Genocides where catholics were the victims

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

A long term war was fought in the country. Almost everyone who died did so from disease and famine.

How about the The Great Famine of the mid-nineteenth century?

[Corcaigh]

How about the The Great Famine of the mid-nineteenth century?

How about it?

A crop failed and many of the landlords (Irish and English) didn't do much to help.

An estimated ten million kids die worldwide each year from malnutrition, a majority in Africa. Would you claim that as an act of genocide by the wealthy countries?

[Larry Brown #43]

A long term war was fought in the country. Almost everyone who died did so from disease and famine.

The disease resulted from "famine," however "famine" in this case is truly a misnomer. There was no shortage of food in Ireland, as British landowners continued to eat whatever they wanted to eat before, during, and after the potato famine.

It was illegal for Irish Catholics to own land, become educated, speak their native language, enter professions, practice their religion, vote, hold an office, or buy things. We're essentially talking about slavery here.

The plentiful food of the land was exploited by the English landlords, who profited from the exportation of the goods. The Irish farmers, meanwhile, were reliant on the potato for subsistence. And when the potato crop failed, the British stood by and allowed the Irish to starve.

This is not a famine at all. A forced famine, perhaps. A forced starvation -- a tool of a prolonged attempted genocide.

[Larry Brown #43]

"...one of the most melancholy stories in the whole world of insolence, rapine, brutal, endless slaughter and persecution on the part of the English master...There is no crime ever invented by eastern or western barbarians, no torture or Roman persecution or Spanish Inquisition, no tyranny of Nero or Alva but can be matched in the history of England in Ireland."

--William Makepeace Thackeray

[zoony]

Beat me to it. It's the Croats who are Catholic.

Yes, and I am one of them

To the OP, I would also say Alabama and South Carolina, or anywhere Baptists roam free.

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[Corcaigh]

The disease resulted from "famine," however "famine" in this case is truly a misnomer. There was no shortage of food in Ireland, as British landowners continued to eat whatever they wanted to eat before, during, and after the potato famine.

The "potato famine" was in the nineteenth century, two hundred years after Cromwell. I was responding to your claim that Cromwell killed 30% of the Irish population.

Cromwell and the Penal Laws were about destroying the Catholic artisocracy who were actively rebelling against Crmowell and English rule. They were not about genocide. This is manifest in that the Irish population, at least in what is now the Republic of Ireland, remains 95% Catholic.

And let's be clear here - I am first generation Irish. I sat in Irish history classes for 14 years of my youth. You don't need to cut and paste a few paragraphs from a Georgia Tech student website to 'educate me' on Irish history. What the English perpetrated in Ireland over centuries is among the most shameful acts in European history. But calling it genocide diminishes in my opinion the acts of real genocide that have occured elsewhere.

[twa]

Yes, and I am one of them

To the OP, I would also say Alabama and South Carolina, or anywhere Baptists roam free.

....

Paybacks a ***** ain't it?

[Corcaigh]

Paybacks a ***** ain't it?

When does official hunting season start, or is it year round?

[Larry Brown #43]

What the English perpetrated in Ireland over centuries is among the most shameful acts in European history. But calling it genocide diminishes in my opinion the acts of real genocide that have occured elsewhere.

Fair enough. My mother was born and raised in Galway, and nearly all of my family (save for my immediate family) live in Ireland.

And I wasn't trying to 'educate' you so much as I was trying to help the original poster. The first sentence I've quoted above leaves me comfortable with your position. From your earlier posts I thought you were suggesting that the British hadn't committed ant atrocity at all.

[JMS]

What happened in Ireland wasn't genocide.

Yes it was. Ireland continued to export food throughout the potato famine and the death of 20-25% of the population. The british pursued famine as a way to pacify the population, even turn them protestant.

The Great Famine wasn't caused by a lack of food, it was caused by a lack of food left to the Catholics.

English perpetrated in Ireland over centuries is among the most shameful acts in European history. But calling it genocide diminishes in my opinion the acts of real genocide that have occured elsewhere.

In seven years 1845-1852 they whiped out 20-25% of the entire population of Ireland. I think that compares percentage wise with just about any genocide in the history of the world.

[JMS]

http://www.savage-productions.com/beheading-serbs.html

Warning, the link below is too intense for little girls, puppy dogs, cross dressers and chommie

http://www.kosovo.net/skenderbeyss.html

Serbs aren't Catholics. They're eastern Orthodox like Russia their traditional ally.

The Croats are Catholics,

the Bosinians and Albanians are Muslims.

[Corcaigh]

In seven years 1845-1852 they whiped out 20-25% of the entire population of Ireland. I think that compares percentage wise with just about any genocide in the history of the world.

The Irish landowners participated in this. Landowners who were the same religion and ethnicity as the poor. It was displacement/abandonment of the poor by the rich. It wasn't genocide. It was class war.

[JMS]

Elizabethan England was a significant one.

Elizabeth didn't pursue anti catholic policies. She is credited with taking a step back from the devisive policies of the previous rulers.

