So you want an OL?

[Equinoox]

To call Nick Mangold "terrible" shows how limited your research is. He has 1 penalty last year and only 1.5 sacks given up (and fyi the jets ranked 12th in the league in runs up the middle while having a terrible left guard). And to call Robert Gallery "good" is really funny too. He had 14 penalties against him last year alone. He was playing guard and did a better job of not allowing sacks but the previous year when he played tackle he gave up 10.5 sacks. Just to spell it out, this research is flawed.

Yes I would say Nick Mangold was not good. I would like to see where you got those numbers on Mangold. Penalties, sacks given up, are only part of the rankings(I couldn't find a site to show these numbers). Every site that I seen, ranked offensive lines by the yards they gained for thier RB. The NYJ had 2.9 yards per carry up the middle click on my link for your proof. Where are you getting your number? Yes Robert Gallery did good in the yards gained. Do you know how many sacks he gave up? Show me where your getting your numbers, before I can belive your statements.

And your statement about OG developing. Is nothing that WR have to go threw too. The only thing it is easier to say this WR sucks because he doesn't put up numbers like R.Moss. And it is harder to gage OL and make that determination.

[Whiskeypeet]

there are so many ways the skins could go with their first round pick my head is spinning. i just don't see them taking a guard/tackle with the 21st pick. which probably means that's what they do.

I actually don't see them going OL in the first. It just not how this team has operated since Dan/Vinny took over. They like to build from the outside in and stock up on the skill positions.

At the end of the day it doesnt it matter that much. If the team drafts good players I'll be happy regardless of position.

Think of last year when the team drafted Landry. He wasn't a need pick.....or a player at a position in which we had a gaping hole.......but it has worked out well so far.

[Equinoox]

Aren't Tackles meant to protect the qb primarily? How much impact do Tackles have on the running game? Wouldn't that be weighted more heavily based on the Guard that plays on said Tackle's side of the line? Wasn't that more evident than ever with our situation last year? These stats really don't tell the entire story b/c there are too many factors involved not just the stats of one individual or plays run to their side.

Anyway, we should draft the best player available at the 21st pick or trade down if we feel like we can get our man early in the second b/c it seems there's either a lot of talent in this draft or it's weak as hell. No one really knows, but I guess we'll find out. To me, there seems to be a lot of parity in this draft :whoknows:. :2cents:

If you think Tackles are mainly to protect the QB, then you better ask somebody. That is just part of thier job, they have to yes protect the blind back side of a QB, but also pin the DE inside when doing a sweep, and block a DE out for a dive. This is why they are considered the skill position. I agree with you about about drafts not telling the whole story. It is all about tangibles. WR have just as much tangibles, probably more. I am just going off these people that post, "Why we shouldn't choose a WR in the first"

I agree we should draft the BPA even if it is a WR.

[Laron Burgundy]

Yes I would say Nick Mangold was not good. I would like to see where you got those numbers on Mangold. Penalties, sacks given up, are only part of the rankings(I couldn't find a site to show these numbers). Every site that I seen, ranked offensive lines by the yards they gained for thier RB. The NYJ had 2.9 yards per carry up the middle click on my link for your proof. Where are you getting your number? Yes Robert Gallery did good in the yards gained. Do you know how many sacks he gave up? Show me where your getting your numbers, before I can belive your statements.

And your statement about OG developing. Is nothing that WR have to go threw too. The only thing it is easier to say this WR sucks because he doesn't put up numbers like R.Moss. And it is harder to gage OL and make that determination.

http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7778&team=20

That is Mangold's penalties and sacks given up.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

This is the amount of yards gained adjusted by football outsiders. Also note how NYJ runs 60% of their runs to the inside, only 4 teams have a higher percent to the inside. Mangold is definitely not a bad player. He'll be around for a decade.

[Equinoox]

All the wide receivers picked in the first last year were either first on their team in receiving or they were 2nd behind another wide receiver drafted ahead of them. All the wr you listed didn't even lead their own team in receiving (and no, Sweed wasn't leading his team at the time of his injury). All I'm saying is if they can't even lead their college team how do we expect them to be studs in the nfl? All of them had good years the year before but this year they underperformed.

Sweed went into the season with a his wrist injured and only played 6 games. He was projected as a the top WR going into 2007. He would have been top 10 receiver in the 2007 draft. He did lead recieving his junior year. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teams/stats?teamId=251&year=2007 Where are you getting your stats from? I think you should research before you make post. You make yourself look like an unreliable source.

