So you want an OL?

[fansince62]

The same WR corps that is scared going through the middle and most of their rec are outside of the hashes, individuals that limit our playcall. We cant do jumpballs or anything to take advantage. All they have is speed.

just to be clear here....you and others are asserting that Moss and ARE....2/3 rds of the receiving corps...are below average non-talents who have placed this team in a quandary...they are repsonsible for the poor passing game..this can only be fixed by drafting a WR at #21? and..that that should be the #1 strategic priority for this team?

[skinfan2k]

just to be clear here....you and others are asserting that Moss and ARE....2/3 rds of the receiving corps...are below average non-talents who have placed this team in a quandary...they are repsonsible for the poor passing game..this can only be fixed by drafting a WR at #21? and..that that should be the #1 strategic priority for this team?

well we sure need a Big WR. I like Mix, but there is a reason why he wasn't drafted and didn't get a chance with the giants. They drafted WRs while he was still there. They are not defintely not elite WRs. Moss is inconsistent and never fully healthy. ARE is a slot reciever and doesn't do great against press coverage

[Equinoox]

just to be clear here....you and others are asserting that Moss and ARE....2/3 rds of the receiving corps...are below average non-talents who have placed this team in a quandary...they are repsonsible for the poor passing game..this can only be fixed by drafting a WR at #21? and..that that should be the #1 strategic priority for this team?

I say that Moss and ARE need help, just like most say our OL needs help. I say we do need a big WR. Heck even Zorn said we need a big WR.

[Fieldy]

Our receivers did not get it done. In '07 (18 td), '06 (19 td), '05 (25 td) ...and you don't think we need help here? How many were by Clinton Portis receiving. Our OL ranked farily decent even with the injuries last year, and you know the other 2 seasons numbers. Keep an open mind.

With the 21st pick in the draft we are more likely looking for a player who come in and have a big impact right away. WRs typically take time to develop and catch up to NFL speed. Lack of a big receiver is not the only reason our passing game was so bad last year. It doesn't matter how many fast or tall receivers we have if JC is on his back or under pressure as much as he was last season. You also need the running game to open up the passing game, and last year Portis never REALLY got going as a result of the line being injured so much. The games that we had good OL protection we had a good running game and a good passing game.

Not saying we don't need help at WR, just that there is probably more value in taking someone like Jordy Nelson in the 3rd than Kelly or Sweed in the 1st.

[81tothehall]

Instead of researching the draft order I think it is smarter to look at the guys who rate as the best at their position and research where they were drafted. There are going to be busts in the 1st rd. and there will always be guys who are initially overlooked that will be considered steals in the draft. The best thing you can do from a front office standpoint is pick what you need unless there is an athlete that is just unbelievable at your spot that you can't pass on. Our o-line and our d-line are by far our biggest needs. I don't see an all-world wr like Calvin Johnson out there. Simple logic says that you pick the best lineman, offensive or defensive, that is available. I believe that the best value at our spot would be an o-lineman (most likely Albert). I also wouldn't pass on the safety from Miami, if available, b/c of his athletic ability.

[Peregrine]

I think all of these threads have proven that, no matter what position you pick in the 1st round, or any round for that matter, there is a good chance of drafting a bust. It doesnt matter so much what position you pick, but who you pick. Talent evaluation is key. You can find studs in the 1st round, you can find late rounds gems. You can also find busts in every round of the draft.

[Equinoox]

I think all of these threads have proven that, no matter what position you pick in the 1st round, or any round for that matter, there is a good chance of drafting a bust. It doesnt matter so much what position you pick, but who you pick. Talent evaluation is key. You can find studs in the 1st round, you can find late rounds gems. You can also find busts in every round of the draft.

:applause: Exactly, I justed posted this to be a devil's advocate. It makes me laugh how people think this kinda stuff is golden. And so many on here are expert NFL scouts to say they know this guy will bust and this guy will succed. I am surprised NFL Owners aren't on ES.com picking up their next scouting coach or GM here, we have so many experts. ROFL!!!

