Obama Comes Out Against Concealed Carry of Firearms

[RDSKNfaithfull]

None.

How many mass-murdering, suicidal, rampages have you committed?

Now, do you have something that's actually logically applicable to the discussion?

Believe it or not you can get out of a bad situation without a gun.

How many times have you said I'm glad I didn't have my gun or I would shot that knucklehead in the heat of the moment?

[Zguy28]

Barack Obama on Gun Control

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok

Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions.

Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers

Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcin and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent.When I queried him about the vote, he said, "I didn't find that [vote] surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms."

It wasn't until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police.

Source: From Promise to Power, by David Mendell, p.250-251 Aug 14, 2007

[RDSKNfaithfull]

How many times has someone pointed a gun at you? How many times have you been followed down a dark alley or road? The world is a dangerous place and chances are in YOUR lifetime that you will have the opportunity to defend yourself in one way or another.

I have actually been shot in the leg point blank range while my car was parked down a dark alley. Guess what I'm alive if I would have had a gun I would have been in a gun fight and dead considering there was 4 car jackers and they shot two of my friends in the leg as well.

[Larry]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the correlation.

It was one place where muggers could go, where they knew that their victims (people coming out of an airport) wouldn't be armed.

(After they beefed up security at airports, to keep criminals from annoying out-of-state tourists, they then had an increase in robberies where the criminal would intentionally cause a minor traffic accident with rental cars. Again under the assumption that people driving rental cars were most likely out-of-state, and were therefore most likely unarmed. They had to stop putting special license plates on rental cars.)

Criminals actually go out of their way to avoid armed victims. (For some reason.)

[KevinthePRF]

exactly. why shouldnt law abiding citizens be able to conceal their weapons when the criminals can? it doesnt make any sense.

if you notice, most shootings happen in 'gun free' zones. for example the mall in utah, every school shooting ever, the virginia tech shootings.

those are areas where guns have already been taken away, but still the violence continues. people should have the right to protect themselves in the direst of circumstances.

Now I am personally torn on the issue of gun control. But there is no need to make stuff up to prove a point. Mall and school shootings represent a minimal amount of gun violence. It just gets the most press because shootings in violent crime areas are much more common.

[Larry]

Believe it or not you can get out of a bad situation without a gun.

How many times have you said I'm glad I didn't have my gun or I would shot that knucklehead in the heat of the moment?

Never.

So, is that your entire schtick? Dreaming up hypothetical situations and then trying to imply that since they've never personally happened to me, that means they don't exist?

I've never been the victim of a home invasion, either? Want to claim they don't happen? Never been raped. Nor have I ever seen one in progress. Never been carjacked. Never been murdered.

And this proves . . . ?

[THEArmchairQB]

Now I am personally torn on the issue of gun control. But there is no need to make stuff up to prove a point. Mall and school shootings represent a minimal amount of gun violence. It just gets the most press because shootings in violent crime areas are much more common.

You're right, I should have worded that differently. Obviously many shootings involve violent crimes, but those are not the ones I am talking about. Those shootings involving gangs, drugs, and robberies are not the ones I meant to address. I meant to point out the shootings where unarmed innocents are harmed by crazed gunmen.

[Larry]

Now I am personally torn on the issue of gun control. But there is no need to make stuff up to prove a point. Mall and school shootings represent a minimal amount of gun violence. It just gets the most press because shootings in violent crime areas are much more common.

But mall and school shootings are the reason being given for why law-abiding citizens must be made defenseless.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

It was one place where muggers could go, where they knew that their victims (people coming out of an airport) wouldn't be armed.

(After they beefed up security at airports, to keep criminals from annoying out-of-state tourists, they then had an increase in robberies where the criminal would intentionally cause a minor traffic accident with rental cars. Again under the assumption that people driving rental cars were most likely out-of-state, and were therefore most likely unarmed. They had to stop putting special license plates on rental cars.)

Criminals actually go out of their way to avoid armed victims. (For some reason.)

I don't think the main reason they go after rental cars is because they feel the victim will not have a gun as much as they know that people traveling usually carry more money especially in the 90's, when they stoped putting special license plates on the rentals.

[BigMike619]

But mall and school shootings are the reason being given for why law-abiding citizens must be made defenseless.

How about battered women? Bullied people? Women who are stalked? People who have been raped? Private detectives?

There are a million reasons for people to legitimately need a firearm. I dont know if I would want to get in a gun fight with a maniac in a mall who is strapped down and shooting his automatic weapon randomly.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Never.

So, is that your entire schtick? Dreaming up hypothetical situations and then trying to imply that since they've never personally happened to me, that means they don't exist? I've never been the victim of a home invasion, either? Want to claim they don't happen? Never been raped. Nor have I ever seen one in progress. Never been carjacked. Never been murdered.

