will most likely be gone.

[Aireskoi]

I agree that that players rise and fall I just fing it interesting that Brandon Albert was projected so high initially and then directly after that ESPN article his stock rose dramatically...I do agree that guards have been valued higher, as we see with there salaries...look at our boy Derrick Dockery...but if that was the case you would assume that he would have been projected a top ten prospect from the beginning....

Albert is being ranked by Pat Kirwan as the #2 LT in the draft.

In his latest mock he has this to say about him:

"Albert is a young talent with the skills to play left tackle for a long time."

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story;jsessionid=1FC94E850C7930432B964901C2C6A578?id=09000d5d807c192b&template=with-video&confirm=true

That's why he is moving up. In fact, he may be the best LT in the draft. In the same mock draft he seems less sure about Jake Long playing LT:

"Whether Long can play on the left side or not, he will establish a point of attack for the run game. People who have worked with Long believe he can play on the left side."

[Jimbo]

The only guard I'd draft in the first round is Branden Albert, but he will most likely be gone.

The one intriguing guy that COULD creep into the first round is Sam Baker. Although he played LT at USC, he supposedly has short arms and is projected as a guy who could play Guard for a LONG time in the NFL.

Putting him at LG, knowing he started a LOT of games at LT and could play there in a pinch, is a luxury a lot of teams would like to have. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Skins went this route.

Another guy who could possibly be turned into a Guard is Gosder Cherilus. While he is really projected as a RT, he's a kid with a great attitude who wants to be a great player and is supposedly VERY coachable. It might be a bit of a reach to try and throw him in as a Guard but he's supposedly a bit of a mauler and would be an asset in the running game. His experience as a Tackle would likely help his pass blocking as well.

The Skins taking either of these guys is a longshot because neither has extensive experience at Guard but with Joe Bugel coaching 'em up, I suppose anything is possible.