Why do people think that GWB is a dim bulb?

[BG]

I do not see any improvement over the last year with regards to Bush's public speaking. In fact, I think it has gotten much worse.

His state of the union was prepared, therefore does not count.

There is a definitly apparent two-headed beast as far as Bush's speaking is concerned. One is the overconfident and re-assuring Bush that many an American-including myslef-listened to and got a little teary eyed for post 9-11.

Then there is the confused, emotionally petrified and exhausted Bush who most resembles a little child informing his whereabouts to his overbearing father. More um's then the indy 500. One gets the feeling that he doesn't know the answer to the question or if he is stupid. I don't care to make a case towards either. What I do feel is that a flaw in his speaking is definitly related to a learning disorder in which thoughts get jumbled in his head. While I would say he is a better public speaker than say 75% of the population, his brand of speaking and tone has been relativly unheard of in a mass medium.

[AJWatson3]

I am not sure why this thread was started? I have been waiting for someone to actually try to defend bush as being intelligent, refined, moral, and "not a dim bulb." i notice no one has really tried, and I commend all of you for that. he makes it tough for you.

I do give him props for that last series of staged Q&A he had with the media a few days ago. He memorized everything he needed to say, came off as very stern and saddened, and answered many questions people have about the war. whomever prepped him and fed the questions to reporters did very well.

"no, not you, it's not your turn yet."

[Tarhog]

Look...just a few points....

a) Supposed 'raw intelligence' is overrated....I've heard many people say time and time again that Carter was one of the 'most intelligent' Presidents ever. Well, he was a disaster as a President. I'm not sure Reagan was the sharpest tool in the shed, yet (regardless of whether you agreed with his politics), he was one of the most successful Presidents in history in terms of getting his agenda through.

Is everybody here comfortable posting their SAT scores? Is everybody here who would rather not a failure and incapable of great things? Didn't think so.

c) How much experience do any of us have speaking under the kind of pressure politicians have to operate under? I know I couldn't get through single unscripted press conference without saying something stupid.

I have no problem with folks that don't agree with anything Bush stands for or disagree with his politics. But I just can't agree that anyone gets to be the President of the United States as a 'dim bulb'. You've got to have intelligence at some level, whether its political savvy, common sense, strategic cunning, or polished public speaking ability, you've got to be reasonably smart to get there.

[AJWatson3]

Originally posted by Tarhog

You've got to have intelligence at some level, whether its political savvy, common sense, strategic cunning, or polished public speaking ability, you've got to be reasonably smart to get there.

You are forgetting that in Bush's case, as with many politicians nowadays, that money trumps all these great characteristics.

You've got to be reasonably wealthy to get there...

If Bush weren't a Bush he would be in the brig for abandoning his Air National Guard duties, or in jail for having too many DUI's, or on a coke charge. He has lived his entire life above the law because of the chance he had in being a BUSH. Well at least until he tried to straighten his life out and stop his "youthful indescretions" (around his mid-30's). If there are no more qualified people that can run for president we should all be very ASHAMED to be AMERICANS. He should represent the best and brightest. PERIOD.

[RiggoDrill]

Why is Bush considered dumb? Well, that's too obvious ... Codeorama's quote list effectively demonstrates why this perception exists.

To make things interesting, let's turn this question around to the conservatives here:

What evidence do you see that George W. Bush IS more intelligent than he seems? How does he compare to other conservative presidents or candidates over time?

For starters, how does GW's worldview compare to that of, say, Richard Nixon?

Or ... as GW's ability to lead delegate is often mentioned as one of his strengths, how does he compare to Eisenhower?

[codeorama]

Originally posted by AJWatson3

You are forgetting that in Bush's case, as with many politicians nowadays, that money trumps all these great characteristics.

You've got to be reasonably wealthy to get there...

If Bush weren't a Bush he would be in the brig for abandoning his Air National Guard duties, or in jail for having too many DUI's, or on a coke charge. He has lived his entire life above the law because of the chance he had in being a BUSH. Well at least until he tried to straighten his life out and stop his "youthful indescretions" (around his mid-30's). If there are no more qualified people that can run for president we should all be very ASHAMED to be AMERICANS. He should represent the best and brightest. PERIOD.

Don't forget, his neice woud be in Jail rather than rehab for her multiple drug offenses, including possesion of drugs in a rehab facility... "Bush... tough of drugs... unless it's family" :doh:

[Tarhog]

Wow...so it took you this long to figure out the Golden Rule...you know..he who has the gold makes the rules...Its probably because good ol' GWB is the first to benefit from a family fortune. The b@stard. Who does he think he is anyway? Now Al Gore....theres a self-made man we can all admire. Pulling himself up by the bootstraps from the muck of Tennessee. All those years as a coalminer finally paid off bigtime, right?

