So you want an OL?

[Equinoox]

I posted this in other threads, but 1 person responded. And with so many saying OL is the safest. I went on a 5 hour hunt to see if they were right.

I tried to research offnesive lineman and thier stats and couldnt find anywhere that has stats that shows sacks given up, penelties, etc. So to make an argument against OL in the first round is very hard. But I will try with what I have.

This shows the attempts/yards gained on their side of the line, Right, Middle, & Left. The average yds gained and my opinion.

4.17 is the average rushing for the NFL.

07

#3 Joe Thomas OT (CLE LT)- 165/843 5.1yd avg. Stud

#5 Levi Brown OT (ARI RT)- 32/125 3.9yd avg. Bad

#28 Joe Staley OT (SF RT)- 24/87 3.6yd avg. Bad

#29 Ben Grubbs OG (BAL RG)- 40/196 4.9yd avg. Good

06

#4 D'Brickashaw Fergeson OT (NYJ LT)- 76/341 4.5yd avg. Good

#23 Davin Joseph OG (TB RG)- 85/275 3.3yd avg. Bad

#29 Nick Mangold OC (NYJ C)- 119/340 2.9yd avg. Terrible

05

#13 Jammal Brown OT (NO LT)- 116/400 3.4yd avg. Bad

#19 Alex Barron OT (STL LT)- 98/299 3.1yd avg. Bad

#26 Chris Spencer OC (SEA C)- 132/410 3.1yd avg. Bad

#32 Logan Mankins OG (NE LG)- 127/635 5.0yd avg. Stud

04

#2 Robert Gallery OT (OAK LG)- 116/558 4.8yd avg. Good

#16 Shawn Andrews OT (PHI RT)- 67/469 7.0yd avg. Stud

#19 Vernon Larcy OG (MIN LT)- 121/585 4.8yd avg. Good

03

#8 Jordan Gross OT (CAR RT)- 45/241 5.4yd avg. Stud

#20 George Foster OT (DET RT)- 66/435 6.6yd avg. Stud org. pk by DEN

#21 Jeff Faine OC (NO C)- 96/357 3.7yd avg. Bad

#26 Kwame Harris OT (SF RT)- backup to Joe Staley

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fo...SER_SACKED.html

From what I see in 5 years only 4 guards were taken in the first. Only 1 was before #23 and he was a hybrid that is now playing a Tackle. One can make a case that an OG is a safe pick in the first. But, OT is a almost as much of a bust as a WR. I know it takes 2 lineman to block a side of the line. But you can make the same argument for a WR it takes the line to block and QB as well to get a WR the ball.

[BMahoney]

O-linemen can be found later in the draft as can WR, and there is no real 1st round receiver talent so I pray we don't go for Sweed. I hope we get BPA, maybe it is Brandon Alberts but he'll probably be off the board, I am thinking well go either DT/CB in the first.

[Equinoox]

I really don't like the DT that will be there. This is just based off what I read on here and supposed expert anayst from NFL, ESPN, etc. I do think there will be some CB. I think that BPA will be WR, CB, and Branden Albert.

[Hung Like A Norse]

O-linemen can be found later in the draft as can WR, and there is no real 1st round receiver talent so I pray we don't go for Sweed. I hope we get BPA, maybe it is Brandon Alberts but he'll probably be off the board, I am thinking well go either DT/CB in the first.

Brendan Albert will be there at #21..

[BMahoney]

Brendan Albert will be there at #21..

-I was unaware you knew the future, also if you note I said he probably wont be there. His draft stock is only going up as he continues to get more and more media attention, it is quite possible that he ends up going before Otah or Williams, which will most likely mean that he isn't that at 21. Thanks for your informative post, but next time I need to know the future I'll just call Miss Cleo.

[Hung Like A Norse]

-I was unaware you knew the future, also if you note I said he probably wont be there. His draft stock is only going up as he continues to get more and more media attention, it is quite possible that he ends up going before Otah or Williams, which will most likely mean that he isn't that at 21. Thanks for your informative post, but next time I need to know the future I'll just call Miss Cleo.

WOW..I was simply stating that he is currently not rated any higher then #23 on any mock draft report or analysis.. so IMO, and hopefully he will be there..and if he ends up going before Otah or Williams he will most certainly go before #21

are you a closet Cowboys fan?

