Why do people think that GWB is a dim bulb?

[Ghost of Woodson]

Ok Code,

You're misunderstanding me. Forget whether or not one believes Bush to be a bad speaker, or nervous or stupid. I'm simply making a statement about that list and just about ALL of those quotes are misattributed.

I was alive back then, you know. The list is false, not saying that you say it's true, but it's falsely attributed. Which makes me wonder about if anyone originally said them (except Quayle, who I believe did say a few of those things)

So the only debate I have with that post is just that it was around years before Bush was a national figure, and these EXACT SAME LINES were attributed to Quayle.

It is false information is all I'm saying.

[PCS]

Here. From a Dan Quayle quotes site. Some may look familiar. These are attributed to Quayle. May not have been him.

http://www.meer.net/~mtoy/dan_quayle.html

From an urban legends site.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/quayle.htm

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

"Welcome to President Bush, Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts."

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit . . . Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared.'"

"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."

"The future will be better tomorrow."

"We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world."

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."

"I am not part of the problem. I am a Republican."

"I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix."

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."

"When I have been asked during these last weeks who caused the riots and the killing in L.A., my answer has been direct and simple: Who is to blame for the riots? The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to blame."

"Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."

"[it's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."

[JimboDaMan]

For the record, Al Gore IS a liar. It's not something you are told. It's clear. The man told a union crowd that his mother sang "Look for the Union Label" to him to put him to sleep. The song was written when he was 27. It's more than just the amusing internet story that gets Gore to be considered a dope. As for Bush, the fact is, he's not a great public speaker. He's very plain spoken and following a rather dynamic speaker like Clinton, there's a clear difference in style and substance.

Thank you for providing a perfect example of sheepery.

You know this is what happened, because the media told you. But its not true.

Al Gore, in a speech to a labor audience, cracked a joke that he was so union-friendly his momma sang him union songs to sleep as a child. The audience - a union audience, who would be certain to know the background of this song - laughed at this joke. The videotape bears this out. Nobody was confused by this. No reporters uncovered a smoking gun.

The story of the "union lie" came from the Republican National Committee. There's no doubt they knew the truth. Truth is not a valued commodity during a presidential election. The RNC - the real liars here - with the help of the supposedly "leftist" media - created a completely false store accusing Gore of lying.

And the sheep are still repeating it.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by JimboDaMan

Thank you for providing a perfect example of sheepery.

You know this is what happened, because the media told you. But its not true.

Al Gore, in a speech to a labor audience, cracked a joke that he was so union-friendly his momma sang him union songs to sleep as a child. The audience - a union audience, who would be certain to know the background of this song - laughed at this joke. The videotape bears this out. Nobody was confused by this. No reporters uncovered a smoking gun.

The story of the "union lie" came from the Republican National Committee. There's no doubt they knew the truth. Truth is not a valued commodity during a presidential election. The RNC - the real liars here - with the help of the supposedly "leftist" media - created a completely false store accusing Gore of lying.

And the sheep are still repeating it.

Jimbo, I agree with you... both sides use half truths to propagate their lies, it goes on and on.

[CounterTre]

"Al Gore, in a speech to a labor audience, cracked a joke that he was so union-friendly his momma sang him union songs to sleep as a child. The audience - a union audience, who would be certain to know the background of this song - laughed at this joke. The videotape bears this out. Nobody was confused by this. No reporters uncovered a smoking gun."

Very interesting! Ya gotta love debates like this for no other reason than the bullshznit that get's exposed. Both parties do it to each other so they are equally to blame. Dan Quayle got the same treatment although with things like The Great Potato Incident he kind of asked for it.

[JimboDaMan]

That's "potatoe", CT, "potatoe". :laugh: :laugh:

You're right, Quayle was another one brutalized by the press.

Y'know, I apologize for using the term "sheep", its probably uncalled for.

It just drives me nuts the kind of stuff people swallow unquestioningly, especially if it fits their pre-conceived notions.

[Art]

Jimbo,

I saw the speech. It wasn't a joke. People did laugh, because it was cute. A mom singing a union lullabye. Gore got caught. He didn't know when the song was written. He specified which song it was. And it turned out later that he was 27. But, make no mistake, if you saw the speech, Gore was relating a PERSONAL experience story to get closer to the audience. And, it turned out, as with most personal stories he told, the point was expanded so as to be a lie. It never ceases to amaze me to see people defend the indefensible.