But, on the real: I have confidence in our FO and thier decisions. There is not one NFL team out there that doesn't have a bust on thier draft picks. I say we are in a good position at #21 with some potentially good players to chose from.

I have my favorites based on my opinion. We did go to the playoffs and I would like to see us go further. I am not happy that some say we aren't going to win the superbowl so lets just re-build. WE WENT TO THE PLAYOFFS PEOPLE!!!!!....usually to an orginization that means we are only a couple of players away. This is the only reason why I am real high on a WR. But, I would be happy with an OL, DL, or CB, because in the end that is a need.

[wildbill1952]

Methinks your method of determining a bust among OL is a little askew.

My definition of a first round bust is a guy who takes the first round money and three years later is out of football, has never played first string or is no longer playing first string. By that definition there are no busts among linemen drafted in the first round in the past 5 years. By that definition there are lots of QB's, RB's, WR's, LB, DE's, CB's, punters, kickers, safeties, etc. that are.

Running through the right or left "side" is a misnomer. I know of no blocking scheme that shows one lineman blocking two or more separate defensive players. So if stud right tackle lined up with bad right guard, a right "side" run would go nowhere, but by your definition, the stud right tackle is a bust, even if his man has been pancaked into the stadium turf and the guard's missed assignment made the tackle. Same with mixing and matching stud/good/bad guards and centers. Your analysis does not take into account this sort of chemistry so I find it..."inaccurate" is the word that most kindly describes it.

The O-Line coach grades each lineman after each game. If the O-lineman was in on 20 plays and was successful on 19, he would get a grade of 95%. The O-Lineman is unsuccessful if the defensive man got past him, hurried or pressured the QB, caused the RB to re-route, made the tackle or assisted on the tackle, forced a fumble, made an interception, made a sack or half-sack, blocked a pass, recovered a fumble or caused a fumble. Same bad result if the O-Lineman jumps offsides or incurs a penalty like holding. So a score of 100% is almost never achieved by a lineman. But other than the O-Line coach and the individual lineman who gets called on the carpet (and razzed during the film study), it's not a stat you can follow or find on NFL.com. Above 80% is very good, and above 90% the O-lineman is a pro-Bowler.

I'm interested in O-Line play, but even I don't follow that stat. You'd have to watch the game 5 times, once for each OL. But it's hard to follow individual stats on OL, because they're pretty much ignored by sportwriters and fans. And they're not involved in Fantasy football leagues, so they get 'very' ignored by many football "experts".

But as far as the way you measure busts among individual linemen, I think your stats might help you measure the effectiveness of an entire O-Line that way, but not individuals. The O-line is too dependent on each other to accurately measure one lineman by the group's results.

I think maybe you're just you're making a stretch here to support your argument. Not that it matters. Anything to kill the offseason.

JMHO.

[BMahoney]

The post that you are arguing against who says he will be there at 21 is BACKED by every NFL site, magazine, even fan mock draft. Yeah anything is possible, there is no way to know anything for sure, but at the moment all indications are he will be there at 21.

-Appears NFL.com has updated one of their mock drafts, and guess what? Brandon Albert listed at going 15 to the Lions. As I stated in my post I don't believe he will be there at the 21st pick, unlike dirtymontana, who said "he will be there at 21..."

Here's a link though:http://www.nfl.com/draft/story;jsessionid=428447436759A6254B6600EFED428017?id=09000d5d807619d5&template=with-video&confirm=true

[Wyvern]

I

03

#8 Jordan Gross OT (CAR RT)- 45/241 5.4yd avg. Stud

#20 George Foster OT (DET RT)- 66/435 6.6yd avg. Stud org. pk by DEN

#21 Jeff Faine OC (NO C)- 96/357 3.7yd avg. Bad

#26 Kwame Harris OT (SF RT)- backup to Joe Staley

I disagree on Faine. I had been hoping the Skins might go after him in Free Agency. This guy is a lot better than your reseach analysis showed. If you are judging him on 2007, I'd say the Saints had more influential issues, than Faine's capabilities. Tampa signed him away from New Orleans for a really big contract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Faine

Probably some of this is Tampa hype -- but since he recovered from an injury a few years ago -- Faine is a solid center. Not a bad one.