[Skinsinparadise]

-I was unaware you knew the future, also if you note I said he probably wont be there. His draft stock is only going up as he continues to get more and more media attention, it is quite possible that he ends up going before Otah or Williams, which will most likely mean that he isn't that at 21. Thanks for your informative post, but next time I need to know the future I'll just call Miss Cleo.

EVERY mock draft, every one of them, some which were updated this week has Albert going #23 at the earliest, otherwise he's later in the first round, early 2nd in the mocks. Yeah it could be a surprise and he's picked earlier but right now its not trending that way.

Be one thing if Albert was all over the map in mocks, but he isn't. It's rare for EVERY Mock board to agree and for them ALL to be wrong, because that's what you are assuming right now.

You can use your same argument to knock all these predictions, who's to say that that Long is going to be a top 10 pick, for all we know he can land in the third round, right? Well, maybe, but the media guys are talking to scouts and make judgments based on information.

They can be wrong but not everybody is pulling this stuff out of their buts. If Kiper and McShay for example have Albert going after #21 and Williams and Otah for the most part top 15, and the opposite occurs, they don't look very smart.

I have yet to see him being mentioned in the same breath as Otah or Williams never mind being drafted ahead of him. If you see the post from a memeber who researched this, only one guard was drafted higher than 21 in the last 5 years.

Now Albert is an exciting prospect, but to predict he's gone before 21, or now might go ahead of Otah and Williams is not backed up from what I've seen ANYWHERE.

The post that you are arguing against who says he will be there at 21 is BACKED by every NFL site, magazine, even fan mock draft. Yeah anything is possible, there is no way to know anything for sure, but at the moment all indications are he will be there at 21.

Edit:

Sorry for being long winded here. To make my point simply. Every draft geek would have egg on their face because they all would be WAY wrong here. Albert going in the top 20 would be a departure from what people are thinking and him going before Williams and Otah would be a HUGE departure of what the draft geeks are thinking.

But no offense implied to your liking of Albert or thinking he's such a great player that there is some huge media buzz that will turn him into the third highest rated o lineman in the draft. I don't see it dude. But we will see.

[Skins4ever1]

WOW..I was simply stating that he is currently not rated any higher then #23 on any mock draft report or analysis.. so IMO, and hopefully he will be there..and if he ends up going before Otah or Williams he will most certainly go before #21

are you a closet Cowboys fan?

OUCH!!! Nice...

[33]

The problem is a few of the people you mark as bad (Levi Brown, Logan Mankins) are regarded as good football players, and someone you listed as good (Robert Gallery) has generally been considered to be a huge bust.

It's hard to make statistical analysis of O-Linemen. I respect the research though and it was good to see the 1st rounders all listed in one place.

[Equinoox]

The problem is a few of the people you mark as bad (Levi Brown, Logan Mankins) are regarded as good football players, and someone you listed as good (Robert Gallery) has generally been considered to be a huge bust.

It's hard to make statistical analysis of O-Linemen. I respect the research though and it was good to see the 1st rounders all listed in one place.

Robert Gallery was considered a bust because he was drafted as a LT #2 and had to be moved to a Guard (non-skill position). Logan Mankin is a stud and I listed that. Levi Brown actually did do a decent job, but considering he was a high round pick in the first. Like most people want a WR to start thier first year with monster numbers. I think the same should apply for OL. Take a look at Joe Thomas. Or is it just people hateing on WR based on their personal choice for thier first round pick?

[PennState11]

Thats not a good way to look at how good an o-lineman is. So many factors go into yards per rush. Someone who is considered "bad" could just play with other lineman that arent good. Or they could have lackluster running backs. Or they could have no passing game to open up running lanes. Etc.

I think generally Offensive Lineman are easier to evaluate than other positions. With a few exceptions such as Robert Gallery. If you look at it most elite left tackles are first round picks, you never find them in later rounds.

[Equinoox]

Thats not a good way to look at how good an o-lineman is. So many factors go into yards per rush. Someone who is considered "bad" could just play with other lineman that arent good. Or they could have lackluster running backs. Or they could have no passing game to open up running lanes. Etc.

I think generally Offensive Lineman are easier to evaluate than other positions. With a few exceptions such as Robert Gallery. If you look at it most elite left tackles are first round picks, you never find them in later rounds.

