Talent level...

[bedlamVR]

Just as a break from who is going to be the next head coach or the wildest rumor based of what someone said or didn't say ... I was wondering where we are Vs other talent in the league .

Because the probowl is a pretty meaningless popularity contest I was wondering if there is anyone on the roster you would either rate as top 5 or 10 in the league .

I think we probably have 1 guy I would defiantly put in that bracket

Chris Samuels

There are a couple of guys I would put up there for debate

Clinton Portis

Chris Cooley

Ethan Albright ( hey LS is a position)

Top 10 I would put:

Randy Thomas

Rock Cartwight (KR)

I would argue they should be considered in the top 10

Santana Moss

Casey Rahbach

Jon Jansen

London Fletcher

I think there are guys who are on the brink of being top end tallent but not there yet

Andre Carter

LaRon Landry

Carlos Rogers

Rocky McIntosh

Shaun Suisham ( he is not great but he is getting there)

Other guys

Okay I still love people like Marcus Washington, Shawn Springs, Fred Smoot but their talents are on a downward spiral ( maybe the same can be said of Jansen but I just don't want to admit it) . Montgomery, Doughty ARE and probably some other guys are good players for the team but are average at best.

What do other people think ?

[Burgold]

I would say right now, we still have much better potential than production. The thing that held us way down this year was injury that and fear. We played much of this year afraid of making a big mistake or giving up the big mistake. That's why we played both Sean Taylor and Laron Landry 30 yards off the ball and compiled it by asking our corners to also line up ten yards off their receiver.

Right now, I'd say we stack up slightly better than average. If everyone were healthy and playing their best I'd say, talentwise we'd be in the top third of teams, but it hasn't been the case and probably won't be the case.

We have an old o-line. You can't expect them to play for sixteen and you can't expect them not to get slowed down. Can we trust Jansen, Kendall, Thomas, or Wade to be productive for fourteen games?

Receivers: Moss is great, but succumbed to injuries and had uneven concentration this year. He was either too hurt or couldn't focus. Way too many dropped balls. Randle El really showed a lot this year. Made a number of tough catches and big plays, but also was hurt. I think becoming Campbell's favorite, plus being the PR took a toll on him. Caldwell/McCardell/Lloyd/Thrash somewhere in there is a nice number three, but again three of the four of em wound up hurt and McCardell and Thrash are getting pretty up there in years. Lloyd just hasn't panned out at all.

Running backs: What happened to getting Ladell more touches? Portis excelled as a blocker and showed better hands this year. As a runner, he wasn't productive enough and by that I mean that he rarely broke tackles and he didn't seem to have enough speed and shiftiness when he was in the open to make anyone miss. Especially through the first half of the season. Chalk this up to the O-line mostly, but Portis was not a superstar this year, except as a blocker. And we were the very worst 3rd and 1 team in the NFL.

Quarterback: Campbell started the year impressively. He kept us in games without a strong run game and with little pass protection help. He also made some big mistakes in awareness and turnovers. He improved his percentage in accuracy. I think he makes another jump from a competitive qb to a good one. If he gets more help in terms of protection and we don't have a plague of injuries and dropsies at receiver, I think that Campbell will make us happy. Collins. What can you say? Wow. Brunell had perhaps his best year at quarterback for the Redskins

[Thirtyfive2seven]

And we were the very worst 3rd and 1 team in the NFL.

I think that this says it all. The Oline doesn't get ANY push moving forward on 3rd and 1, or short yardage situations. Something is wrong there. Injuries, sure. But on run blocking, when the Oline KNOWNS the snap count, they should get a jump on the defensive player and at least get SOME push.

Most of the time on goaline situations I saw our oline go BACKWARDS :doh:

[Wyvern]

Top five or top ten in the league? I don't think any of our players are in the top 10 in the league. (Not even sure which positions would qualify.) A top ten list would have include Sean Taylor -- but I assume current players.

Maybe a small number of Redskins might qualify for the top five or top ten ... at their position.