And this proves . . . ?

It proves nothing other than that unless you live in a really bad neighborhood you may be a bit paranoid :whoknows:

btw I'm not trying to be a jerk I just think there is more good that can be done by not having guns than there is by having them. If you want to keep one in your house as you suggested a home invasion I see nothing wrong with that but that is a whole different story than carrying a concealed gun around in public and that is what promted my original broad brush comment.Since you brought up hypothetical situations that is some of the reason "hypothetical situations" you have given to carry your gun.

[Larry]

I dont know if I would want to get in a gun fight with a maniac in a mall who is strapped down and shooting his automatic weapon randomly.

1) OK, so we're back to talking about the event that almost never happens?

2) I certainly would (want to get in a gun fight). Absolutely.

And I don't even own a concealable weapon. (I own my Daddy's deer rifle, and his shotgun, neither of which I've fired in a decade.)

But the homicidal maniac in a school/shopping center/whatever is going to keep killing people until he dies. He expects to. Heck, most of them kill themselves as soon as the cops show up.

That stereotypical maniac is going to kill, and keep killing, until he dies. The best thing that can happen is, he dies quickly. If I can shoot him now, I may save 30 lives. It's a no brainer.

-----

Now, in the much more likely case where somebody comes up to me at the ATM and tells me to give him my cash, then would I wish for a gun fight? I doubt it. I'd give him the cash.

[BigMike619]

1) OK, so we're back to talking about the event that almost never happens?

2) I certainly would (want to get in a gun fight). Absolutely.

And I don't even own a concealable weapon. (I own my Daddy's deer rifle, and his shotgun, neither of which I've fired in a decade.)

But the homicidal maniac in a school/shopping center/whatever is going to keep killing people until he dies. He expects to. Heck, most of them kill themselves as soon as the cops show up.

That stereotypical maniac is going to kill, and keep killing, until he dies. The best thing that can happen is, he dies quickly. If I can shoot him now, I may save 30 lives. It's a no brainer.

-----

Now, in the much more likely case where somebody comes up to me at the ATM and tells me to give him my cash, then would I wish for a gun fight? I doubt it. I'd give him the cash.

Larry, I gave 5 reasons as to why we SHOULD carry a gun. I just said that for my personal reasons of not wanting to get shot I dont know if I would trade gunfire with him. I didnt say that you shouldnt or couldnt. Please calm down for me and dont taze me bro..

[KevinthePRF]

You're right, I should have worded that differently. Obviously many shootings involve violent crimes, but those are not the ones I am talking about. Those shootings involving gangs, drugs, and robberies are not the ones I meant to address. I meant to point out the shootings where unarmed innocents are harmed by crazed gunmen.

This is just my opinion, but I consider anyone a crazed gunman who uses a firearm to kill someone whether it be in the comission of another crime or from a mental breakdown or both. And I consider their victims to be unarmed innocents. With the exception of justifiable homicides which usually fall under law enforcement and/or self defense.

Anyway there are mixed statistics in the US in reference to concealed carry laws, and the District of Columbia handgun ban. But internationally the statistics skew us behind other countries with strong gun control laws. The US hovers around 30,000 gun deaths each year. If you combine the populations of Great Britain, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population about the same size of the US. Now those countries combine average around 500 gun deaths per year. Now is it because Americans are just more homicidal(and suicidal) by nature? Or could it be because those other countries have gun control laws?

[Larry]

It proves nothing other than that unless you live in a really bad neighborhood you may be a bit paranoid :whoknows:

Only if your personal definition of "paranoid" is "any person who believes that crimes happen".

I've never had to change a tire by the side of the road, either. But I carry a spare tire and a jack in my car. (Carry them concealed, too.)

I joined a volunteer rescue squad, and got my EMT certification, just because I wanted to have the ability, if the situation arose, to help somebody. Haven't used it yet.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Only if your personal definition of "paranoid" is "any person who believes that crimes happen".

I've never had to change a tire by the side of the road, either. But I carry a spare tire and a jack in my car. (Carry them concealed, too.)

I joined a volunteer rescue squad, and got my EMT certification, just because I wanted to have the ability, if the situation arose, to help somebody. Haven't used it yet.

That is that broad brush again. I read that you don't carry a hand gun so I guess we are just being hypothetical

[Destino]

I'm 100% in favor of concealed carry if the person subjects to a background check and keeps his permits up to date. I wonder if Obama would actually try to ban concealed carry at the state level because it's usually handled on the state level. I have no problem if this is his pesonal view - I'll take issue if he tries to ban it though.

[#98QBKiller]

Spin much?

He never says anywhere that he plans on doing anything about legally carrying a concealed handgun. He says he wants to take the illegal handguns off the street which is perfectly fine with me.

