fansince62 Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 i pass by the capitol/supreme court on my way to/from metro every day. something caught my attention: first...the disclaimer....I am tugged both ways when it comes to the abortion argument. that said...last wednesday some pro-choice groups desiring to mark the anniversary of Roe v Wade decided to mount a protest. What caught my attention was that there were several large groups of teenage girls being led by adult female organizers. it struck me as questionable at best how these folks had decided to politicize their daughters and friends' daughters. one tacit message is that the adults view the children as political commodities, pawns if you will, in this fight that has inextricably connected women's empowerment to abortion rights. not sure if this is right or wrong, but I do know it is cynical. and I have a little girl so her welfare is paramount to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 What was the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 24, 2003 Author Share Posted January 24, 2003 i editted the suject line to "observation for the board" but it does not seem to hahve taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Fan since 62, funny that you see that only on one side. MAybe it's just the day you were there. When I lived on Capitol Hill last year, I would regularly see parents out there with their kids wearing shirts that said " I wasn't aborted." or "I survived." Sadly, both sides have taken to using their children as political assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 24, 2003 Author Share Posted January 24, 2003 gbear.....only reporting what I saw so its not funny (i.e., there is no hidden agenda)....but I agree with your point...it cuts both ways..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Honestly, I didn't mean funny about you commenting on it. I meant funny because there always seemed to be a family there every weekend (and usually different families). I used to walk by the Supreme Court building on the way to Union Station for some chicken curry pasta salad that was just incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 The thing about the abortion issue that gets me is this... The Republicans are against abortion, but they are also against welfare which is needed to take care of all the the children who were not aborted. I don't really get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Code, Don't be confused there son. Republicans are for people exhibiting some responsibility for their own lives. That we don't want children aborted as a general sense is not in any way odd that we don't also want to pay someone else for having kids in the form of welfare. You seem to think it's a straight one for one thing here. No abortion means no other option. Wrong. You have adoption as an option. And more, guess what? You have the option of keeping your legs shut . Honest. What's really needed to take care of children who are not aborted is a parent, or, in a perfect world, TWO parents. Not government. So, take your "It takes a village to raise a child," Hillary Clinton nonsense somewhere where it's impactful. It takes a parent to raise a child. Not the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just skins baby Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth control. I vote Republican and in my own mind I can understand abortion for certain reasons. It has happened in my family for reason that are personal. Young kids and others on assistance need to practice safe sex and realize the taxpayers are tired of footing the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Art, I agree with everything you said, but wouldn't you agree, right or wrong, that if abortion is outlawed, that there will be more unwanted children? Sure, abortion will go on illegally, but for the average person, they will be forced to either try an abortion on themselves or have the baby and many will go on welfare or be forced to put their children in the states care. Sure, there will be some adoptions... but the people adopting are not always wanting the children that are available. How many GOP middleaged men who are fighting for these children's rights are adopting these children that they care so much for? That is something to think about. Just Skins Baby, I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth control either, and I too am tired of footing the bill for welfare... Kids need to grow up and be responsible for themselves... but in the past, a teenage pregnant girl went away to have the baby out of town where no one knew, then gave the baby up for adoption. Today, the kids keep their own kids and end up being supported by the state.... So, no matter how you look at it... you get back to the same question.... If your 15 year old daughter told you she was pregnant, what would you do? What would you want her to do? I know people dead set against abortion, until they were put in that situation. I haven't been in it, but I can imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Well, for starters I dont want any doctor performing ANY operation on my child without my notification. Furthermore, I dont want ANYONE to take her across state lines (breaking the law) to avoid that notification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I learned about abortion from my classmates growing up. Maybe it was because I grew up in DC and it might be different elsewhere, maybe it was because of the school I went to and it might be different elsewhere, but the one thing that was made perfectly clear to me by the girls in my class when I was a kid (6th, 7th grade) was that if you have any sense in you, you believe in a woman's right to choose, and if you don't, then you are a hopeless, knuckledragging neanderthal. Some of those girls could get downright scary if you so much as hinted dissent (not that I did, I wasn't interested in abortion and whatever they wanted was fine with me), so that