Gore is a liar. Please don't be so blind by political loyalty as to ignore the numerous and legendary examples of Al squeezing more out of a statement that reality allows. It's almost part of the man's charm. I just wouldn't want that charm as a President.

[JimboDaMan]

:rolleyes:

I don't see how an impartial party can watch that clip and come to the that conclusion, so I won't pursue it.

But if you'd like to recount some of those "legendary" lies I'll be glad to discuss them. Especially since "legend" pretty much accurately describes most of what you think you know about Al Gore.

[Art]

Sad, indeed, Jimbo.

I don't deny the problems Bush had, especially early on, with some legendary speaking gaffs that allow for comment on his general intelligence. We don't know if he's the smartest guy or not, but we know why he's not considered the smartest guy. You have decided to deny that Gore is a known exaggeration liar that has been shown time and again. Be careful using sheep as a label for others when you so refuse to even acknowledge factual assessments such as these, because it would appear you are far more herded than most.

[NavyDave]

Heck Jimmy Carter was a nuclear officer but his brains didnt translate not success did they?

Al Gore is always depicted as a wooden doll or robot without a sufficient OS system.

Dubba ya I have to say keeps it simple and to the point.

I dont need the sleekness just the substance.

[JimboDaMan]

Quite true, Dave. Both Carter and Clinton could run rings around either GWB or Ronald Reagan in the brains department. And that seemed to have either zero or an inverse effect on effectiveness as President.

[JimboDaMan]

it would appear you are far more herded than most

Does that make sense to you? If I'm far more of anything than most, then by definition I'm not going with the herd.

The conventional wisdom is that Al Gore is a liar. Therefore, since you seem to agree, it is you who are following the herd.

as with most personal stories he told, the point was expanded so as to be a lie

My friend, especially in the realm of Gore's personal life is where the conservative and media-fed "misconceptions" are to be found.

[Art]

Jimbo,

You are representing the pathetic nature of people who are hacks for a political party. You refuse to acknowledge even a fair assessment of a person you clearly support. Anything negative about that person is rejected as nonsense or somehow untrue, when, in fact, it only displays a blind and sad loyalty and inability to allow yourself to individually measure the men you support to lead us.

It's not conventional wisdom that dictates what Al Gore is. It is the reality of his words that define him. Failure to recognize his weakness displays a lack of clarity on your part and that's why you are far more herded than most, because you refuse to break ranks to even express the obvious. Instead, you'll deny it's validity which is just a poor tactic.

Errors as simple as calling a trillion dollars one million billion to errors as calculated and clearly false and disingenuious as saying he was part of the strategic reserve discussions from the very beginning even though they took place prior to him ever being involved. Misleading statements about a Democratic booster who had to pick up cans to pay for her medicine when, in fact, she didn't have to do that at all, or poorly calculated stories about the relative cost of his mother's medicine compared to that of a pet just punctuate the repeated lies and untruths, whether innocent or openly told, is not in question. To question it shines you under a very unflattering light.

[JimboDaMan]

Ahh, the sweet voice of reason. Blanket, sweeping generalizations about me. Untrue, for the most part, but what does that matter? When you're Right, you're right!

Quickly now: prior to becoming a congressman Gore was a member of a House Commerce Committee panel directly involved in setting up the petroleum reserve. Not that anyone cares much about the truth.

Gore accurately quoted wholesale prices for people vs. pets for a specific drug, noting accurately that the price for humans is triple that for pets. He knew of this disparity because, oddly, both his dog and his mother-in-law took the same drug (there's a joke in there someplace). He didn't state that the dollar amounts he discussed were what his poor mother-in-law paid at her corner drugstore - nor does it matter to anyone other than the terminally insane. They were accurate prices he quoted from a congressional report. Not that anyone cares much about the truth.

I'm not familiar with the picking up cans story, I'll look into it. Perhaps at least THAT one has some basis in fact.

[Art]

Jimbo,

Again, you should PRESUME I have more and better information than you in these types of conversations. But, you are absolutely right. Gore was a member of a House committee directly involved with setting up the reserve. But, that's not what he said. His PRECISE quote was, "I've been a part of the discussions on the strategic reserve since the days when it was first established."

What's interesting is that the Strategic Petroleum Reserves were established when Ford signed into law the Energy Policy and Conservation Act (EPCA). That was signed on Dec. 22, 1975. Al Gore didn't join the House of Representatives until Jan. 1977. So, it's impossibel for him to have been part of discussions since it was first established. He came in after the fact.