I kinda agree with you. You are talking about tangibles for an OL. You don't think WR have tangibles either? There is more tangibles to WR, systems, QB play, and OL play. I think this is a weak argument to back up OL are better to pick in the first round. Here is an example: Reggie Wayne didn't do that well in NO. He goes to IND and now he is a star. Lets look at Javon Walker..in GB he flourished but now is not considerd much.

Edit: Alot have made that argument also that most elite WR come from the first round.

[[[ghost]]]

O-linemen can be found later in the draft as can WR, and there is no real 1st round receiver talent so I pray we don't go for Sweed. I hope we get BPA, maybe it is Brandon Alberts but he'll probably be off the board, I am thinking well go either DT/CB in the first.

How is Limas Sweed not 1st Round Talent? How are Malcolm Kelly and maybe even DeSean Jackson (though we don't need him) not 1st round talent? All of them are very talented, and Jackson is a speed demon, though he has size issues.

You can say they're not Top 10 Talent, because they're not. They are however, very good #17-32 talent.

[Aireskoi]

The measurement for success at the O line position is usually games started. They usually don't stay on the field if they are a bust. Beyond that, your research is another tool to use, nice job.

The eyeball test is still probably the best test for O Linemen, you can see if he is moving guys off the LOS, or getting pushed back on a regular basis. Holding and false start penalties factor in also.

[[[ghost]]]

Thats some damn good research.

Guards do seem like a safe pick. Tackles, not so much. Fortunetely, I think the interior of our line needs a fix, not our edge, so we're lucky that Branden Albert is (primarily) a guard.

[Equinoox]

The measurement for success at the O line position is usually games started. They usually don't stay on the field if they are a bust. Beyond that, your research is another tool to use, nice job.

The eyeball test is still probably the best test for O Linemen, you can see if he is moving guys off the LOS, or getting pushed back on a regular basis. Holding and false start penalties factor in also.

Thanks, Aireskoi i searched the internet for anything I could use. I came across this site http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7122&team=2 I need a tool like this. I wish I could navigate this site to see more players, so I could answer those questions, sacks given up, penelties. Those are stats that are really valuable when grading OL. But on a side note most sites, ESPN,NFL, and other internet sites grade offensive lines by yards rushed and use the sacks.

[Aireskoi]

]']Thats some damn good research.

Guards do seem like a safe pick. Tackles' date=' not so much. Fortunetely, I think the interior of our line needs a fix, not our edge, so we're lucky that Branden Albert is (primarily) a guard.[/quote']

If we go with Albert, I could see him competing with Kendall for the guard spot, and possibly moving outside in the future. We will have to see how everyone is health wise, and see how Jansen and Thomas recover and perform. We still have Heyer, who may just beat Jansen for the right side for all we know.

I think there are enough questions on the O Line to warrant taking Albert with the 21 pick, if he's there.

[tex]

there are so many ways the skins could go with their first round pick my head is spinning. i just don't see them taking a guard/tackle with the 21st pick. which probably means that's what they do.

[36HAMMER]

putting all that aside, buges seemed to really like mr albert. thats good enough for me. also mr long de from uva also said he's the best guard he's every seen blocking in space.and i believe he's seen a few in he's young life through his dad.

[Laron Burgundy]

I tried to research offnesive lineman and thier stats and couldnt find anywhere that has stats that shows sacks given up, penelties, etc. So to make an argument against OL in the first round is very hard. But I will try with what I have.

This shows the attempts/yards gained on their side of the line, Right, Middle, & Left. The average yds gained and my opinion.

4.17 is the average rushing for the NFL.