Yeah, you make a valid point that money matters. So what? You failed to address my point, which was that no dummies make it to the US Presidency. I won't waste a lot of my time trying to convince you that the President is reasonably intelligent, because some of us aren't intellectually honest enough to admit we might be wrong. The guy made it through the MBA program at a tough school. That alone should speak to something. He ran a successful business with the Texas Rangers (hell, some of you were arguing he was a shrewd money-grubbing tyrant taking advantage of the poor masses in another thread - that sounds like it might take some smarts to me?). He had a successful highly popular reign as Governor. He defied most of the predictions by not launching an all-out armaggedon after 9/11 and acting in a measured calculated way. He's assembled the best foreign policy team in recent memory, and helped his party win both houses of Congress. He's been his 'own man' whether thats right or wrong, relying neither on Daddy, Dick Cheney, or anyone else, which again defies all of the predictions that he would be a puppet for the real grownups in the White House. He married a classy, smart, and devoted woman...now that seems smart to me. I've already said he may not be our brightest President, but making the guy out to be some fumbling, bumbling idiot who can't tie his own shoe laces flies in the face of logic.

[codeorama]

My contention would be that all politicians are lying scum.. Bush, Clinton, Gore, Cheney... it doesn't matter.. here on extremeskins, the right often forgets both sides... Case in point... Clinton often gets bashed for dodging the draft and deservedly so.. however, don't forget that Bush essentially did the same and got away with it because of his family name and money.. The right never mentions this.. Bush is the "moral choice"... ect ect... it's all the same to me.

So please forgive me if I seem only to be ganging up on Bush, If Clinton were in office, I would be doing the same.

Also, Tarhog, you are correct that there are no "dummies" in the white house in the grand scheme of things... I just feel that Bush's past comments warrent him being labeled a "moron", just as I would label Clinton as a "moron" for putting himself in the position he did.. of course it's not true, they have to be intelligent to get where they are and were respectively .

Can anyone name a recent president that did not have family money? Today, you pretty much have to be rich to even think of running for office.

[AJWatson3]

Originally posted by RiggoDrill

Why is Bush considered dumb? Well, that's too obvious ... Codeorama's quote list effectively demonstrates why this perception exists.

To make things interesting, let's turn this question around to the conservatives here:

What evidence do you see that George W. Bush IS more intelligent than he seems? How does he compare to other conservative presidents or candidates over time?

For starters, how does GW's worldview compare to that of, say, Richard Nixon?

Or ... as GW's ability to lead delegate is often mentioned as one of his strengths, how does he compare to Eisenhower?

Riggo, you are asking too much from those representing the "always RIGHT". They aren't going to defend him any more than saying: he made it through an MBA program at a tough school (and I am sure he got equal treatment from the admissions committee and all his profs); he ran a successfull business with the Rangers (? he owned like 1/100% of the team? and how successfull were they? they played basically .500 ball through the 80's and early 90's); he took good advice after 9-11 (thank jebus for powell!)??

These questions you ask won't get answered, but even to do so might take a while, I prob wouldn't want to answer them either.

I was just sitting around the other day and it came to me-- politicians come from money... it was such a shock. Never considered that before...

Tarhog, it is really sad to see you excited about the prospect that our country is run by the wealthy and not the qualified. But I supposed if I kept voting for the fools the dominant parties run I would be pretty numbed to the fact and not care either.

Would these two qualify as not coming from money:

Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were self-made men. Have you seen Clinton's boyhood home? Talk about a peice of ****. I am surprised he made it out of there. Peanut farmer... there is a position of noble heritage and immense benefits. Maybe if cars ran on peanut oil...

[mardi gras skin]

At one time, I remember that George Bush was listed as one of the least wealthy owners of any MLB team.

I think he's been smart enough to chart the agenda and turn his ideas into policy that gets passed. Because he's effective, people who agree with his policies will love him and those who disagree with loathe him.

