The Price we Pay

[redwoody86]

Oh sure because "status" positions in high school put you in a class above those jackass working stiffs.

Gimme a ****ing break. It might take a little good parenting (yeah, I know, that part is kinda iffy) but it can certainly happen. And there are certainly enough of them. There were when I was growing up.

I'm just saying, the majority of the jobs that illegal immigrants hold are going to either be unsuitable for highschoolers (e.g. Construction) or undesirable (e.g. Cleaning). Certainly, some kids will take these jobs. I got paid $6/hr at Marshalls in hs because of a ****ty job market. Sure, some extra openings would have been nice, but not like this.

Plus, I did a quick run on the numbers (that I could find). Around 18 million highschoolers, with a 15% unemployment rate among that age group, will cover 2.7 million of those jobs. Care to look in other age cohorts to find the rest? Maybe our elderly should be more active??

[twa]

Plus, I did a quick run on the numbers (that I could find). Around 18 million highschoolers, with a 15% unemployment rate among that age group, will cover 2.7 million of those jobs. Care to look in other age cohorts to find the rest? Maybe our elderly should be more active??

One note on the numbers,it is likely much more than 10 million illegals.

There is also about a third of that number that make a living serving the illegal community pretty much exclusively...no loss to the mainstream business worker pool.

You could also deduct the children and stay at home moms from the calculation

Pretty soon you are dealing with numbers that could easily be addressed by expanding work visas and legal immigration. :2cents:

The real problem with trying to figure solutions is the real numbers are unknown. :doh:

[redwoody86]

One note on the numbers,it is likely much more than 10 million illegals.

Yeah I know, I was just going with where G.A.C.O.L.B. started.

There is also about a third of that number that make a living serving the illegal community pretty much exclusively...no loss to the mainstream business worker pool.

I've actually never heard this. Could you expand? You mean drug trade? Movement? Selling?

You could also deduct the children and stay at home moms from the calculation

Yes you could

Pretty soon you are dealing with numbers that could easily be addressed by expanding work visas and legal immigration. :2cents:

Well I'm all for that. Although I'm not sure that most of America sees money as the problem. I think that most people see this as more of a drain on culture than a drain on the economy. Economy isn't that bad folks- just the best in the world, and the best in history.

And I don't think we're going to see immigration quotas raised 100000(ish)%

Works visas, are a start.

The real problem with trying to figure solutions is the real numbers are unknown. :doh:

and almost impossible to even accurately estimate even with years to study.

[twa]

What I was referring to as a separate subgroup are the service and support jobs(mostly off the books) that are very much a part of life down here.

They provide food ,clothing,maintenance for home and auto,entertainment,ect almost exclusively for other illegals(there is also the illegal activities such as drugs,smuggling ,providing papers ect., but I try not to know too much on that side )

They are a very insular group,that tends to have little contact with normal citizens and make their living almost exclusively off the illegal community.

It is pretty interesting to see how it has grown here as the numbers swelled.

[USS Redskins]

I was waiting for this type of reply. Actually Wolf Blitzer reported it. Now please include an intelligent response. I love how we disregard things based off alleged rumors and allegations without listening to what the person says or doing any credible research on our own

Dude, you totally OWNED Midnight......... that was great.

[Fergasun]

I'm interested in what the Virginia Study will say as well. I would be surprised if they showed illegals as a net benefit to the economy... but as it was pointed out illegals probably take up a greater percentage of the poor. Rich illegals can come in and become legalized by opening up a business and getting a business visa (perhaps its more of 50-50 proposition). For some reason I fear it might be framed to say "illegals are great for the economy, we'd be able to collect a ton in taxes if we made them legal ".

I wouldn't have a problem if we weren't so nice with who gets federal/state/county benefits... and if we were mean enough to deny illegals anything but emergency services... and if we sent the bill to Mexico... and if we followed the laws.

I've argued we should have a legal guest worker phase in. Reward anyone in Mexico who hasn't broken the law... ensure the workforce is 25% legal by 2008, 50% legal by 2010, and 100% legal by 2012. The key is having 100% sustainment.

