I need a rules clarification

[artmonkforHOF]

On the fumbel return, JC got blocked in the back twice by GB defenders. The first was an incidnetal 1 handed almost pat to the back while the second was a 2 handed shove to the back by Al "the human mop head" Harris that casued JC to stumble but not fall.

Now it can be argued that neither "block" had any affect on the play, but I was under the assumption that the block to the back penalty was in the same realm as a facemask penalty in that it doesnt matter if the infraction was incidental or not, but rather that type of play can lead to injury and is always called to make sure players know it is not allowed.

Am I wrong in this thinking?

Now I m not trying to make this into "the refs cost us that game on this play" thread, I think we had enough other mistakes to lose the game, I just thought that block in the back should have been called, especialy when its the QB getting blocked, or maybe my interpretation of the rule is wrong.

[CHUBAKAH]

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/useofhands

Use of Hands, Arms, and Body

1. No player on offense may assist a runner except by blocking for him. There shall be no interlocking interference.

2. A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms but no other player on offense may use hands or arms to obstruct an opponent by grasping with hands, pushing, or encircling any part of his body during a block. Hands (open or closed) can be thrust forward to initially contact an opponent on or outside the opponent’s frame, but the blocker immediately must work to bring his hands on or inside the frame.

Note: Pass blocking: Hand(s) thrust forward that slip outside the body of the defender will be legal if blocker immediately worked to bring them back inside. Hand(s) or arm(s) that encircle a defender—i.e., hook an opponent—are to be considered illegal and officials are to call a foul for holding.

Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.

3. Hands cannot be thrust forward above the frame to contact an opponent on the neck, face or head.

Note: The frame is defined as the part of the opponent’s body below the neck that is presented to the blocker.

4. A defensive player may not tackle or hold an opponent other than a runner. Otherwise, he may use his hands, arms, or body only:

(a) To defend or protect himself against an obstructing opponent.

Exception: An eligible receiver is considered to be an obstructing opponent ONLY to a point five yards beyond the line of scrimmage unless the player who receives the snap clearly demonstrates no further intention to pass the ball. Within this five-yard zone, a defensive player may chuck an eligible player in front of him. A defensive player is allowed to maintain continuous and unbroken contact within the five-yard zone until a point when the receiver is even with the defender. The defensive player cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an eligible receiver in a manner that restricts movement as the play develops. Beyond this five-yard limitation, a defender may use his hands or arms ONLY to defend or protect himself against impending contact caused by a receiver. In such reaction, the defender may not contact a receiver who attempts to take a path to evade him.

( To push or pull opponent out of the way on line of scrimmage.

© In actual attempt to get at or tackle runner.

(d) To push or pull opponent out of the way in a legal attempt to recover a loose ball.

(e) During a legal block on an opponent who is not an eligible pass receiver.

(f) When legally blocking an eligible pass receiver above the waist.

Exception: Eligible receivers lined up within two yards of the tackle, whether on or immediately behind the line, may be blocked below the waist at or behind the line of scrimmage. NO eligible receiver may be blocked below the waist after he goes beyond the line. (Illegal cut)

Note: Once the quarterback hands off or pitches the ball to a back, or if the quarterback leaves the pocket area, the restrictions (illegal chuck, illegal cut) on the defensive team relative to the offensive receivers will end, provided the ball is not in the air.

5. A defensive player may not contact an opponent above the shoulders with the palm of his hand except to ward him off on the line. This exception is permitted only if it is not a repeated act against the same opponent during any one contact. In all other cases the palms may be used on head, neck, or face only to ward off or push an opponent in legal attempt to get at the ball.

6. Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball or to whom a teammate pretends to give the ball may be tackled provided he is crossing his scrimmage line between the ends of a normal tight offensive line.

7. An offensive player who lines up more than two yards outside his own tackle or a player who, at the snap, is in a backfield position and subsequently takes a position more than two yards outside a tackle may not clip an opponent anywhere nor may he contact an opponent below the waist if the blocker is moving toward the ball and if contact is made within an area five yards on either side of the line. (crackback)

8. A player of either team may block at any time provided it is not pass interference, fair catch interference, or unnecessary roughness.

9. A player may not bat or punch:

(a) A loose ball (in field of play) toward his opponent’s goal line or in any direction in either end zone.

( A ball in player possession.

Note: If there is any question as to whether a defender is stripping or batting a ball in player possession, the official(s) will rule the action as a legal act (stripping the ball).

Exception: A forward or backward pass may be batted, tipped, or deflected in any direction at any time by either the offense or the defense.

Note: A pass in flight that is controlled or caught may only be thrown backward, if it is thrown forward it is considered an illegal bat.