fansince62 saw a bunch of young girls marching in favor of Roe v. Wade isn't that surprising to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Well, for starters I dont want any doctor performing ANY operation on my child without my notification. Furthermore, I dont want ANYONE to take her across state lines (breaking the law) to avoid that notification. I couldn't agree more... If I had a daughter and they made a mistake, I would hope that I had the relationship with them that would allow them to talk to my wife and I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Code, What part of self-responsibility do you fail to grasp here? If abortion were outlawed -- not by the Federal government, mind, as the feds have no business in this game at all -- in any particular state, and a person really needed to have one, they could go to a state that did allow it. If all states act in concert to outlaw the practice, then, perhaps there would be more unwanted pregancies. Or, perhaps people would reconsider opening their legs knowing there's a consequence to their action. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Originally posted by Art Code, What part of self-responsibility do you fail to grasp here? If abortion were outlawed -- not by the Federal government, mind, as the feds have no business in this game at all -- in any particular state, and a person really needed to have one, they could go to a state that did allow it. If all states act in concert to outlaw the practice, then, perhaps there would be more unwanted pregancies. Or, perhaps people would reconsider opening their legs knowing there's a consequence to their action. Who knows? Art, your'e missing the point.... I agree with you that the number one problem is that people are not responsible about sex.... Peroid, I agree. What I am saying is this.... I don't want to be punished financially for other people's irresponsibility. If the Federal Government has ruled that protecting a woman's right to have an abortion IF THEY CHOOSE to, I am fine by that. If I am a woman, I can have one if I want, or I don't have to... Because I am not a woman, I look at it in 3 ways, If I were a teenager that got a girl pregnant, If I had a teenager that was pregnant and as a tax payer tired of paying for mothers to sit home with 8 kids that they started having since they were 13. It's absurd to me that we would not allow abortions... they need to be mandatory in some cases. Since my earliest memories are from when I was 2 yrs old, I doubt that If I were aborted, that I would feel any pain. I would rather have been aborted than to live with 8 brothers and sisters at my grandmothers rat infested house while my mom is out making more brothers and sisters for me. That's just my opinion. To say it's about murder is absurd.... Most against abortion would agree that in cases of rape that an abortion would be ok.... why is it ok then? You say because the woman is forced to carry the result of a crime against her, but if it's murder, (I'm not saying you think it's murder), than it is still murder, the fetus didn't commit a crime, the dad did. I just don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 24, 2003 Author Share Posted January 24, 2003 Code......what I saw was one adult woman per group of 50 teenage girls....not parents with their kids. This is a bit different from parents showing up with their kids. It's suggests organization and coordination of an altogetehr different nature. But.....this may be making small distinctions. I still agrtee with your main point. there are a few things I would like to get out, however, since we've headed down this road: 1) I don't know where the feminists and pro-choice folks are coming from when they use the unversal in terms of women supporting pro-choice. When I watch the tube, read the papers and reflect on my own persaonal experience with relatives, workmates, social gatherings....it all suggests that there are large numbers of women who are anti-abortion. Women are far from being universally agreed on pro-choice. I don't know what the actual per cenatages are, but I know it's nothing near what advocates claim it to be. The murkiness in the numbers becomes even more pronounced as you move into grey areas like third trimester abortions. 2) I was simply astounded by the 40 million number for abortions since Roe v Wade. One has to stand back and breathe that number in...feel its full impact......40 million potential people. This is American industrialism at its best and it far surpasses anything the wildest German dreamer could have hoped for Treblinka or Auschwitz. Yes...I have used some hyperbole. But if we are going to ponder where we are as a culture when assessing the death penalty, collateral victims in war, aids support, etc, then you have to consider this as well. Ellen Goodman in her Op Ed piece last Sunday in the Post brushed right past this as though it were a red badge of courage that didn't merit further thought than that it's not an easy decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Abortion is only one form of birth control out of many. If a woman wants an abortion then fine, it's none of my business anyway. It's but a small thing and has little impact on overall population data. Just don't ask me to pay for it. Given the direction we are headed it won't matter much anyway. http://dieoff.org/page224.