I wish the major Republican candidates didn't give off the aura of globalism that the two Bush president's have given us in the past 20 years, but I'm pretty well convinced an huge unstated Republican plank is to undercut national sovereignty (sp?) in order to benefit large corporations, as well as prop up the corrupt Mexican government.

If we really wanted to spread democracy I wouldn't mind regime change and occupation of our southern neighbor. I find the domestic threat of drug gangs and cartels right next door way more menacing than some religious fanatics who will most likely be dealt with by Europe within 10 years. In fact it seems like those drug gangs and cartels have creeped a bit into our country.

So yeah, my plan is 1) Repeal anchor baby laws, 2) Bill Mexico for whatever the cost of illegals is, 3) build a wall and enforce immigration laws, 4) phase in a bigger guest worker program, 5) destroy Mexican drug gangs and cartels. If steps 1-5 fail sealing off the border and invading Mexico seems like a better option than World War III with Iran.

Most illegals live a pretty ****ty life anyways...

[edgun88]

Yea so we should turn illegal immigrants away that have internal bleeding or appendicitis. Right, just let all the sick illegal immagrants die horrible deaths with no medical help. And while we are at it, why don't we kick all illegal immigrants out of free public schools so that they will further pollute America.......

:stfu:

This **** has been going on for years, why is everyone making such a big ****ing deal about it now?

[redwoody86]

2) Bill Mexico for whatever the cost of illegals is

On that topic, Bill O' Reilly had former mexican president Fox on his show a few weeks ago. He got into one of his moods where he gets upset and keeps cutting the guy off to say the same thing again and again which he thinks is basic common sense and since he thinks it is right, everyone must think it is right or they are 1)crazy or 2)far left or 3) a nut job or 4)drinking the koolaid.

Regardless, the thing was, he got upset at (ex-President) Fox for FAILING TO KEEP HIS CITIZENS IN HIS COUNTRY.

We don't have the ability to keep them out, and we are the richest, most powerful country in the world. And he wants it to be the resposibility of mexico to stop illegal immigration? Quick lesson, Bill. For them it would be legal emigration. Fox's answer was brilliantly simple: "Bill, we're not Cuba. We don't lock our citizens in".

[SkinsHokieFan]

One day I am going to disprove the myth that illegals work for dirt cheap

They don't. They work cheaper then Joe Schmo US citizen, but it isn't pennies that they get paid

[Larry]

(Just wondering how much it would stir up this thread, if I were to assert that, when you consider "burden on the taxpayer", the average illegal immigrant probably isn't a whole lot different from the average Wal-Mart employee. That everything you can say about one, good and bad, probably applies almost equally to the other.)

[Larry]

One day I am going to disprove the myth that illegals work for dirt cheap

They don't. They work cheaper then Joe Schmo US citizen, but it isn't pennies that they get paid

I would bet that there's at least one ES poster (a recent moderator, I believe) who can likely tell you about working conditions and pay for illegals in at least one segment of our economy. Not necessarily claiming that he's an evil exploiter of slave labor, but I'd be surprised if he hasn't at least heard some things.

[Dictator]

One day I am going to disprove the myth that illegals work for dirt cheap

They don't. They work cheaper then Joe Schmo US citizen, but it isn't pennies that they get paid

All you have to do is look at the jobs most ofent worked by illegals. Contstruction and Drywall. I'd wager their take home is twice as much as the schmo's working at Wal-Mart.

[Midnight Judges]

I was waiting for this type of reply. Actually Wolf Blitzer reported it. Now please include an intelligent response. I love how we disregard things based off alleged rumors and allegations without listening to what the person says or doing any credible research on our own

uhhh no. This series is on Hannity. That is where you got your numbers and frankly anyone who gets information from them is a mindless drone. It's already been pointed out that your Republican overlords provided you with an all cost/no benefit analysis.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I would bet that there's at least one ES poster (a recent moderator, I believe) who can likely tell you about working conditions and pay for illegals in at least one segment of our economy. Not necessarily claiming that he's an evil exploiter of slave labor, but I'd be surprised if he hasn't at least heard some things.

I could go on about conditions and pay in a critical sector of our economy. In fact I have in threads before. My "research" is based on how many times my foreman have said "I need more money to do this job" and when trying to call them out on their BS and doing my own research I find out, yea they actually do because grunt workers that can do painting, drywall, carpentry, tiles, floors etc, are demanding AND getting anywhere from 13-20 dollars an hour.