10. No player may deliberately kick any ball except as a punt, dropkick, or placekick.

*********************************************************

If your question is not answered here, click this link for other areas to look.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules

[THUNDERDOME]

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/useofhands

Use of Hands, Arms, and Body

1. No player on offense may assist a runner except by blocking for him. There shall be no interlocking interference.

2. A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms but no other player on offense may use hands or arms to obstruct an opponent by grasping with hands, pushing, or encircling any part of his body during a block. Hands (open or closed) can be thrust forward to initially contact an opponent on or outside the opponent’s frame, but the blocker immediately must work to bring his hands on or inside the frame.

Note: Pass blocking: Hand(s) thrust forward that slip outside the body of the defender will be legal if blocker immediately worked to bring them back inside. Hand(s) or arm(s) that encircle a defender—i.e., hook an opponent—are to be considered illegal and officials are to call a foul for holding.

Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.

3. Hands cannot be thrust forward above the frame to contact an opponent on the neck, face or head.

Note: The frame is defined as the part of the opponent’s body below the neck that is presented to the blocker.

4. A defensive player may not tackle or hold an opponent other than a runner. Otherwise, he may use his hands, arms, or body only:

(a) To defend or protect himself against an obstructing opponent.

Exception: An eligible receiver is considered to be an obstructing opponent ONLY to a point five yards beyond the line of scrimmage unless the player who receives the snap clearly demonstrates no further intention to pass the ball. Within this five-yard zone, a defensive player may chuck an eligible player in front of him. A defensive player is allowed to maintain continuous and unbroken contact within the five-yard zone until a point when the receiver is even with the defender. The defensive player cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an eligible receiver in a manner that restricts movement as the play develops. Beyond this five-yard limitation, a defender may use his hands or arms ONLY to defend or protect himself against impending contact caused by a receiver. In such reaction, the defender may not contact a receiver who attempts to take a path to evade him.

( To push or pull opponent out of the way on line of scrimmage.

© In actual attempt to get at or tackle runner.

(d) To push or pull opponent out of the way in a legal attempt to recover a loose ball.

(e) During a legal block on an opponent who is not an eligible pass receiver.

(f) When legally blocking an eligible pass receiver above the waist.

Exception: Eligible receivers lined up within two yards of the tackle, whether on or immediately behind the line, may be blocked below the waist at or behind the line of scrimmage. NO eligible receiver may be blocked below the waist after he goes beyond the line. (Illegal cut)

Note: Once the quarterback hands off or pitches the ball to a back, or if the quarterback leaves the pocket area, the restrictions (illegal chuck, illegal cut) on the defensive team relative to the offensive receivers will end, provided the ball is not in the air.

5. A defensive player may not contact an opponent above the shoulders with the palm of his hand except to ward him off on the line. This exception is permitted only if it is not a repeated act against the same opponent during any one contact. In all other cases the palms may be used on head, neck, or face only to ward off or push an opponent in legal attempt to get at the ball.

6. Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball or to whom a teammate pretends to give the ball may be tackled provided he is crossing his scrimmage line between the ends of a normal tight offensive line.

7. An offensive player who lines up more than two yards outside his own tackle or a player who, at the snap, is in a backfield position and subsequently takes a position more than two yards outside a tackle may not clip an opponent anywhere nor may he contact an opponent below the waist if the blocker is moving toward the ball and if contact is made within an area five yards on either side of the line. (crackback)

8. A player of either team may block at any time provided it is not pass interference, fair catch interference, or unnecessary roughness.

9. A player may not bat or punch:

(a) A loose ball (in field of play) toward his opponent’s goal line or in any direction in either end zone.

( A ball in player possession.

Note: If there is any question as to whether a defender is stripping or batting a ball in player possession, the official(s) will rule the action as a legal act (stripping the ball).

Exception: A forward or backward pass may be batted, tipped, or deflected in any direction at any time by either the offense or the defense.

Note: A pass in flight that is controlled or caught may only be thrown backward, if it is thrown forward it is considered an illegal bat.

10. No player may deliberately kick any ball except as a punt, dropkick, or placekick.

*********************************************************

If your question is not answered here, click this link for other areas to look.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules

You could've just posted the one that was relevant.

[SkinsFanAnt]

You could've just posted the one that was relevant.

For real...can anyone pick out the part that's relevant...I'm to lazy to read that entire thing right now!

[redskin56]

Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.

This is the portion of the rule, and yes there were two illegal blocks in the back that were not called.

Anyone else see the blatant facemask on Portis on one of the late third down runs that came up a yard short. Would have been an automatic first down but no flag.

Or how about the offensive interference/illegal contact on Thrash that negated a 47 yard play? How can a receiver initiate contact with a defender and committ a pass intereference when he is being illegally contacted by the defender. Doesn't make any sense.

[Burgold]

just add it to the list :doh:

We lost that game with 9 drops and stupid TO's, but the refs sure added the whip cream and cherry to make sure. I just wish we hadn't supplied the three scoops of ice cream, bannanas, nuts, hot fudge, silverware, and dish.