[Tarhog]

I generally agree with you Code that we could do better in terms of what types of folks are attracted to politics to begin with. But I think its laughable how the general populace points to the candidates as 'a bunch of crooks...they're all the same...etc..' and to the process as corrupt saying 'its all about who has the most money'. There of course is a nugget of truth there. But this same populace gets its news from MTV and Oprah, spends hours daily glued to reality TV shows, rarely reads anything more complex than the cereal box at breakfast, and doesn't have the patience for anything more than 'sound bytes' when it comes to political topics. When we do elect a leader, we expend a great deal of energy trying to figure out how to attack, undermine, and sabotage everything the individual does (and yes Code, that is a truly destructive trend that both sides of the political spectrum ae guilty of). Why would our 'best and brightest' want to run for office?! We get what we deserve. AJ has a little class warfare issue going...and thats a whole thread in itself. In my life experience, it seems to me that the wealthy (barring a few exceptions) got that way by hard work, smarts, and perserverence. They pass that advantage to their children. In biology they call it natural selection. I don't see anything ominous in that and it will never change in a democratic society. Now if you prefer a socialist society, you might see that issue addressed. I've seen the same kind of contempt and resentment here regarding Dan Snyder....when it turns out the guy made it on his own through sheer b@lls and determination. By the way AJ, I don't agree with you very often, but you state your positions clearly and well (and know how to spell). Props on that. I'll stand by what I said, Bush is no dummy, he just can't speak in public. But if it makes you feel better to paint me as a mindless party hack, thats cool too.

[AJWatson3]

Originally posted by Tarhog

I generally agree with you Code that we could do better in terms of what types of folks are attracted to politics to begin with. But I think its laughable how the general populace points to the candidates as 'a bunch of crooks...they're all the same...etc..' and to the process as corrupt saying 'its all about who has the most money'. There of course is a nugget of truth there. But this same populace gets its news from MTV and Oprah, spends hours daily glued to reality TV shows, rarely reads anything more complex than the cereal box at breakfast, and doesn't have the patience for anything more than 'sound bytes' when it comes to political topics.

AJ has a little class warfare issue going...and thats a whole thread in itself.

By the way AJ, I don't agree with you very often, but you state your positions clearly and well (and know how to spell). Props on that. I'll stand by what I said, Bush is no dummy, he just can't speak in public. But if it makes you feel better to paint me as a mindless party hack, thats cool too.

Tarhog, your opinions, while not always like mine, are respected. You also make clear arguments and the dialogue (I might have spelled that wrong??-- it is very early/late, just getting home from work and near seeing double) is stimulating. Something I don't get enough of now that I am out of school...

about the mtv/oprah crowd-- I don't really think they even vote. Or I at least hope not.

And I thought Oprah just ran a book club now, she still does TV?

me, class warfare?-- yeah there is a bit of a socialist twinge running in me. don't get me on any lists though. i am a hard-working american who loves football, beer, and the freedom to express my opinions without fear. i am just very passionate about politics and the like...

and about the party hack thing... i just have never met a conservative that has admitted he was ever wrong about anything... or that they don't know what is best for everyone. the "always RIGHT".

and as the sun rises up it is time for me to settle down... and do it all over again tomorrow. swing shift blows.

[fansince62]

in many ways this is laughable....whether one agrees or not with the policy prescriptions...Bush's administration is setting the agenda........the critics are responding: they aren't formulating. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[AJWatson3]

Originally posted by fansince62

in many ways this is laughable....whether one agrees or not with the policy prescriptions...Bush's administration is setting the agenda........the critics are responding: they aren't formulating. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Well it's good to know that Bush isn't just sitting around scratching his balls all day long... WTF do you expect an administration to do? THEY ALL HAVE AGENDAS AND SET POLICY, no matter who agrees or disagrees... and there are many critics around the world that have formulated other ways to "end" the war before it begins... they basically involve waiting... not all are like that though.

Bush can do whatever he wants as president... he could try to drown the Iraqi military by dropping vats of pudding over them and you would laud his ingenuity. It is still setting an agenda be it right or wrong...

[fansince62]

AJ...I didn't even vote for the man in the last election....so direct your tirades elsewhere....they aren't registering here.

it's clear you are content with crimes against humanity. it is clear you are comfortable with the proliferation of WMDs. it is clear you have no particular urge to increase freedom........it's clear you have no friggin clue what is going on in that part of the world or that you cynically don't care. you continue to believe that mechanisms which have DEMONSTRABLY failed can, through some magic alembic, become functional/effective instruments.

whatever.....fulminate all you want!!!!! if it makes you feel better.....I'm all for it.......

[AJWatson3]

Originally posted by fansince62

AJ...I didn't even vote for the man in the last election....so direct your tirades elsewhere....they aren't registering here.

it's clear you are content with crimes against humanity. it is clear you are comfortable with the proliferation of WMDs. it is clear you have no particular urge to increase freedom........it's clear you have no friggin clue what is going on in that part of the world or that you cynically don't care. you continue to believe that mechanisms which have DEMONSTRABLY failed can, through some magic alembic, become functional/effective instruments.

whatever.....fulminate all you want!!!!! if it makes you feel better.....I'm all for it.......