Saying he was part of the discussions is a lie because it isn't true. Had he said he was part of the establishment of the reserves, he'd have been fine, because, in truth, the actual reserves weren't established until Gore was in the Congress. But, he didn't say that. The only way you can deny Gore's essential weakness is to be a blind party hack. If so little I say is true, then you'll have to prove it's not, because it looks awfully true.

[JimboDaMan]

What I can PRESUME is that you will doggedly beat any subject until your victim runs out of energy. But, I love ya anyway.

In fact, the concept of strategic oil reserves began during WWII and gained some momentum in the fifties. On the date you so graciously supplied in 1975 a law was enacted which, in the words of the Department of Energy, "declared it to be U.S. policy to establish a reserve" of petroleum. The actual reserve was not established until 1977, while Gore was a congressman.

So you can take his statement at face value, since nobody disputes he actually had a part in setting up the reserves. Or you can decide that he's lying because the law passed a few months earlier. Or you can point out the impossiblity of him being involved at the outset since he was probably an infant when the idea first began. Maybe he talked about it to his mom in between union lullabies?

Its not hard to approach a subject with the presumption of lying, then parse the words carefully to find something we can interperate as a lie. GWB is vulnerable to plenty of the same criticisms. All it takes is a slanted approach to the subject.

[Art]

Jimbo,

The simple fact of the matter is the statement he made is a lie. It's false. It's not a slanted approach. Hell, it was the WASHINGTON POST that wrote the story about this Gore lie. The fact is, Gore CAN'T communicate without embellishing. Some are innocent. Some are bold lies. The only defense Gore has is from people who are straight party hacks. It's the trait that allows so much questioning of Gore being a liar, just as it's the errors in speaking by Bush that allow you to question his intelligence. At least I can admit it. It's a shame you can't.

[JimboDaMan]

But in fact I just demonstrated to you that it is not a lie, that the petroleum reserve was not established until 1977. You wish for him to be lying, so you will grasp at a silly insistence that the reserve was 'established' at the moment the law authorizing the policy was passed. It is beyond silly, yet I am the one who twists things.

Let me leave you with this thought. Back again to the union song. No less a conservative than Robert Novak has grudgingly admitted, after watching the video, that it was "plausible" that Gore was joking. Yet Art insists he has watched the video, that the verdict is clear that Gore is telling a lie, and he uses words like 'pathetic' and 'party hack' in describing those who believe otherwise.

So in order to trust Art's judgment in this matter, we must consider Novak to be a tool of the Democratic party since according to Art he 'defends the indefensible'.

[Art]

Jimbo,

It's impossible for Gore to have engaged in the the discussions on the strategic reserve from the initial days because it was signed into law prior to his ever coming into office in any capacity. Again, Ford signed the reserves into law in 1975. That established the reserves. Gore just was part of the crew that implemented the law later. In order to make himself more important than he is he had to expand beyond reality to make a point and that's a trademark of Al Gore.

It has nothing to do with wishing he was lying. He was lying. That's part of his essential personality. The extreme tendency to expand the truth is part of Al Gore and it has been for YEARS. Failure to see that is what makes you a blind party hack. You don't have to agree in any one case. I don't know that you've accurately captured Novak's position on the Union Label situation, but, finding flaw with a single point against Gore is great.

You have taken the blanket that even when he's lying, he's not really. I mean, afterall, you can stretch in many cases his words to mean a true thing. But, with Gore, the character trait is too clear to deny and denying it brings YOU into question.

Remember when he said he was with Witt during the Texas fires. In fact, he wasn't. In one of the debates Gore stated he'd never questioned Bush's experience to be the President. Some six months before he made that quote in the debate, the New York Times quoted Gore as saying, "“You have to wonder whether [bush] has the experience to be president. I mean, you really have to wonder. ... You have to wonder: Does Governor Bush have the experience to be president? ... Again you have to wonder: Does George Bush have the experience to be president?”

When he spoke of the young Florida student who had to stand during class because the school couldn't fit another desk into her classroom, that was actually untrue according to the school principal. He stated during one debate that drug companies spent more on advertising than on research, which isn't true according to media reports and company records.

On tobacco, one of Gore's biggest problems with truth, he was quoted in 2000 as saying, “It’s not fair to say, ‘Okay, after his sister died, he continued in the same relationship with the tobacco industry.’ I did not. I did not. I began to confront them forcefully. I don’t see the inconsistency there.”