Henry VIII on the Protestant side.

Mary Tuder on the Catholic side.

Elizabeth responded to a papal letter which was tied to an attempt to have her killed. But even then she just killed the conspirators.

[JMS]

The Irish landowners participated in this. Landowners who were the same religion and ethnicity as the poor. It was displacement/abandonment of the poor by the rich. It wasn't genocide. It was class war.

:doh:

Irish catholics were prohibited from owning land in Ireland. Just like they couldn't legally be taught a trade, live in an incorporated town, live within five miles of an incorporated town, vote, or work a professional career.

The land worked by the pessants, yet owned by the protestants had to be rented. When the Irish choose to feed themselves rather than pay the rent they were evicted. Half a million people were evicted from their land during the great famine for eating rather than paying their rent.

It's not true that the Great Famine was cased by the blight which ran through the potato crop. It was a strategy by the British to economically cripple and pacify Ireland. That's why it's not called the potato famine in Ireland.

The Great Famine, was a strategy. A strategy which worked, for a while. Except for the fact that the Irish have a temper which burns through centuries. The Great Famine became the central devide in Irish history. It became the rallying cry for every subsequent Irish rebellion and insurection.

[Corcaigh]

:doh:

Irish catholics were prohibited from owning land in Ireland.

That's not true.

[JMS]

Does The Inquisition count?

Inquisition was one of the genocides the Catholics prosecuted against other religions. ( Jews and Moslems in Spain )....

I'm not sure if it was genocide. Not that many folks were actually killed. People could get out of the tortue by converting to Christianity. Most did rather than have hot iron placed on their nipples.

Not that Catholics didn't commit Genocide.

[Corcaigh]

Except for the fact that the Irish have a temper which burns through centuries. The Great Famine became the central devide in Irish history. It became the rallying cry for every subsequent Irish rebellion and insurection.

The Irish temper? :laugh:

Loss of civil rights over centuries would not be a factor, just a bad temper. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the non-Catholics who played a leading role in the struggles against the English too.

The rebellions which took place before the famine were based on what, not the Irish temper but their love of drink?

Get a clue.

[JMS]

That's not true.

Gee... Got a link to back that up?

I do.. several of them....

See Causes of the Famine, - Laws that restricted the rights of the Irish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Irish_Famine

Irish Catholic citizens were prohibited by law from owning land, from leasing land, from voting, from holding political office, from living in a corporate town or within five miles of a corporate town, from obtaining education, from entering a profession, and from doing many other things that are necessary in order to succeed and prosper in life. [12]

See the Penal Laws..

• An Act for the Relief of the Protestant Purchasers of the forfeited Estates in Ireland (1702)
  
• An Act to prevent Popish Priests from coming into this Kingdom (1703)
  An Act to prevent the further Growth of Popery (1703)
  

These laws and others contained provisions that had the following effects:

• Catholics were prohibited from voting.
  
• Catholics were not permitted to purchase land or to lease land for more than 31 years.
  
• It was illegal to teach the Catholic religion, to children as well as adults.
  
• It was illegal to send children abroad to study in France.
  
• It became illegal for Catholic clergy to remain in Ireland or to enter Ireland from abroad.
  
• It was illegal to harbour or otherwise assist Catholic clergy.
  
• Any lands which a Catholic managed to own were to be divided equally among all of his sons at the time of his death.
  
• Pitted children who professed conversion to the Church of Ireland against their parents.
  

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080218030142AA40Pxk

Catholics and Presbyterians alike were required to tithe to the Anglican Church of Ireland, but were officially barred from government employment and military commissions. Catholics alone were barred from elective office, from entering the legal profession, from bearing arms, and from owning a horse worth more than five pounds. Upon the death of a Catholic landlord, his property by law went to his sons in equal shares, unless one of them converted to Anglicanism, in which case the Anglican son received the entire property, along with the right to immediately wrest management from his parents. Catholics were prohibited from purchasing realty, except leases of less than 31 years. (Between 1701 and 1778 Catholic ownership of land further declined from 14% to 5%). Catholics were barred from educating their children (except in schools proselytizing for the Anglican religion). Catholic bishops were banned from Ireland (under penalty of death by hanging, disemboweling and quartering). The last of the Penal Laws, enacted in 1727, denied Catholics the right to vote.

http://members.tripod.com/~JerryDesmond/index-2.html

[JMS]

The Irish temper? :laugh:

Loss of civil rights over centuries would not be a factor, just a bad temper. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the non-Catholics who played a leading role in the struggles against the English too.

The rebellions which took place before the famine were based on what, not the Irish temper but their love of drink?

Get a clue.

I think I have a clue. I think I also have the links to back up my statements.

I think you are just wagging your tongue at something you know nothing about.

?, All Irish history is devided by pre or post great famine... And of coarse, I have a link like always so you don't have to take my word for it.

( See the end of the introduction..)

For both the native Irish and those in the resulting diaspora, the famine entered folk memory and became a rallying point for various nationalist movements. Virtually all modern historians of Ireland regard it as a dividing line in the Irish historical narrative, referring to the preceding period of Irish history as "pre-Famine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Irish_Famine

[Corcaigh]

The Great Famine, was a strategy.