I think you got lost somewhere...?

Where is all this bull**** you are spewing come from?

Not really sure what I wrote (ever) that would lead you to believe this load.

[Brave]

Originally posted by IAMBG

I do not see any improvement over the last year with regards to Bush's public speaking. In fact, I think it has gotten much worse.

His state of the union was prepared, therefore does not count.

... What I do feel is that a flaw in his speaking is definitly related to a learning disorder in which thoughts get jumbled in his head. While I would say he is a better public speaker than say 75% of the population, his brand of speaking and tone has been relativly unheard of in a mass medium.

IAMBG, with all due respect, this post doesn't really respond well to my post about Bush's public speaking for the following reasons:

- I did not say he improved his speaking "over the last year", but rather from the time he was campaigning to shortly after taking office. That would be over two years ago. Read over his campaign speeches and you will see one misquote after another. While I wouldn't say he is an effective speaker now, he doesn't embarrass himself regularly any more.

- Speeches being prepared or not isn't really relevant. Someone who struggles to speak to large groups would likely struggle with a prepared speech or while winging it.

- Poor public speaking need not derive from a learning disorder, either. Thoughts can get jumbled in the head due to nervousness and fear of public speaking, which I would think is quite common (and a tough obstacle for a politician to overcome.)

- I can't imagine on what basis you would say Bush "is a better public speaker than say 75% of the population." I doubt very seriously if more than a very small percentage of the population speaks to the public and then, only a small percentage of those would we ever actually have the chance to hear and evaluate.

[JimboDaMan]

GWB is considered stupid for the same reason that Al Gore is considered to be a liar: because the media told people so, and people in general are sheep.

Those two concepts framed the last presidential election. Virtually complete falsehoods, they drowned out any realistic discussion of policy. Why? Because its much more fun to ridicule GWB's "won't get fooled again" quote, or pretend Gore claimed to invent the Internet.

[Kilmer17]

I just hope the left keeps thinking he's stupid.

[@DCGoldPants]

Just because a person isn't "Smart" doesn't mean they are Stupid. You can be a "middle of the road" type of guy. Its just that people want their President to have a high IQ and a photographic memory.

Whatever, didn't someone like Eisenhower say "The C Students run the world"?

[codeorama]

Originally posted by JimboDaMan

GWB is considered stupid for the same reason that Al Gore is considered to be a liar: because the media told people so, and people in general are sheep.

Those two concepts framed the last presidential election. Virtually complete falsehoods, they drowned out any realistic discussion of policy. Why? Because its much more fun to ridicule GWB's "won't get fooled again" quote, or pretend Gore claimed to invent the Internet.

good post..

[Ryman of the North]

i do think he is simple but not stupid just slightly less than average intelligence but cunning.why? one word strategery!

[Ghost of Woodson]

Codearama

I think something on the scale of 99/100 of those quotes you listed were circulating the internet 8 years ago and attributed to Dan Quayle.

Now I wonder if they were even said by Quayle, considering the outright fraud in those quotes.

I'm serious, retract that list, because the same list was going around when I was at Michigan, before Dubya was a national figure.

[Art]

For the record, Al Gore IS a liar. It's not something you are told. It's clear. The man told a union crowd that his mother sang "Look for the Union Label" to him to put him to sleep. The song was written when he was 27. It's more than just the amusing internet story that gets Gore to be considered a dope. As for Bush, the fact is, he's not a great public speaker. He's very plain spoken and following a rather dynamic speaker like Clinton, there's a clear difference in style and substance.

Clearly Bush is a smarter man than any of us, or any of the people who claim he's dumb. Afterall, he's the President and we're not. .

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Ghost of Woodson

Codearama

I think something on the scale of 99/100 of those quotes you listed were circulating the internet 8 years ago and attributed to Dan Quayle.

Now I wonder if they were even said by Quayle, considering the outright fraud in those quotes.

I'm serious, retract that list, because the same list was going around when I was at Michigan, before Dubya was a national figure.

Nowhere have I said that Bush is a Moron, I posted that list to show why many perceive him as a moron. As to the list's validity... I have no idea, but I do know that I have seen Bush make statements that I have laughed at and wondered what he is thinking, most of them have been during the election campaign during interviews or debates. But I will be one of the first to say that you can't always believe everything you read on the internet, but remember, that goes both ways.