1. R. Thomas is probably one of the top 5 RGs but couldn't show it this year.

2. C. Samuels is probably one of the top 5 LTs

3. C/ Cooley is probably in the top 10 TEs.

4. L. Fletcher is probably one of the top 10 MLBs in a 4-3 defense

5. M. Washington is on the bubble as one of the top 10 Strong Side LBs, but slid badly this year.

6. C. Portis ... might have been in the top 10 RBs, but didn't show it this year. I think he's slid to around #12 or so.

That is all. I don't think Moss is cracks the top 10 at the #1 WR. Santana's now more like in the range of #12-14 ranked with with players like Donald Driver, Jerry Porter, Lee Evans, etc.

[McD5]

I think that this says it all. The Oline doesn't get ANY push moving forward on 3rd and 1, or short yardage situations. Something is wrong there. Injuries, sure. But on run blocking, when the Oline KNOWNS the snap count, they should get a jump on the defensive player and at least get SOME push.

Most of the time on goaline situations I saw our oline go BACKWARDS :doh:

But if Portis got those opportunities to carry on 3rd and 1....we would score every single time!

Oh wait....

[SkinsMaster88]

6. Portis ... might have been in the top 10 RBs, but didn't show it this year. I think he's slid to around #12 or so.

Here we go again...I'm wondering who you people think is better than Portis in the NFL. Now, granted he no longer is in the elite class (I feel more due to the injuries by himself and the O-line), but he's still clearly a top 10 back in the league, and closer to top 5.

In 2007, Portis was 6th in rushing yards, 4th in TDs, and 3rd in yards from scrimmage. He's not LT or Adrian Peterson, but still. And all this behind an offensive line that was completely replaced on the right side.

[Wyvern]

Ahead of the 2007 version of Portis?

For consideration , but in no particular order-- Larry Johnson, Ladainian Tomlinson, Steven Jackson, Frank Gore, Willie Parker, Marion Barber, Adrian Peterson, Laurence Maroney, Joseph Addai, Brian Westbrook, Rudi Johnson.

...with either Deuce McAlister, Marshawn Lynch, or Fred Taylor giving him competition for the 10th spot.

[SkinsMaster88]

Ahead of the 2007 version of Portis?

For consideration , but in no particular order-- Larry Johnson, Ladainian Tomlinson, Steven Jackson, Frank Gore, Willie Parker, Marion Barber, Adrian Peterson, Laurence Maroney, Joseph Addai, Brian Westbrook, Rudi Johnson.

...with either Deuce McAlister, Marshawn Lynch, or Fred Taylor giving him competition for the 10th spot.

Fair enough. However, if you are simply going by this year...

Larry Johnson played terrible and then injured (3.5 ypc and only 4 total TDs in 8 games).

Steven Jackson also dealt with injuries, but yardage production was similar to Portis and didn't make that many plays either. Plus, Steven Jackson has only had one season over 1100 yds in 4 years (2 100-yd games, 6 TDs in 12 games)

Gore was slightly worse than Portis, playing in 15 games. He'd need a 160-yd, 6 TD game to match Portis' stats this season...

Rudi Johnson was horrible this year (2.9 ypc, 4 TDs in 9 GS, 11 total games), plus Rudi Johnson has never topped 1500 yds in his 7 year career.

Maroney came on strong towards the end. But you have to look at that offense....everyone was playing the pass and Tom Brady. Maroney still had under 1,000 yds combined rush/rec in 13 games and 6 TDs.

Willie Parker was leading the NFL in rushing earlier on, but his numbers weren't that much different from Portis if you look overall. Portis had 235 more rec yards, 9 more TDs, while Parker had 54 more rushing yds in one less game.

Marion Barber has been discussed during the Pro Bowl selection, since Barber never actually started a game for the Cowboys and didn't have a 1000-yd season, but Barber did make many plays for the Cowboys, so he did have a better season. However, I'd take Portis overall because of his past production. Barber was never really a focal point of the offense because of Romo sits to pee/TO/Witten like Portis has been.

[kovachs]

What do other people think ?

I think that in the age of the salary cap it's not just how good the players are but how much you are paying them that's important.