[skinsn24]

This is really not worthing complaining about, Al Harris could have layed out JC, i was actually waitin for it to happen, but he showed some class and just nudged JC a few times. No big deal, as i said, Harris could have legally destroyed JC if he wanted.

[artmonkforHOF]

This is really not worthing complaining about, Al Harris could have layed out JC, i was actually waitin for it to happen, but he showed some class and just nudged JC a few times. No big deal, as i said, Harris could have legally destroyed JC if he wanted.

I never was tryingto use this example as an excuse as to why we lost, I was jsut wondering why there was no flag when it appeared there was a ref looking right at it. ANd to top it off it happend to a QB, the most protected position in the NFL.

I just wanted a clarification on the rule because someone (a packer fan) tried to tell me that becasue it did not impede the play, it was not called making it a judgement call where I thought it was a rule implimeted for player safety and therefore called no matter what the outcome was.

Thanks for the reference CHU.

[AceSkinsFan]

Here's a rule we REALLY need to clarify. On that so-called "interception" by JC, both Randle El and the defender had caught the ball at the same time. They both went to the ground with the ball as well. I was under the impression that the tie goes to the offense, yet this was called an INT. Did someone else see something I didn't or was this just a horribly bad call?

[Burgold]

It was a horribly bad call, especially since by rule they can't challenge it. There wasn't an instant where one person had possession and the other did not.

[pointyfootball]

This is really not worthing complaining about, Al Harris could have layed out JC, i was actually waitin for it to happen, but he showed some class and just nudged JC a few times. No big deal, as i said, Harris could have legally destroyed JC if he wanted.

I was shocked that he didn't. On a turnover, EVERYONE loves to get the QB.

[ffxdrummer]

Here's a rule we REALLY need to clarify. On that so-called "interception" by JC, both Randle El and the defender had caught the ball at the same time. They both went to the ground with the ball as well. I was under the impression that the tie goes to the offense, yet this was called an INT. Did someone else see something I didn't or was this just a horribly bad call?

6. The player who first controls and continues to maintain control of a pass will be awarded the ball even though his opponent later establishes joint control of the ball.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/forwardpass

[Enzo]

Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.

This is the portion of the rule, and yes there were two illegal blocks in the back that were not called.

Anyone else see the blatant facemask on Portis on one of the late third down runs that came up a yard short. Would have been an automatic first down but no flag.

Or how about the offensive interference/illegal contact on Thrash that negated a 47 yard play? How can a receiver initiate contact with a defender and committ a pass intereference when he is being illegally contacted by the defender. Doesn't make any sense.

He can't & that was an aweful call by the officials. If you watch the play the defender grabs & holds Thrash & then in the process of Thrash breaking his grasp the defender falls to the ground. That play should have been illegal use of hands or holding on the defender not offensive pass interference. But what did you expect, Green Bay defenders were committing holding & illegal use of hands penalties on practically every pass play & the officials just ignored most of them.

[TotalRecall]

I didn't see the block in the back. The thing that I was questioning was he down by contact when he recovered the fumble. The general rule of clipping is that you have to get your helmet in front of the opposing player, if you do then you can put your hands in front or back of the player.

[TotalRecall]

Here's a rule we REALLY need to clarify. On that so-called "interception" by JC, both Randle El and the defender had caught the ball at the same time. They both went to the ground with the ball as well. I was under the impression that the tie goes to the offense, yet this was called an INT. Did someone else see something I didn't or was this just a horribly bad call?

Yeah, that pass should have gone to Randle-El. I'm waiting for NFL Network's ask the referee commissioner segment to talk about that. I doubt that they will, since they only show when the referee is correct and not wrong.

[Godfather151981]

A block in the back is a block in the back. It also appeared to me that they were trying to take advantage of the fact that while JC was the quarterback, he wasn't really acting in his capacity as the quarterback.

[MontanaRed]

You could've just posted the one that was relevant.

You could've just posted your one line without quoting a huge block of text.

just jokin' :laugh:

[Leonard Washington]

This is really not worthing complaining about, Al Harris could have layed out JC, i was actually waitin for it to happen, but he showed some class and just nudged JC a few times. No big deal, as i said, Harris could have legally destroyed JC if he wanted.

i thought harris was being nice as well. i don't think ST would have been so nice to favre.

[rhyno]

Gibbs said he was turning the thrash call in to the league btw. Hell of a lot of good it does us now. The refs called a terrible game, but I can't use it as an excuse because it went both ways.

[Xero21]

Anyone else see the blatant facemask on Portis on one of the late third down runs that came up a yard short. Would have been an automatic first down but no flag.

YES I'm glad someone else noticed that. That no-call really pissed me off, Portis's head got turned just like Sean Taylor's last year in the Dallas game. That's 15 yards we could have had.