Thinking Skins Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 By Paul Woody/Richmond Times-Dispatch http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/teams/redskins/index.html Smoot will be one of Edwards' first assignments Jan. 19, 2003 Print it One of George Edwards' first jobs as defensive coordinator should be to bring cornerback Fred Smoot's performance back to its level in 2001, when he seemed to get better every game. In 2002, Smoot faltered as the season wore on, though part of that can be attributed to a back injury. Smoot and former coordinator Marvin Lewis, who was demanding and didn't like excuses, clashed at times. Smoot will gamble while trying to make big plays, but he didn't like hearing about it from Lewis when gambles failed. Edwards, who coached the linebackers in 2002, is more low-key than Lewis. Edwards played for coach Steve Spurrier at Duke and was a graduate assistant under Spurrier at Florida. ... Though the team needs to make an upgrade at both guard positions, it should be fine at center. Larry Moore has decent quickness and good strength and generally is reliable and steady. Moore needs to be more aware of blitzes, especially when they come up the middle. Part of Moore's problem last season was breakdowns that occurred around him. Moore also has experience at guard and gives the team flexibility to look for a guard and center instead of two guards. One idea would be to move Wilbert Brown to center and slide Moore to left guard. Brown's quickness might be a better fit at center because he was overpowered at times by tackles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thito_da_skins_fan Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by blakman211 One idea would be to move Wilbert Brown to center and slide Moore to left guard. i don't ever want to see Wilbert Brown in a Redskins jersey for as long as i live Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 I can't believe these reports of 'looking for two guards' are accurate at this stage unless there is some complication in Rod Jones' recovery from his biceps injury. It would appear to me that based on the 3 year deal he signed and the bonus we gave him that he would get a legitimate shot to come back and compete for a job. If he is close the 320 pound weight limit that Martz set for him in St. Louis, he can be an effective player as we have seen. What set Jones back was coming to camp at 340 pounds this summer and then not being able to adjust to the move back inside from tackle to guard. This year the transition should be smoother on the field and I would hope Jones has learned for the sake of his career he needs to come into camp in better shape. In my mind, you keep Moore at center. Remember, it was his first go around at the position in 2 or 3 years and is now just getting comfortable there again. He will be a better player at center in 2003 with a year under his belt here and as mentioned better talent at guard next to him. Brendan Stai, unfortunately, appears even before his injury to be a guy that is past his prime at a relatively young age of 31. He looked slow and a shell of the player he was for the Steelers earlier in his career. It is unfortunate as well that we gave up a #5 pick for him. I would rather have signed Tom Ackerman who was released by the Raiders and played decently for the Titans in 2002 as a one year stop gap until something better came along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty dread Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Jones is a scrub. He was nothing special coming in, and on top of that showed up fat as a blimp and had problems adjusting to guard. And you wonder why we are looking for two guards? Does anyone feel comfortable heading into camp having to rely on Jones getting his act together?? No way, cut his phat azz loose, write it off as a bad move, and move on. By they way, why can't we say a$$ on this board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thito_da_skins_fan Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 bulldog: i'm not so sure i agree with you about Jones he couldn't make the transition from tackle to guard -- i think we should leave him as a solid back-up to Jansen/Samuels furthermore, leave Moore at center, sign 2 guards (in addition to keeping Tre at RG and Sulfsted at OT), and make it work i am tired of moving players from one position to another -- it's a risk that never seems to work besides, i never really count on players coming off serious injuries -------------- ...edit... TheWarpath beat me to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 TH, To be fair, we don't know whether he could make the transistion to guard. He did not fit as well at right guard and on Day 3 of camp he was moved to left guard, and there were no comments about how he was transistion once the team did what they should have done with Jones all along, considering he was a perfect fit for left guard. As we've discussed here, Jones played in one half of one preseason game at left guard and was dominating. He made the transistion just fine in that appearance. Then he had to move back to tackle and that would have slowed his evolution into a guard for us. I don't mind moving people from the outside to the inside. Same as I don't mind moving a great corner to safety for an extra couple of years of productivity at the end of a career. My hope for Jones is that he's the primary backup at at least three line positions rather than the starter, though, I'd be comfortable starting him until there was visible evidence he wasn't performing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thito_da_skins_fan Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 