Thats not exactly cheap labor

All you have to do is look at the jobs most ofent worked by illegals. Contstruction and Drywall. I'd wager their take home is twice as much as the schmo's working at Wal-Mart.

Easily, and right now there is still plenty of work to be done

[SkinsHokieFan]

In fact, I'll give an example

Right now we are painting a home in DC. I have a crew on the job that has 3 guys working

I am paying the crew 2,000 dollars for the entire job. About 200 of that will go to matierals

So there is 1,800 in labor costs

Now generally they'll work 9 hours a day, of actual work. So per day that is 27 man hours

The job was started yesterday and will be done tomorrow

So 81 man hours, and they are getting paid 1800 in labor

That comes out to 22.22 dollars an hour per each of those guys

Now granted there are some auxilary costs for them, lunch, gas, they have to have their own insurance, so take another 150 off

1650 for 81 man hours. That is still 20.37 an hour, which over the course of the year is 42,370.00 (based on 2080 working hours per year, which if you have worked for a government contractor is what your pay rate is priced at)

So these guys aren't exactly undercutting the American worker

[Dictator]

So these guys aren't exactly undercutting the American worker

And lets not forget, they are doing the job americans don't want to do.

To address someone point earlier about who would take these jobs if there were no illegals...my answer is machinery. No migrants to work the field? There is a machine that will take care of that. No Immigrant workers to work the pick/pack line, a machine can do that job quicker, cheaper, and with less errors.

The machinery costs a lot of money upfront, but will end up saving money in the long run.

[SkinsHokieFan]

And lets not forget, they are doing the job americans don't want to do.

To address someone point earlier about who would take these jobs if there were no illegals...my answer is machinery. No migrants to work the field? There is a machine that will take care of that. No Immigrant workers to work the pick/pack line, a machine can do that job quicker, cheaper, and with less errors.

The machinery costs a lot of money upfront, but will end up saving money in the long run.

But machienes don't build custom houses, they don't hang drywall, they don't install tiles

It may work in one sector, but won't in other sectors

[Larry]

In fact, I'll give an example

Right now we are painting a home in DC. I have a crew on the job that has 3 guys working

I am paying the crew 2,000 dollars for the entire job. About 200 of that will go to matierals

So there is 1,800 in labor costs

Now generally they'll work 9 hours a day, of actual work. So per day that is 27 man hours

The job was started yesterday and will be done tomorrow

So 81 man hours, and they are getting paid 1800 in labor

That comes out to 22.22 dollars an hour per each of those guys

Now granted there are some auxilary costs for them, lunch, gas, they have to have their own insurance, so take another 150 off

1650 for 81 man hours. That is still 20.37 an hour, which over the course of the year is 42,370.00 (based on 2080 working hours per year, which if you have worked for a government contractor is what your pay rate is priced at)

So these guys aren't exactly undercutting the American worker

This afternoon, I'm going to be installing a computer for a customer. He's going to be paying $56 an hour.

I'm not making $56 an hour.

Not saying those painters are making $3 an hour. Just pointing out that the price a business charges for a job often isn't even close to what the worker is making.

------

And yes, they are undercutting the American worker. You know how you can tell? Americans aren't doing it.

It's certainly debatable whether illegals are hurting or helping the economy. But it's absolutely guaranteed that by increasing the supply of labor, they're reducing the price of labor.

[Dictator]

But machienes don't build custom houses, they don't hang drywall, they don't install tiles

It may work in one sector, but won't in other sectors

I agree. I cannot work in all sectors. But where it can work it will provide a solution to those who think there will be millions of jobs available with nobody to fill them.

[SkinsHokieFan]

This afternoon, I'm going to be installing a computer for a customer. He's going to be paying $56 an hour.

I'm not making $56 an hour.

Not saying those painters are making $3 an hour. Just pointing out that the price a business charges for a job often isn't even close to what the worker is making.

------

And yes, they are undercutting the American worker. You know how you can tell? Americans aren't doing it.

It's certainly debatable whether illegals are hurting or helping the economy. But it's absolutely guaranteed that by increasing the supply of labor, they're reducing the price of labor.