[Equinoox]

http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7778&team=20

That is Mangold's penalties and sacks given up.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

This is the amount of yards gained adjusted by football outsiders. Also note how NYJ runs 60% of their runs to the inside, only 4 teams have a higher percent to the inside. Mangold is definitely not a bad player. He'll be around for a decade.

Those stats are about the whole line. Show me on that site you are using where it tells me about the middle. I have used that site as well, but it is about the WHOLE LINES SUCCESS. Power running means runs on third and fourth. Click on this site, it breaks it down to the right, left, and middle.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fo...SER_SACKED.html

Edit: Do you know how to navigate the realfootball site. I have been trying to learn how to navigate it.

Also, Centers very rarely have to block by themselves. That is why OL have 5 players. Where most defenses have 4 lined up.

[Laron Burgundy]

Scroll down on that page. One second while I get Sweed's numbers from this year.

[Equinoox]

Scroll down on that page. One second while I get Sweed's numbers from this year.

I have sweeds numbers posted. click on my link above.

from your site http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

Only five directions are listed because research so far shows no statistically significant difference between how well a team performs on runs listed middle, left guard, and right guard. It's early in the season, so take these numbers with a grain of salt.

This site is trying to base a WHOLE LINE'S SUCCESS. They use an adjusted formula. Main reason I didn't use this site.

Again use my site from SI to get the true numbers not adjusted.

[Laron Burgundy]

Sweed went into the season with a his wrist injured and only played 6 games. He was projected as a the top WR going into 2007. He would have been top 10 receiver in the 2007 draft. He did lead recieving his junior year. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teams/stats?teamId=251&year=2007 Where are you getting your stats from? I think you should research before you make post. You make yourself look like an unreliable source.

I never said he didn't lead his junior year. I said he didn't lead this year at the time he stopped playing (check the game logs). Believe me, I've done the research, you might as well trust me cause I haven't led your wrong yet. If a WR is good enough to be in the first round they better not get beaten out in receiving by players who are predicted to be future 4th-6th rounders.

The reason Sweed was the top wr going into this year is because he had a good junior year, however, even at the time of his injury his senior year he wasn't outperforming two other receivers on his team (previous year he had about 300 yards receiving more than any other receiver, by the time he stopped playing this year he had about 20 less than Nate Jones and 20 more than Quan Cosby; those are not spectacular numbers for the best receiver in the nation). And point being made, I'm not arguing that he isn't the best receiver in the country, but all of these receivers have so many question marks that it will be, without a doubt, a reach to pick one at the 21st spot. You say pick the BPA at the 21st spot, and I agree, but there will be no wr who is a value pick at that spot.

[Equinoox]

I never said he didn't lead his junior year. I said he didn't lead this year at the time he stopped playing (check the game logs). Believe me, I've done the research, you might as well trust me cause I haven't led your wrong yet. If a WR is good enough to be in the first round they better not get beaten out in receiving by players who are predicted to be future 4th-6th rounders.

The reason Sweed was the top wr going into this year is because he had a good junior year, however, even at the time of his injury his senior year he wasn't outperforming two other receivers on his team (previous year he had about 300 yards receiving more than any other receiver, by the time he stopped playing this year he had about 20 less than Nate Jones and 20 more than Quan Cosby; those are not spectacular numbers for the best receiver in the nation). And point being made, I'm not arguing that he isn't the best receiver in the country, but all of these receivers have so many question marks that it will be, without a doubt, a reach to pick one at the 21st spot. You say pick the BPA at the 21st spot, and I agree, but there will be no wr who is a value pick at that spot.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/100907dnspoutlede.14fb5aa41.html

After six games, the senior receiver decided he couldn't continue any longer with the injury he suffered during preseason drills.

Texas, which has started 0-2 in the Big 12 South, loses a player who commanded double coverage despite the injury. Sweed averaged 33.3 yards on his 20 career touchdowns. Last season, he tied Roy Williams' school record with touchdown catches in seven consecutive games.

Sweed was considered a possible first-day draft pick before deciding to return to Texas for his senior year.

I won't trust you as others shouldn't either. Yes, you are giving out some wrong info. Well, you are not giving the whole story. Just your version, to base judgements to seem real. Smoke and scree tactic. How do you really expect him to be the #1 when he hurt his hand in preseason. Trust me this guy is worthy. But, to be honest he is probably going to go higher because of his proday and Malcom Kelly's injury.

[Laron Burgundy]

from your site http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php This site is trying to base a WHOLE LINE'S SUCCESS. They use an adjusted formula. Main reason I didn't use this site.