that's why i said sign 2 guards in addition to Tre even though i hate experiments, i don't mind *trying* Jones at LG -- but that's ONLY if we have already signed 2 guards that are *capable* of starting... i would NOT feel comfortable going the whole offseason assuming Jones can start at LG and then realizing he can't once the preseason starts... i want 2 starters in place and Jones can compete with them... by the way, what game did Jones dominate? and who was he lined up against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 my guess is that one of the players in the mix for a guard spot is going to be a draft choice. I don't see the Skins signing TWO guards in free agency, not unless the plan is to troll in August for $550K guys as we did last year, without great success I might add signing a guard early in free agency is going to cost a fair amount (you always seem to pay a premium those first few weeks), so the team will probably target one guy like a Mo Collins to go after and then move on to other needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddha Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 On the subject of Wilbert Brown, I think it's pretty incredible that we found this guy under a rock in NFL Europe and Helton managed to squeeze 9 starts out of him. He'll be cheap for several seasons and can only get better with a full offseason under his belt. He's the guy I'm counting on to provide depth at all 3 interior line positions next season. David Loverne is the guy I hope I never see in a Redskin uniform again. He makes Shar Pourdanesh look like Joe Jacoby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thito_da_skins_fan Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by bulldog my guess is that one of the players in the mix for a guard spot is going to be a draft choice. i sure as hell hope so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 You nailed that one Buddha. If there's been a more pathetic excuse for a lineman than Loverne in recent memory, I'd be hard pressed to name him! If I have to see back to back holding calls by $hit for brains again, I think I'll have a coronary. I suppose thats unkind, he's probably a decent human being, but if I played as poorly as he did, I'd at least have the decency to acknowledge I didn't have what it took to make it in the NFL and begin lining up my Ford dealership or something. He better not be back next year. :puke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Kyriacou Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 David Loverne is the guy I hope I never see in a Redskin uniform again. He makes Shar Pourdanesh look like Joe Jacoby. [/b] Amen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Hopefully Loverne will be some of the dead weight that SS will clean out this offseason. The guy just didn't seem to have the mental focus necessary to play in this league. I don't even want to see him as a backup next year. Stai is gone as well i think. I'd like to see Jones brought back, with W. Brown playing in reserve. We've got Tre and Moore will be better next year, now we need a real, bonified LG and a few rookie prospects who can play inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMADD Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Bulldog: I would hope Jones has learned for the sake of his career he needs to come into camp in better shape. That's the problem, Bulldog. With Jones, all we have is hope. We hope he's recovered. We hope he's in shape. We hope he can learn to play guard. History is against us. The reason everyone thinks we need to find two guards is because we don't have two legitimate starters on the team. Until he proves otherwise, Jones isn't. Tre Johnson wasn't a full-time player this year. No one else is that promising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty dread Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 I think you hit the nail on the head MRMADD. We need 2 legitimate starters at guard. We can't go into camp next year hoping Tre can stay healthy, or hoping that Jones is in shape and makes the transition to guard. If we don't go into camp with a solid offensive line in place, we will be making a huge mistake. This problem should have been addressed last year, we just can't overlook the problems of the interior again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 i don't ever want to see Wilbert Brown in a Redskins jersey for as long as i live Well, tell us how you feel Thito11, don't hold anything back. :laugh: As for guard, I'm comfortable giving Jones a shot at the LG spot... granted he comes to camp healed from the injury and at a good weight. IF he comes in overweight again, I think you cut him immediately and put a flyer on the windshield of all the other players before they leave that day. "Jones...CUT.... Showed a lack of respect for the organization by reporting to camp at a weight ill-suited to be successful on this team. Who's next????" It's a good gamble if he's kept to compete for the starting job and is beaten out, can still be a competent back-up at either tackle. Of course, Alex Sulfsted showed he was capable of playing LT in case of an emergency. You're forgetting one guy, someone who recently received praise by the team for his potential and skills. AKil Smith may just be the starting LG this year. And...if that's what the team is planning on then you'll see only one guard picked up....either in the draft or via FA. Heck..it's certainly possible that no guards are signed and we go to camp with the above in place plus Loverne and Stai. Then.... I'll commence to building a pipe bomb capable of blowing up the Ashburn complex. If the team doesn't find it important to build a solid interior OL, than I don't find it important to keep the complex standing. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMADD Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Warpath: If we don't go into camp with a solid offensive line in place, we will be making a huge mistake. Agreed. Cskin: If the team doesn't find it important to build a solid interior OL, than I don't find it important to keep the complex standing. Agreed. Anyone who thinks we've got all the answers to our offensive line woes already on the roster hasn't been paying attention. Before his injury, Jones showed up fat and slow, and struggled mightily to learn to play guard. He's probably not the answer. Tre Johnson played well, but had to share time with Brown because he's not in shape and he's still recovering from surgery. The rest of the guys, including Akil Smith are either (1) unproven or (2) proven to stink. We do need two new guards, probably one veteran free agent and one rookie second-rounder. The front office seems to know this, because more and more sports reporters are writing about how we're looking for two guards. The trouble is that this is not the greatest guard draft (about 3 prospects who figure to be taken in the late first/early second range) and it's a lousy free agent market for guards. The Skins are going to have to be creative to find two quality starting guards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thito_da_skins_fan Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by MRMADD We do need two new guards, probably one veteran free agent and one rookie second-rounder. exactly -- that sums it up to perfection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimReaper21 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 I agree with buddha. I don't think wilbert brown is that bad. And i hate david loverne. He is garbage. I also agree with bulldog, I think rod jones could be counted on to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thito_da_skins_fan Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by SmootSkins21 I agree with buddha. I don't think wilbert brown is that bad. And i hate david loverne. He is garbage. I also agree with bulldog, I think rod jones could be counted on to start. yeah, Wilbert Brown isn't bad when he's not playing did anyone else but me watch the New Orleans game? or any other game where the other team had anything but a horrid defensive line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Jones didn't show up out of shape to camp. He was asked to bulk up to play right guard, which is more of a mauling position. He gained weight. When he was switched back to left guard, which is like left tackle in this offense, he started to drop some weight. I don't know if Jones projects out at left guard as well as he looked in his only appearance at left guard with us. If he does, legitimately, we're set there. I still like his versatility as a primary backup to several spots more than having no choice but to start him at left guard, as we had to do last year until his injury. But, he's certainly a player I'd be completely comfortable working into that spot as our starter. We do need to bring Tre back, and, hopefully, sign a solid, younger starter in free agency to increase our depth and feel at the guard spots. I don't think anyone has ever said differently. Guard can't be our focus at No. 13 though. I don't think anyone has said any different than that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMADD Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Art: Jones didn't show up out of shape to camp. He was asked to bulk up to play right guard, which is more of a mauling position. He gained weight. When he was switched back to left guard, which is like left tackle in this offense, he started to drop some weight. Simply not true. He did show up out of shape, and he had a history of doing so. From ESPN (Fat Lenny last August): Key position battle Despite having two tremendous young offensive tackles in Chris Samuels and Jon Jansen, the Redskins might be miserably deficient at guard, and that could hurt the running game led by piledriving tailback Stephen Davis. Veteran free agent Kipp Vickers could oust the untested David Loverne, picked up from the New York Jets in a throwaway trade, from the left guard spot. In fact, if Vickers doesn't win the battle, Washington could be in a heap of trouble. Loverne has been working with the No. 1 unit all spring, but he is short-armed, slow afoot and yet to start a regular-season game. The right guard, former Bengals starter and Rams backup Rod Jones, is moving inside from tackle to guard for the first time in his career. Jones is perennially overweight, has some problems with depression, and is too often off his feet. Still he is a better fit than what the Redskins have on the left side. Art: I don't know if Jones projects out at left guard as well as he looked in his only appearance at left guard with us. If he does, legitimately, we're set there. I still like his versatility as a primary backup to several spots more than having no choice but to start him at left guard, as we had to do last year until his injury. So let me get this straight: a guy plays one good preseason game, and you're ready to declare that we're set there? OK, that makes Wuerffel our QB, doesn't it? Here's some more on Jones: "Journeyman Rod Jones, overweight and seemingly always on the ground, is the band-aid at left tackle. But he has proven incapable of playing the blindside position in the past and isn't apt to improve over the next month. " Here's some stuff on his success at guard: "The Redskins have badly needed a starting guard or two since the spring, when they decided not to re-sign Dave Szott and Ben Coleman. Second-year player Ross Tucker from Princeton emerged as the only steady guard at training camp, while an attempt to move Rod Jones from tackle to guard failed. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Madd, You should know a couple of things by now on this board. Lenny the Hutt is hardly a source you want to bolster. However, if you do, how about writing what Lenny said in April when we signed Jones: "Although he has primarily been a tackle most of his career, Jones will start at guard for the Skins, the spot some pro personnel directors have insisted for years might be his best position. He will also provide Washington a proven veteran backup to its tandem of standout young tackles, Chris Samuels and Jon Jansen, as well as overall leadership. His in-line blocking strength should project well to guard." This is written here, http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1362236.html The fact is, Lenny himself can't keep things straight. In April he wrote about what personnel directors have insisted for years might be Jones' best position. Then, in August, he writes what he, himself, thinks, and isn't it odd how the two articles conflict. In April he knew Jones had been a guard in his career. In August he says he's playing guard for the first time in his career. Please, never again try to use Lenny to convince me of something when Lenny himself can't be trusted to say the same thing four months apart. Secondly, it remains a truism that Jones was asked to add weight to play right guard for the Redskins. He did so. He then was moved to the left side and began to lose weight to accomodate the change in position. But, thanks for playing. Next. "So let me get this straight: a guy plays one good preseason game, and you're ready to declare that we're set there? OK, that makes Wuerffel our QB, doesn't it?" No, Madd, I didn't say anything close to the sort. I said, "I don't know if Jones projects out at left guard as well as he looked in his only appearance at left guard with us. If he does, legitimately, we're set there." So, get straight the fact I didn't say a guy plays one good preseason game and I'm ready to declare we're set there. I said I don't know if Jones projects out at left guard as well as he looked in his only appearance at left guard, but IF he does, then we're set. I then wrote I'd prefer to consider him as a primary backup, though, I wouldn't mind seeing him with another chance. The fact is that Rod Jones was brought here to play right guard. I never understood why that was so as I thought he was ideal for left guard. He didn't take well to right guard and was moved to left guard. In that sense, the switch didn't work. But, it was working and likely would have worked on the other side where he belonged all the time. I credit Helton with quickly realizing something the front office didn't know. Jones' skills are suited for left tackle and therefore left guard. He's not probably ever a superior prospect at right guard though. Rod Jones was once considered a franchise level left tackle when he played with the Bengals. After his season in 1999 he signed a Top 5 contract and his career went downward as he was not able to handle the success and he suffered through depression and nearly quit football. If motivated, there's no question Jones has the physical tools to excel inside. If he is too comfortable in life that may be a fair question to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMADD Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Art: Rod Jones was once considered a franchise level left tackle when he played with the Bengals. After his season in 1999 he signed a Top 5 contract and his career went downward as he was not able to handle the success and he suffered through depression and nearly quit football. If motivated, there's no question Jones has the physical tools to excel inside. If he is too comfortable in life that may be a fair question to ask. I know all about Fat Lenny. He was just the first quote that popped up. Rod Jones really doesn't act like a guy who's hungry to succeed anymore. He made a lot of cash, and now he doesn't seem to work that hard. He was out-of-shape, and that probably contributed to his injury. I seem his as a Westbrook-like player: flashes of brilliance, and years of disappointment because his heart isn't where his talent is. Yes, he had one good preseason game, but he also had one lousy one -- and apparently a bunch of lousy practices. I'm not writing him off, but I think we should put him in the "Won't we be surprised if he has anything to contribute" column. I don't think we should count on him at all until he proves otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Madd, Jones tore his bicep. Carrying the extra weight the team asked him to carry had absolutely nothing to do with his injury. He didn't have one good preseason game and one lousy one. He had one great preseason game and one very good one before getting injured in the third early. He had a very strong performance against Pittsburgh at left tackle for us in his second game. So, as is the usual with some arguments people maintain, your point of view can only be substantiated if you make things up, but it can't be substantiated if you actually speak factually. Why not just let the reality of the situation guide you rather than fictionalizing what actually was witnessed in an attempt to create something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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