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Code, I'm not sure what to make of you. First, the vast majority of people who are "Pro Life" believe no abortion should be legal under any circumstances outside of the mother being in danger of dying. I am against abortion on grounds that abortion should not be a form of birth control. I am against abortion on the grounds that the man who is part of the tango required to get a woman pregnant is legally responsible for the financial care of the child in this country if he doesn't want the baby, but, if he does, he has no say in the matter if the woman doesn't. I am against abortion because we charge murders with double murder when they kill a pregnant woman, and yet that same woman could go have an abortion and it's not so? I am for the killing of humans in many cases. I believe we should encourage doctors to help kill terminal patients who wish the help. I believe we should encourage the husbands or fathers of wives and daughters to murder the ******* that did it. I believe we should absolutely kill the seed of a criminal who would make an unwanting woman pregnant by his uncontrolled violence, or influence. Remember, though, I'm not a Pro Lifer. No Pro Lifer feels any abortion is acceptable, so your argument is incorrectly phrased. There are many people who believe as I do that abortion is wrong for many of, all of, or other reasons I've listed here and elsewhere. But, as I said, I'm far more left on the abortion issue than you are. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Fansince62, I agree.. I in no way think that all women are pro choice. I know many female's that are dead against abortion. I am against abortion as birth control... but what do we do, sterillize the irresponsible kids that can't control themselves? I honestly don't know what the answer is... I just think that abortion should be legal. Parents NEED to do a better job with their kids, peroid. But sadly, manytimes, the parents don't even know what is going on. I'm not a blind pro choice defender, you would never see me out at a protest and I wouldn't vote on a candidate for that issue alone, but I just don't see a positive in making abortion illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Tex, "If a woman wants an abortion then fine, it's none of my business anyway." That's not actually the case though, is it? If you got that woman pregnant and you desperately wanted the child, you're right, somehow it's none of your business. But, if you got that woman pregnant and you desperately want the child terminated, well, sorry, then it is your business and the courts will require you pay for the child financially whether you are acting as the father or not. So, in fact, it is your business, as a man. You have a stake in this fight. Every single pregnancy in the world, in the entire time the world has been around, has required a woman AND a man to connsumate. Women, save Mary I guess, haven't just woken up pregnant without the assistance of a man. Men absolutely have equal rights in this regard. Because they are a part of the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 24, 2003 Author Share Posted January 24, 2003 Code...it is a tough issue....i confess that as a youth in high school and college I was strongly pro-choice. as I grow older, have children, and witness the results of American abortion.......I'm much less convinced of the ethics of most abortions. and I rue that a poltical movement with justified claims in many instances - the women's movement - has tied itself at the core to the abortion issue as a bedrock absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Abortion is not really all that complex of an issue. Is the fetus life? If yes, murder is wrong although as Kant pointed out, killing your children is fraught with mitigating circumstances. If no, the only thing is that is questionable is whether a minor should be allowed to undergo an elective surgery without parental consent or, at least, notification. It is the affter effects of a decision for or against an abortion that are complicated. BTW, in my personal experience re minors and abortions (albiet so far, that's a pretty small sample size), its usually the girl or boy's parents who want the abortion anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Originally posted by OPM Abortion is not really all that complex of an issue. Is the fetus life? If yes, murder is wrong although as Kant pointed out, killing your children is fraught with mitigating circumstances. If no, the only thing is that is questionable is whether a minor should be allowed to undergo an elective surgery without parental consent or, at least, notification. It is the affter effects of a decision for or against an abortion that are complicated. BTW, in my personal experience re minors and abortions (albiet so far, that's a pretty small sample size), its usually the girl or boy's parents who want the abortion anyway. I agree with everything you said..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Originally posted by OPM Abortion is not really all that complex of an issue. Is the fetus life? If yes, murder is wrong although as Kant pointed out, killing your children is fraught with mitigating circumstances. If no, the only thing is that is questionable is whether a minor should be allowed to undergo an elective surgery without parental consent or, at least, notification. It is the affter effects of a decision for or against an abortion that are complicated. BTW, in my personal experience re minors and abortions (albiet so far, that's a pretty small sample size), its usually the girl or boy's parents who want the abortion anyway. On a personal level, you are right, its not a complex issue, it boils down to at what point you believe life begins. But applying it to the social level is far more complex, basically because it is so subjective. Also, Kant is possibly the last person I would turn to when discussing abortion. His categorical imperative only serves to illustrate the problem with this issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Prolife and there are plenty of people that would adopt code. Heck if you read jet and Ebony magazine you'd see topics about the outrage of black kids being adopted by whites. Heck alot of couples have to go out of the country to adopt kids. We had guys in my unit adopt kids of teenage shipmates that didnt want to be saddled down but didnt want to kill the baby. The number is higher than 40 million since we averaged between 2 and 4 million abortions a year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.