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/29/Bucs/Jeff_Faine_bound_for_.shtml

[dfbovey]

O-linemen can be found later in the draft as can WR, and there is no real 1st round receiver talent so I pray we don't go for Sweed. I hope we get BPA, maybe it is Brandon Alberts but he'll probably be off the board, I am thinking well go either DT/CB in the first.

There are players at every position late in the draft just as there are busts at every position in the first round.

As long as they take the best player available in rounds 1 and 2 that fit within our needs at OG, DL, WR or CB I'll be happy. The only thing I'm not happy about is that they didn't address any of those needs prior to the draft.

[fansince62]

There are players at every position late in the draft just as there are busts at every position in the first round.

As long as they take the best player available in rounds 1 and 2 that fit within our needs at OG, DL, WR or CB I'll be happy. The only thing I'm not happy about is that they didn't address any of those needs prior to the draft.

man...that was quick...to the point...and pretty spot on!

[skinsince72]

I am feeling more and more that it will definitely be the BPA, whether it be Albert or Cromartie. Of course, watch us get all wound up for the 21st pick and with 1 minute left, they announce that we traded down.

[wildbill1952]

Those stats are about the whole line. Show me on that site you are using where it tells me about the middle. I have used that site as well, but it is about the WHOLE LINES SUCCESS. Power running means runs on third and fourth. Click on this site, it breaks it down to the right, left, and middle.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fo...SER_SACKED.html

Also, Centers very rarely have to block by themselves. That is why OL have 5 players. Where most defenses have 4 lined up.

Just to validate my misgivings about the stats you are basing your entire argument on: I find it extremely interesting that the runs to the left side (using the link you posted) shows the left side of the Washington Redskins at a 4.0, the right side at a 4.1 and the center of the line at 3.2.

Therefore, based on your own stats that you use to prove how bad the first round OL picks are, this is how you rate the Redskin linemen at the end of the year:

Running Left

Chris Samuels OT (WSH LT)- 97/386 4.0 yd avg. Bad

Pete Kendall OG (WSH LG)- 97/386 4.0 yd avg. Bad

Running Middle

Pete Kendall OG (WSH LG)- 125/402 3.2 yd avg. Really Bad

Casey Rabach C (WSH C)- 125/402 3.2 yd avg. Really Bad

Jason Fabini OG (WSH RG)- 125/402 3.2 yd avg. Really Bad*

Running Right

Jason Fabini OG (WSH RG)- 111/457 4.1 yd avg. Bad*

Stephon Heyer OT (WSH RT)- 111/457 4.1 yd avg. Bad

So, based on your statistics, the entire line is bad. But Samuels is worse than Heyer and/or Fabini? Heyer, the revolving door from the Seattle game, is bad, but not AS bad as our All-Pro left tackle, Chris Samuels? You know, the Chris Samuels that has gone to 4 Pro Bowls (and was also a first round pick), that Chris Samuels, is bad???? If you believe your statistics he is.

Do you see how that might make one believe the stats you use to state your case "that 1st round OL have a high number of busts" might be considered, (I'm searching for a word, choose one:) all wet, bogus, careless, counterfactual, defective, discrepant, doesn't wash, fallacious, false, faulty, imprecise, inaccurate, in error, incorrect, inexact, mistaken, off, off base, out, specious, unfaithful, unreliable, unsound, untrue, way off, wide, wild, wrong?

Just curious. Do you really think the run left, run right stats you use do anything but show you how bad overall the Washington Redskin OL is, dictating that the biggest need in the upcoming draft is OL and not WR?

I liked my statistics courses in my college days. Unfortunately, the statistics you cite do not support your argument.

*I promised I wouldn't pick on Fabini any more. Just a misleading stat. No dis on Fabini.