In the month his sister died, reports show he took money from U.S. Tobacco as a speaker. At one point, Gore said, "My family had grown tobacco. It was never actually grown on my farm, but it was on my father’s farm.” But, a year earlier he said, "On my farm, we stopped growing tobacco some time after Nancy died."

Gore stated at one point that Bush had never submitted a budget while govenor of Texas. According to Texas law, the governor is defined as "the chief budget officer of the state," and Bush had actually done up budgets while governor. During his run for President he said, "We had a huge event with 3,000 people at Ohio State University.” The New York Times reported the room only holds 1,200 people max and the school said that due to some of the overhead only 500 or so were there.

Remember when Gore said he was a co-sponsor of the McCain-Feingold legislation? Gore and Feingold never served together in the Senate and even Gore took back this false statement. These are just a handful of events I actually remember at the time going over lists of various Al Gore tall tales.

He said he was the author of the Earned Income Tax Credit, which was enacted in 1975, again, before he entered Congress. When running for President, Gore said on the Test-Ban Treaty, “I ask for your support, and your mandate if elected president, to send this treaty back to the Senate with your demand that they ratify it. I’ve worked on this for 20 years because, unless we get this one right, nothing else matters.”

In 1988 when running for President, he said, “the very idea of having a complete ban on all flight-testing of missiles when we rely on deterrence for the survival of our civilization”. This was more humorous than anything, because he was actually against this type of thing when he was working on it for the last 20 years . Not a true lie, just an omission that was amusing here.

But, it's IMPOSSIBLE to neglect to see the types of things Al Gore is prone to. You have yet to admit one flaw. If you want I can trap you by providing a list of JUST things Gore himself admitted was incorrect. But, that shouldn't be necessary. The fact that Gore is perceived as a liar is because the man IS a liar, just as Bush's interesting hacking of the English language is why he's often not considered intelligent.

There are DOZENS of these problems in Gore's speaking history. It's not looking for lies either, Jimbo. It's when Gore says he was the co-author of a bill he wasn't an author of at all, it makes him seem like he's lying. He's done this time and again. So, I'll repeat, if you refuse to acknowledge even the most factual assessment of a man like Al Gore, it calls YOU into question, because you continue to defend the indefensible.

This would be much easier to just say, "Well, yeah, Gore has had his share of slip ups." Because very few of his lies can actually be considered dangerous. Perhaps his lies on the fund raising were, but, in general, Gore seems more like a goofy braggart who happens to get caught more often than not and it's not a terrible thing. It's people like you who defend such stuff though that make it more than it is. Let me know if we need to go full force into the history of Al Gore though. I've got more .

[JimboDaMan]

This would be much easier to just say, "Well, yeah, Gore has had his share of slip ups."

If you knew me you would know that is exactly my position. Notice the wording – “his share”. All politicians do this at times. It’s willfully ignorant to believe otherwise. It’s also incredibly naïve to believe that people who’s policies I disagree with somehow coincidentally suffer from damaging character flaws that, happily, MY guys don’t share. Just like the amazingly happy coincidence that Redskin fans are quite knowledgeable while it’s a rare bird from another team who isn’t a blithering idiot. :doh: Let me feed a little Bush into the fire.

When he launched his presidential bid in 1999, Bush was asked in an interview whether he had the required experience. His answer: BUSH: “I answer it that I’ve never lived in Washington in my life. The presidency is a huge step compared to governor of Texas. I know that. I know that. But if I didn’t think was ready, I wouldn’t be asking Americans to give me a good look.” A bald-faced lie, Bush spent almost two years living in DC as an assistant in his father’s 1988 campaign. He lived in a very nice apartment in upper-crusty Mass Ave.

Bush has repeatedly made the statement: “the biggest difference between me and my father is that he went to Greenwich Country Day and I went to San Jacinto Junior High.” Well, yes. For one year, seventh grade. The rest of his schooling took place at Andover, the Kincaid School, and Yale. Dishonest and deceitful, not to mention disrespectful of dear old Dad.

Of course we’re all familiar with the drunk-diving bust that was exposed late in the game after Bush had been asked repeatedly over the years whether he had something like that in his past. His answers where evasive and deceitful although maybe not to the level of outright lying – maybe “weasel” is the most appropriate term for Dubya’s performance.

Art disputes the visual evidence that Gore spoke in jest about his mom singing union lullabies to him as an infant. Fair enough, that’s his opinion. It’s my opinion that Dubya was rolling drunk in that wedding video shot years after he continues to insist he quit drinking. I guess its in the eye of the beholder.