Again use my site from SI to get the true numbers not adjusted.

No, the site isn't trying to detail the whole line's success from the second table's numbers. Let me break down that quote for you.

The second table lists each team's Adjusted Line Yards in each direction listed in official NFL play-by-play, along with rank among the 32 teams. Only five directions are listed because research so far shows no statistically significant difference between how well a team performs on runs listed middle, left guard, and right guard.

They list 5 directions: left end, left tackle, mid/guard, right tackle, right end. They COULD list 7 directions, but they lump left guard, middle, and right guard all together because those numbers end up being fairly similar in their experience. If they were to describe the whole line's success they WOULD NOT break it down into directions. Basically it is a breakdown similar to SI's EXCEPT it tries to take into account the ability of the rb along with the opponents you face and remove those factors from the offensive line's statistics. Check out the Jet's schedule, they had a fairly brutal schedule as far as run defenses go. They faced 8 of the top 10 run defenses.

It's early in the season, so take these numbers with a grain of salt.

This is clearly a sentance left on the webpage long after it should be deleted. In fact, it is kind of embarassing you highlighted it. The first statement itself, along with the current time, should have told you to negate the second statement. Is it early in the season? No, it is after the season. Therefor don't take those numbers with a grain of salt; they are completely serious. That statement is on every year's page all the way back to 2004 and that should have hinted that it was a mistake by whoever updates the webpage.

[TheItalianStallion]

A bit off-topic: Is switching from LG to RG typically an easy adjustment for players to make? And RT to LT?

[Laron Burgundy]

I won't trust you as others shouldn't either. Yes, you are giving out some wrong info. Well, you are not giving the whole story. Just your version, to base judgements to seem real. Smoke and scree tactic. How do you really expect him to be the #1 when he hurt his hand in preseason. Trust me this guy is worthy. But, to be honest he is probably going to go higher because of his proday and Malcom Kelly's injury.

And now we are back to why I started. Your first post had statistics but they were deceiving. You caught me, but I WAS using statistics to back up my evidence on why Sweed underperformed just as you used statistics to claim offensive linemen aren't safer than wide receivers in the first round. Still doesn't explain Desean Jackson and Malcolm Kelly, but I'll give Sweed a pass for now. He showed toughness playing on an injury but most players get hurt during the course of a season. I wonder how severe this injury really was.

Nonetheless a wr with a gimpy wrist is almost as bad as a runningback with gimpy knees. Brandon Albert is who I hope the skins go for, he is a far safer pick.

[Equinoox]

Basically it is a breakdown similar to SI's EXCEPT it tries to take into account the ability of the rb along with the opponents you face and remove those factors from the offensive line's statistics. Check out the Jet's schedule, they had a fairly brutal schedule as far as run defenses go. They faced 8 of the top 10 run defenses.

It is not the same. SI gives true #. Football Outsider's have their opinions involved to make the best judgment.

Taken from Football Outsiders:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/methods.php#lineyards

Adjusted Yards Explained

We have enough data amassed that we can try to separate the effect that the running back has on a particular play from the effect of the offensive line (and other offensive blockers) and the effect of the defense.

Issues With DVOA/DPAR

DVOA is still far away from the point where we can use it to represent the value of a player separate from the performance of his ten teammates that are also involved in each play.

It is them making thier best judgement. By taking numbers and trying to crunch them. It is a good tool to use. But not acctual it has opinions.

[Laron Burgundy]

No, they aren't actual numbers. However to say 2.9 ypc is terrible without factoring the Jets schedule and their bad runningbacks would be skewing the info also. Even actual stats are misleading.

[Equinoox]

A bit off-topic: Is switching from LG to RG typically an easy adjustment for players to make? And RT to LT?

I would say yes. Just based off the fact that it is easier to go from LT to LG. Guys that can't cut at the Tackle they can easily be move to Guard. Guard is like the retirement position for Tackles. Flozell adams was a great Tackle moved to Guard and is a pro-bowler. But this is just my guess.

[Equinoox]

No, they aren't actual numbers. However to say 2.9 ypc is terrible without factoring the Jets schedule and their bad runningbacks would be skewing the info also. Even actual stats are misleading.

I can agree with you a little bit. But opinions always vary, as you can see with who ES.com thinks the BPA is. Stats don't always tell the whole story. It does tell you for sure where you need to improve. The Jets line in that division does need to improve. Because, Thomas Jones did very well in Chicago. On a side note: our stats for receving TD we need to improve here. Where our stats on the OL are decent. Stats never lie or have opinions they are fact.

[jweisk1]

I like the effort in your research but there are some loopholes I think you can't ignore...

1st-running back-you cant tell me that the talent level of the RB wouldn't play a significant role in YPC.

2nd-Passing Attack-some teams rely on the PA to set up huge gains in the running attack...see Edgeran James number in Indy vs AZ.

3rd-System backs-Betts vs Portis 2006...Do you really thing Betts is better than Portis, of course not but he played in a system that suited him better.

4th-the other 4 lineman...each player only plays one position...look at the numbers from the skins last year after 2 starters went down. Is it really fair to compare running numbers when half your line is average at best...of course not

Overall I like the effort but I think there are many other tangibles you must consider....

[Equinoox]

I like the effort in your research but there are some loopholes I think you can't ignore...

1st-running back-you cant tell me that the talent level of the RB wouldn't play a significant role in YPC.

2nd-Passing Attack-some teams rely on the PA to set up huge gains in the running attack...see Edgeran James number in Indy vs AZ.

3rd-System backs-Betts vs Portis 2006...Do you really thing Betts is better than Portis, of course not but he played in a system that suited him better.

4th-the other 4 lineman...each player only plays one position...look at the numbers from the skins last year after 2 starters went down. Is it really fair to compare running numbers when half your line is average at best...of course not

Overall I like the effort but I think there are many other tangibles you must consider....

I totally agree with you there are tangibles. Do you think there are no tangibles for any other position? This is a team sport, hell the ball boy has a role. WR has alot of tangibles as well, I would say more than any other postions except QB. I think this is the reason for the low percentage of success by WR and QB's. I hear on here so much how WR are busts in the first, etc. This was to just see where offensive lines fare in the first. It is hard to gage a OL worth with the information out there. But, alot fo sites base it off games played(which is weak), ypc is used when getting more detailed, sacks given up, and penalties (the last 2 I couldn't find a site for these #.

[jweisk1]

I totally agree with you there are tangibles. Do you think there are no tangibles for any other position? This is a team sport, hell the ball boy has a role. WR has alot of tangibles as well, I would say more than any other postions except QB. I think this is the reason for the low percentage of success by WR and QB's. I hear on here so much how WR are busts in the first, etc. This was to just see where offensive lines fare in the first. It is hard to gage a OL worth with the information out there. But, alot fo sites base it off games played(which is weak), ypc is used when getting more detailed, sacks given up, and penalties (the last 2 I couldn't find a site for these #.

Yeah I guess doing research on actual YPC, with consideration of injuries/systems/RB talent would probably be impossible or nearly a full-time job. Either way I liked the research though... I thought it was a good read.

:applause:

[fansince62]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/100907dnspoutlede.14fb5aa41.html

I won't trust you as others shouldn't either. Yes, you are giving out some wrong info. Well, you are not giving the whole story. Just your version, to base judgements to seem real. Smoke and scree tactic. How do you really expect him to be the #1 when he hurt his hand in preseason. Trust me this guy is worthy. But, to be honest he is probably going to go higher because of his proday and Malcom Kelly's injury.

even when the talent pool is limitted...someone will always go high....that doesn't mean the Skins should invest.

[SUpartyCommish]

The priority of the skins offense should be O-Line hands down. At WR we have Moss, El, Mix, and hopefully Caldwell. That group is legit. O-Line is and has been injury prone...

[Equinoox]

The priority of the skins offense should be O-Line hands down. At WR we have Moss, El, Mix, and hopefully Caldwell. That group is legit. O-Line is and has been injury prone...

Thanks Mr Executive Vice President. NO, It shouldn't be the o-line. I think it should be the BPA. And at our position that could possibly be CB, WR, and yes an OL named Albert. Laron Landry turned out to be very good and a contributor. You were probably one of the ones saying that we should take a DL last year hands down.

Our receivers did not get it done. In '07 (18 td), '06 (19 td), '05 (25 td) ...and you don't think we need help here? How many were by Clinton Portis receiving. Our OL ranked farily decent even with the injuries last year, and you know the other 2 seasons numbers. Keep an open mind.

[skinfan2k]

The priority of the skins offense should be O-Line hands down. At WR we have Moss, El, Mix, and hopefully Caldwell. That group is legit. O-Line is and has been injury prone...

The same WR corps that is scared going through the middle and most of their rec are outside of the hashes, individuals that limit our playcall. We cant do jumpballs or anything to take advantage. All they have is speed.

[RammsteinSkins]

Wow,ive never heard of Vernon Lacy.