Larry, I am certainly NOT charging only 22 dollars an hour. The contract itself is certainly not for only 2,000

Its a little more then double that to be honest, so the customer is getting charged close to 44 dollars an hour, and looking at the amount of work we are doing, they are getting a hell of a deal (this was a job I had originally priced at about 5,000, but he was a nice 80 year old man that told me some good stories so I gave him a break)

Its just like with my "real job" that I work for a government contractor. My 22.91 per hour rate is NOT what our customers get charged. I believe my burdened rate comes out to something in the 70 dollar range per hour (and you can see how much I post on ES so its probably more)

So in my example, the painters ARE making about 22 dollars an hour. And generally they won't do the work unless it averages out to that amount. To be honest, I worked with Joe Bob American guy my first year (2002) and he was asking for 575 a day for a crew of 2, including matierals. Now the reason I stopped using him was because he quite frankly sucked and jobs took too long

So in essence the undercutting in major metropolitan areas is not happening, unless the 100s of workers I have spoken to over the past 5 years are all blowing smoke up my ass

[Fergasun]

Yea so we should turn illegal immigrants away that have internal bleeding or appendicitis. Right, just let all the sick illegal immagrants die horrible deaths with no medical help. And while we are at it, why don't we kick all illegal immigrants out of free public schools so that they will further pollute America.......

I wouldn't have a problem if our country kept track and sent a bill to Mexico for the cost of providing illegals with NON-EMERGENCY health care, and yes even providing illegals with FREE PUBLIC SCHOOLING. My main point is out government is BS'ing when they claim they are doing something about this issue. 2004, and 2006 solutions were presented that the American citizen rejected. The President/Congress didn't bother to change or vary the plan that much, and they don't do things that could help mitigate the problem... ie border fence. I'm not a big fan of the 3000 mile fence, but I think a fence is a good deterrent if it means you can funnel the illegals to somewhere else (this has happened with the San Diego fence). Just because people parrot the whole "a fence doesn't do anything or solve the problem", doesn't make it correct.

A fence helps, so does interior enforcement, so does deporting illegal aliens for minor criminal offenses, allowing local police to work for/with ICE. At the very least you can keep track of people who have come back into the country multiple times and deny them legalization if they ever applied. I'm for a guest worker program, I just don't agree that those who have ignored our laws should be eligible.

[#98QBKiller]

So yeah, my plan is 1) Repeal anchor baby laws, 2) Bill Mexico for whatever the cost of illegals is, 3) build a wall and enforce immigration laws, 4) phase in a bigger guest worker program, 5) destroy Mexican drug gangs and cartels. If steps 1-5 fail sealing off the border and invading Mexico seems like a better option than World War III with Iran.

Are these the laws that let illegals stay in the states when they pop-out kids?

And lets not forget, they are doing the job americans don't want to do.

The gheyest excuse in the book. I'm sure the 20-somethings working as clerks in the gas stations and stocking grocery store shelves would be willing to learn a trade to double their hourly earnings.

I'm sure some of the jobs people won't want to do, like emptying trash and vacuuming hotel rooms but those jobs will get filled.

[Larry]

Are these the laws that let illegals stay in the states when they pop-out kids?

Actually, there are several myths in the "anchor baby laws" sound bite.

1) The Constitution (not a law) says that anybody who's born in the US is a citizen.

2) As I understand it, on those rare occasions when the US decides to actually deport an illegal, if the illegal says "but my baby is a citizen", the response is "And he's perfectly free to return to the US. Without his family. When he's 18."

[edgun88]

I wouldn't have a problem if our country kept track and sent a bill to Mexico for the cost of providing illegals with NON-EMERGENCY health care

Thats another problem with Americans....we think that every hispanic person is a Mexican. It's sad.

[#98QBKiller]

Actually, there are several myths in the "anchor baby laws" sound bite.

1) The Constitution (not a law) says that anybody who's born in the US is a citizen.

2) As I understand it, on those rare occasions when the US decides to actually deport an illegal, if the illegal says "but my baby is a citizen", the response is "And he's perfectly free to return to the US. Without his family. When he's 18."

So are you saying that coming to the U.S. illegally and having kids here is not a surefire way to not be deported?