This is garbage. The British Prime Minister personally arranged for food imports during the famine. Public works projects were initiated to find employment for the unemployed laborers.

This was totally inadequate and led to the deaths and displacement of many, but to claim it was a deliberate strategy and part of some grand plan of genocide is bull****.

It is lies like this that the IRA spread here for years and led to gullible and dumb Americans funding their murderous campaigns against their fellow Irishmen for decades.

[Corcaigh]

Gee... Got a link to back that up?

I do.. several of them....

Emancipation and repeal of the Penal Laws occured before the famine. Even prior to this Catholics owned land, in spite of what Wikipedia may tell you.

[JMS]

This is garbage. The British Prime Minister personally arranged for food imports during the famine. Public works projects were initiated to find employment for the unemployed laborers.

Yeah the fact that you haven't been right in one of your critisms yet, emboldens you to broaden your critism beyond any specifics where your knowledge has already been found insufficient.

This was totally inadequate and led to the deaths and displacement of many, but to claim it was a deliberate strategy and part of some grand plan of genocide is bull****.

:doh: , The British jobs couldn't be given to any Irishman who owned more than a half acre of land. It was a further strategum to separate the Irish from the 5% of the land which they had managed to hang on to.

See government Response..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Irish_Famine#Government_response

In addition the "Gregory clause" of the Poor Law prohibited anyone who held at least a quarter of an acre from receiving relief.

It is lies like this that the IRA spread here for years and led to gullible and dumb Americans funding their murderous campaigns against their fellow Irishmen for decades.

Now you are just graspying for a life persurver. You are sinking so fast you are just throwing out any wild unrelated statements hopeing they stick to the wall.

We can discuss the IRA and gulllible / dumb Americans funding in a different thread if you like. One where we would likely agree more than disagree.

But as for the Great Famine. It is one of the UK's worst moments in history..

[JMS]

Emancipation and repeal of the Penal Laws occured before the famine. Even prior to this Catholics owned land, in spite of what Wikipedia may tell you.

Why make these wild accusations without even researching them yourself. I mean you're just floating these balls right over the plate for me to hit out of the park...

The Penal laws were a series of laws which were passed from 1695-1759.

By 1778 Irish Catholics would own a meager 5% of Irish land. Furthermore, the Catholic educational system was outlawed and priests who did not conform to the laws could be branded on the face or castrated. As a result, much of Catholic church services and education and record keeping was forced underground, to operate only under extreme secrecy. The religion and culture were kept alive by secret open-air masses and illegal outdoor schools, known as 'hedge' schools. All Irish culture, music and education was banned. By the time of the census of 1841 the Irish were impoverished, landless and leaderless by the eve of the famine.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlker/penallaws.html

See Suggestions of Genocide.

In 1996 Francis A. Boyle, a law professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, wrote a report commissioned by the New York-based Irish Famine/Genocide Committee which concluded that "Clearly, during the years 1845 to 1850, the British government pursued a policy of mass starvation in Ireland with intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnic and racial group commonly known as the Irish People.... Therefore, during the years 1845 to 1850 the British government knowingly pursued a policy of mass starvation in Ireland that constituted acts of genocide against the Irish people within the meaning of Article II © of the 1948 [Hague] Genocide Convention."[105] On the strength of Boyle's report, the U.S. state of New Jersey included the famine in the "Holocaust and Genocide Curriculum" at the secondary tier.[106]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Irish_Famine#Suggestions_of_genocide

[Corcaigh]

JMS,

We've seen stuff like this from you in other threads. You are arguing for the sake of argument. That you can find dubious American sources on the net claiming genocide means nothing. I studied Irish history for 14 years. I lived in the country for twenty-one years. You claimed that it was illegal for Irish Catholics to own land at the time of the famine. This was not true and I specifically mentioned Emancipation and the repeal of the Penal Laws to demonstrate this. Now you are posting links saying they only owned 5%. So clearly your first claim was incorrect as I stated.

As I've stated clearly already in this thread, the English behavior in Ireland is shameful but to claim it as genocide is contrary to the facts. A number of programs were put in place for famine relief (again specifics I provided), but as I've stated before they were wholly inadequate. If the goal is genocide these programs would not have been instituted. What happened in Ireland was the destruction of the poor by the rich.

[Corcaigh]

But as for the Great Famine. It is one of the UK's worst moments in history..

No-one is disagreeing with this. Tony Blair felt it appropriate to issue an apology.

But Irish people don't consider what happened genocide. I'd never even heard of 'potato famine as genocide' until I moved here. :doh: You might think in twenty years of living in Ireland it might have been mentioned. :laugh:

Those who do claim genocide are usually Irish-Americans with an anti-British agenda. Hence my comments re funding the IRA.

It is interesting that the claim for genocide you referenced comes from an American law professor, not an Irish historian. Claims of genocide seem to be politically motivated and do not have a basis in historical fact.