07

#3 Joe Thomas OT (CLE LT)- 165/843 5.1yd avg. Stud

#5 Levi Brown OT (ARI RT)- 32/125 3.9yd avg. Bad

#28 Joe Staley OT (SF RT)- 24/87 3.6yd avg. Bad

#29 Ben Grubbs OG (BAL RG)- 40/196 4.9yd avg. Good

06

#4 D'Brickashaw Fergeson OT (NYJ LT)- 76/341 4.5yd avg. Good

#23 Davin Joseph OG (TB RG)- 85/275 3.3yd avg. Bad

#29 Nick Mangold OC (NYJ C)- 119/340 2.9yd avg. Terrible

05

#13 Jammal Brown OT (NO LT)- 116/400 3.4yd avg. Bad

#19 Alex Barron OT (STL LT)- 98/299 3.1yd avg. Bad

#26 Chris Spencer OC (SEA C)- 132/410 3.1yd avg. Bad

#32 Logan Mankins OG (NE LG)- 127/635 5.0yd avg. Stud

04

#2 Robert Gallery OT (OAK LG)- 116/558 4.8yd avg. Good

#16 Shawn Andrews OT (PHI RT)- 67/469 7.0yd avg. Stud

#19 Vernon Larcy OG (MIN LT)- 121/585 4.8yd avg. Good

03

#8 Jordan Gross OT (CAR RT)- 45/241 5.4yd avg. Stud

#20 George Foster OT (DET RT)- 66/435 6.6yd avg. Stud org. pk by DEN

#21 Jeff Faine OC (NO C)- 96/357 3.7yd avg. Bad

#26 Kwame Harris OT (SF RT)- backup to Joe Staley

To call Nick Mangold "terrible" shows how limited your research is. He has 1 penalty last year and only 1.5 sacks given up (and fyi the jets ranked 12th in the league in runs up the middle while having a terrible left guard). And to call Robert Gallery "good" is really funny too. He had 14 penalties against him last year alone. He was playing guard and did a better job of not allowing sacks but the previous year when he played tackle he gave up 10.5 sacks. Just to spell it out, this research is flawed.

Firstly, don't look at linemen in the past 3 years. They are still developing, nobody expects a first or even second year wide receiver to put up probowl numbers; linemen have an adjustment period also. The reason people argue wr busts isn't because some 1st round wide receivers never put out 1500 yard seasons, or that rookies don't put out big numbers immediately, it is because half of the first round wide receivers are out of the league in 4 years. Completely. Not just on the bench, not just 3rd stringers. Not on a roster at all. As someone else said, if you want a better representation of offensive line success in the first round look at the number of O-linemen from 8-3 years ago who are still in the league.

[DCdangerous]

The closer we get to Draft Day, the more picking Branden Albert makes sense. But many mock drafts have Pittsburgh selecting Albert because he would fill the void left by Alan Faneca.

Pittsburgh is at #23, Washington is at #21. If we trade down past #23 for more picks, Pittsburgh will pick him up. The only way we can trade down is if we switch with Dallas at #22.

[Laron Burgundy]

]']How is Limas Sweed not 1st Round Talent? How are Malcolm Kelly and maybe even DeSean Jackson (though we don't need him) not 1st round talent? All of them are very talented' date=' and Jackson is a speed demon, though he has size issues.

You can say they're not Top 10 Talent, because they're not. They are however, very good #17-32 talent.[/quote']

All the wide receivers picked in the first last year were either first on their team in receiving or they were 2nd behind another wide receiver drafted ahead of them. All the wr you listed didn't even lead their own team in receiving (and no, Sweed wasn't leading his team at the time of his injury). All I'm saying is if they can't even lead their college team how do we expect them to be studs in the nfl? All of them had good years the year before but this year they underperformed.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Aren't Tackles meant to protect the qb primarily? How much impact do Tackles have on the running game? Wouldn't that be weighted more heavily based on the Guard that plays on said Tackle's side of the line? Wasn't that more evident than ever with our situation last year? These stats really don't tell the entire story b/c there are too many factors involved not just the stats of one individual or plays run to their side.

Anyway, we should draft the best player available at the 21st pick or trade down if we feel like we can get our man early in the second b/c it seems there's either a lot of talent in this draft or it's weak as hell. No one really knows, but I guess we'll find out. To me, there seems to be a lot of parity in this draft :whoknows:. :2cents:

[Fieldy]

There are busts at every position in every round every draft. There are also studs at every position in every round every draft. You could go any position and the chances of a bust are pretty high.

As I'm sure the esteemed Mr. Bugel knows games are won and lost in the trenches. Mr Bugel also knows good OL when he sees them and the Hogsmeister has been heaping praize upon Branden Albert. Whether we take him or not remains to be seen, but OL/DL are the most important positions in the game and should (IMO will) be addressed first.

[BMahoney]

WOW..I was simply stating that he is currently not rated any higher then #23 on any mock draft report or analysis.. so IMO, and hopefully he will be there..and if he ends up going before Otah or Williams he will most certainly go before #21

are you a closet Cowboys fan?

-Saying "he will be there at #21" is not simply stating that he currently is not ranked higher than #23 on any mock draft. It is making a statement that something will occur, when it very feasibly couldn't. I have said I would be fine taking him at 21 if he is there, don't know how you relate that to me being a closet cowboy fan...