Sure, Portis is better than Ryan Grant. But one of them has a $50 million dolllar contract and takes up huge cap space and the other makes 400k a year.

[DirtySkin21]

exactly, i agree. (skinsmaster88)

[DirtySkin21]

I think that in the age of the salary cap it's not just how good the players are but how much you are paying them that's important.

Sure, Portis is better than Ryan Grant. But one of them has a $50 million dolllar contract and takes up huge cap space and the other makes 400k a year.

We dont have a HOF QB running our Offense either now do we?

now how much cap room does favre use?

:doh:

THANKS!!!!

[Gregpeck99]

Until the Skins have a top 5 QB ... thay aint goin nowhere.

[kovachs]

We dont have a HOF QB running our Offense either now do we?

now how much cap room does favre use?

:doh:

THANKS!!!!

Exactly the point. Some positions are worth spending that huge amount of money on others (RB) are not. Look at the Giants running backs. You could probably pay them with the spare change you would find in Portis' couch.

[Thoth]

60th percentile. . .as our record indicates.

[Wyvern]

This was a tough call to make on Portis. To some degree it comes down to what you see when you're watching games and what you prefer in a running back. Do you want a true power-back, breaking tackles and getting the all-important yardage for the first down? Or do you want an elusive slashing style -- with the awesome breakaway speed?

Also, it'is hard to compare running backs, because their performance and stats are impacted by so many variables -- the quality of the passing game, the ability of the line to open holes for the running game, the involvement of the RB in the gameplan, the quality and schemes of the defenses the running is going against.

Now Portis was hampered by a poor passing game and poor offensive line support. However, he was heavily involved in the offense and certainly got a lot of touches -- which probably helped his stats. More than his stats however, I liked the fact that Portis has developed a better sense of catching the outlet pass -- that was a definite plus for him.

For this thread's analysis, I tended to focus on individual performance, how the RB consistently performed. (If the RB were injured this year, I'd try to reflect a little about what the RB had shown the previous year.) However, I didn't concentrate on stats, or the entire body of the RBs work -- more about what had been done lately.

For Portis, like other RBs, the picture is mixed. While Portis' blocking was exceptional, CP wasn't very good at breaking tackles. While he was having to make tough runs most of the time, he didn't have many breakaway runs when the rare opportunity presented itself.. He didn't give that sense of "running down-hill", rather he seemed to run out of balance and always seemed to be getting taken down easily by the first defender's contact. What bothered me is that he rarely seemed to fall forward for that extra yard. As an intangible, I didn't get the same sense of intensity Portis, I'd come to expect. Only in the last couple of games with Collins at QB, did Portis seem to have more of spark. (I'm starting to wonder if this was a hold-over mind-set of CP's attitude toward participating in training camp.)

Please don't misunderstand my post -- I still see Portis as a very good running back. But when watching other teams play on TV, I liked what I saw in some of the other running backs a little more. I saw some backs running with more power, and some backs running with more speed. True, Portis is sort of a blend of speed and power and he's learned to be saavy veteran RB. But it just didn't seem to work that well for him this year. Moreover, it got disappointing watching those many times when CP would come up a yard short when we really needed it for a crucial first down.

[monarch34]

I agree with your top 4:

Chris Samuels

Clinton Portis

Chris Cooley

Ethan Albright

Hard to say after that. I think some of our guys are rising fast on the list, but am not sure that they are top 5 yet at their positions. At times, Santana has played top 5, but probably not in top 5 overall. If Randy had not injured himself, I would have put him there. I think Rock may well be top 5, but my knowledge of other KR is not as deep so I'm not sure. I think Springs played top 5 for much of the year, but suspect he may be just outside of top-5 based on some of the names that are in there.

[GrimReefa]

Personnel-wise, the Redskins seem to be in good shape, until you factor in the age of the lines, offensive in particular. Both lines need to be rebuilt through the draft, but especially the offensive line. If we're going to be competing for a Super Bowl in 2009 or 2010, the guys on the o-line now can not be a part of that, and yes that includes Samuels, Thomas, and Jansen.