[#98QBKiller]

I'm 100% in favor of concealed carry if the person subjects to a background check and keeps his permits up to date. I wonder if Obama would actually try to ban concealed carry at the state level because it's usually handled on the state level. I have no problem if this is his pesonal view - I'll take issue if he tries to ban it though.

:applause: I agree 100 percent. This sounds like pure spin BS to me. They're taking his personal stance and making it sound like he's going to take a legislative stand against it.

[Baculus]

That's stupid. Has Obama even attempted to research statistics to reach his conclusion? I would guess "no," which would entail passion being involved in his position as oppose to logic.

There are very, very few crimes committed by legal holders of a CCW permit. A few bits of information I found; some of it is a bit dated, but still relevant none-the-less:

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)

* A Texas study found that CCW holders in that state were "5.7 times less likely to commit a violent crime, and 14 times less likely to commit a non-violent offense.

* North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.

* Georgia: "studies by numerous independent researchers and state agencies have found that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes.

* In 2004, the state of Utah had a permit revocation rate of about .4 percent. The rate for revocations due to firearm offenses was .02 percent.

* Between 1986 and 2003, only .8 percent of Kentucky's 71,770 licenses were revoked for any reason.

* In 2001, Indiana revoked about .2 percent of its outstanding concealed weapon permits.

* Since the inception of its concealed weapons program in 1995, Virginia has seen a revocation rate of just .2 percent.

* Between October of 1994 and February of 1996, the state of Wyoming issued 2,273 permits and revoked four, a revocation rate of just under .2 percent.

* Between 1996, when its shall-issue law passed, and September of 1999, the state of Oklahoma issued 30,406 permits and revoked only 62–a rate of .2 percent.

Furthermore:

* "Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense". (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992).

* The total Violent Crime Rate is 26% higher in the restrictive states (798.3 per 100,000 pop.) than in the less restrictive states (631.6 per 100,000)

* The Homicide Rate is 49% higher in the restrictive states 10.1 per 100,000) than in the states with less restrictive CCW laws (6.8 per 100,000).

* The Robbery Rate is 58% higher in the restrictive states (289.7 per 100,000) than in the less restrictive states (183.1 per 100,000).

* The Aggravated Assault Rate is 15% higher in the restrictive states (455.9 per 100,000) than in the less restrictive states (398.3 per 100,000).

* Using the most recent FBI data (1992), homicide trends in the 17 states with less restrictive CCW laws compare favorably against national trends, and almost all CCW permittees are law-abiding.

* Since adopting CCW (1987), Florida's homicide rate has fallen 21% while the U.S. rate has risen 12%. From start-up 10/1/87 - 2/28/94 (over six years) Florida issued 204,108 permits: only 17 (0.008%) were revoked because permittees later committed crimes (not necessarily violent) in which guns were present (not necessarily used).

* Of 14,000 CCW licensees in Oregon, only 4 (0.03%) were convicted of the criminal (not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

* Americans use firearms for self-defense more than 2.1 million time annually.

* By contrast, there are about 579,000 violent crimes committed annually with firearms of all types. Seventy percent of violent crimes are committed by 7% of criminals, including repeat offenders, many of whom the courts place on probation after conviction, and felons that are paroled before serving their full time behind bars.

* Two-thirds of self-protective firearms uses are with handguns.

* 99.9% of self-defense firearms uses do not result in fatal shootings of criminals, and important factor ignored in certain "studies" that are used to claim that guns are more often misused than used for self-protection.

* Of incarcerated felons surveyed by the Department of Justice, 34% have been driven away, wounded, or captured by armed citizens; 40% have decided against committing crimes for fear their would-be victims were armed.

Thus, it is demonstrable that CCW holders are not a public threat or nuisance, and in fact, such armed citizens help to reduce crime or the incident of violent assaults.

Some of the above data can be found at http://www.sacsconsulting.com/ccw_Statistics.htm

Then why it this an issue? Once again, due to emotional response. This is similar to the legal full-auto firearm, in which virtually zero crimes are committed by legal owners of automatic firearms, and yet, there are organizations hustling to make these firearms illegal, period.

It would be really, really remarkable if candidates actually based their positions on supportive data, as opposed to an emotional response.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

yeah, i think it would be much more badass if everyone who wanted to carry a gunb had to do so iwthout concealing it.

[THEArmchairQB]

Great stuff Baculus

[alexey]

Soooo.... did anybody actually go look up Obama's position and voting record on this?

[The 12th Commandment]

Soooo.... did anybody actually go look up Obama's position and voting record on this?

I think the OP was about his position but has he been around long enough to have voted for any of the legislation involving the right to bear arms? Perhaps in the Illinois legislature. I'd be interested in seeing that myself.

[drums and skins]