Now for Gore:

He stated during one debate that drug companies spent more on advertising than on research, which isn't true according to media reports and company records

Not familiar so I won’t dispute that. But during the same debate Bush lied about his own prescription drug proposal, claiming all seniors would receive immediate assistance. When Gore pointed out that Bush’s plan included an income cutoff, Bush denied it repeatedly. Bush's own web site proved the lie.

When he spoke of the young Florida student who had to stand during class because the school couldn't fit another desk into her classroom, that was actually untrue according to the school principal.

Now it is Art playing loosely with the truth. Gore quoted from an article in a Florida paper about a girl who had to stand in class because of crowding. The story was true; the girl went without a desk for two weeks. By the time Gore cited the article, the girl did in fact have a desk – because a boy gave up his desk for her, and now HE had no desk. This is another troubling example of Gore lying.

In one of the debates Gore stated he'd never questioned Bush's experience to be the President.

The opening question to Gore was why he questioned Bush’s fitness to be president. Gore answered “I’m not actually questioning his experience, I’m questioning his proposals” and went on to make his opening statement. The questioner pounced with a single instance 6 months earlier (that you quoted). Gore did not dispute this, but again returned to a discussion of policy. Its clear that although on one occasion Gore did question Bush’s experience, he never did again and had no desire to do so during the debate. Whatever you make of it, it isn’t the bald lie you present.

OK, I’m almost done, and I’m wasting bandwidth, and most of all I’m wasting my own time arguing with a brick wall. Some of the other items you posted I’m sure are equally false, some are no doubt true. As an example, I believe Gore exaggerated any role he may have had in the Earned Income Tax Credit. Much, I’m compelled to note, as Mr. Bush has exaggerated his own experience running businesses that have been handed to him

[Art]

Jimbo,

To be honest your post is remarkable for the blind boosterism it displays. You are denying even clear falsehoods by Gore, misrepresenting what he said and claiming I'm playing loose with the truth. Sadly I'll have to leave an in depth response until tomorrow, but your post proves precisely what I was saying. You refuse to acknowledge even factual issues with Gore making YOU and your judgement the issue. That's sad. But, that's not much different than Gore .

[JimboDaMan]

Hmmm.

My position, if I haven't been clear enough so far, is that my guy and your guy are pretty much equals. Both are successful people, both are more or less honorable political leaders, within the bounds of what is required in contemporary America. I prefer my guy, because he charts a policy course which I believe is best for my country. If I thought an alternative was more desirable I would go for it (for instance, I voted for Bush senior the first time).

Fer chrissakes, this is more important than an ego trip.

Blind boosterism. We'll see.

[DIESEL TROLL]

GEEZ CODE......WHO YA TRYIN' TO "BAFFLE" NOW? THE MEDIA DIDN'T PERSECUTE CLINTON, HE DID IT TO HIMSELF.....REMEMBER? HE'S THE ONE WHO DIDN'T INHALE OR HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN {AND PUH-LEEZE DON'T FORGET THE STERN LOOK AND POINTING FINGER WHEN VISUALIZING} OR DODGE THE DRAFT OR DECIMATE OUR MILITARY OR SELL OUT THE LINCOLN BEDROOM, OR TRY TO "PROCURE" THE DISHES OFF OF AIR FORCE 1, OR SELL SOME OF OUR GYRO SCIENCE TO THE CHINESE THAT THREATENED TO FLATTEN LOS ANGELES ONLY 4 MONTHS PRIOR!!!!!

CAN YA FEEL THAT TUG ON YER EARS CODE??? I'M TRYIN' TO HELP YA ........

[chunky Salsa]

I do take issue with those quotes. They are Dan Quayle's quotes. I have my own web page with them :laugh: . Actually, I am a bit of a Dan Quayle fan. He's the Homer Simpson of Politics (minus the poverty and beer gut). But oddly enough for all of his mangling of facts and speech, his Murphy Brown speech is hailed as a Conservative turning point.

I would say George is a person of average intelligence -maybe slightly above average. Judging by his abuse of the English language and disrespect of many grammer conventions, he's probably score low on the verbal portion. Though, his speech pattern is identical to his fathers (not hard to believe), but his father had a better working vocabulary. I would say the father had high or a very high IQ in my opinion. Of course this has absolutely no scientific validity (the whole notion of IQ is contriversial to some people), just a my strictly unbiased opinion.:laugh: