TWT Skins report 1/19

[SonnyJ]

Rod Jones really doesn't act like a guy who's hungry to succeed anymore. He made a lot of cash, and now he doesn't seem to work that hard.

Excuse me for interrupting, guys, but MADD - how on earth do you know this?

I haven't heard word one about Jones since preseason. Certainly nothing about his work ethic. What inside source do you have that indicated this to you?

[UK Skins]

I have seen Brown listed as a center/guard in several places and, in fact, NFL.com (sorry to keep quoting them but I haven't got much else here) lists Brown just as a center. Maybe we should give him a break if he played his rookie year out of position? he could turn out to be well worth keeping.

[thito_da_skins_fan]

what is this infatuation with Wilbert 'i couldn't block my sister' Brown?!

Brown played center and guard at Houston (college) -- i think he played center mostly in NFL Europe

who knows?

who cares?

did anyone see him play this year? this was *not* his rookie year -- he's been in the league for 4 years and never gotten much attention... hmmmm, wonder why?

let him and Loverne go :doh:

[gbear]

Why does everyone discount Vickers?

He was in at OG toward the end of the season. He got good push, and seemed to do fairly well in pass protection.

Did anyone else watch his play? Maybe it's just me, but I watched him because I expected him to suck. What I saw was far from it.

The knock on Vickers has always been short arms. That's what plagued him as an OT. He couldn't get a hold of the defenders. IN cramped corners of the OG position, I thought he was really able to use his strength well.

I'm probably the only one, but I wouldn't cringe going into next season with Vickers and Tre at one OG position and Jones and a rookie or FA at the other.

The advantage to Sulfstead, Vickers, and Jones as backups is that all three of them have some experience at OT if tragedy strikes and we lose one or more of our OTs.

[UK Skins]

I took the NFL experience straight off NFL.com which lists him as having one year NFL experience. He seems to have taken part in five other games for San Diego but I am not sure where the four years come from?

My infatuation with Brown comes from the fact that we don't have a reserve center and I am not completely sold on Moore as our starter.:puke:

[thito_da_skins_fan]

Originally posted by UK Skins

I took the NFL experience straight off NFL.com which lists him as having one year NFL experience. He seems to have taken part in five other games for San Diego but I am not sure where the four years come from?

My infatuation with Brown comes from the fact that we don't have a reserve center and I am not completely sold on Moore as our starter.:puke:

San Diego picked him up as an undrafted RFA in 1999

don't feel like typing so i found this off the redskins.com website

Pro Career: Entered the NFL in 1999 as a rookie free agent with the San Diego Chargers and saw special teams action in five games that season. He was on the Chargers active roster in 2000, but did not play a down. In 2001, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers allocated Brown to NFL Europe. He started all 10 games with the Frankfurt Galaxy in 2001 and was protected by the team for the 2002 season. Brown helped the Galaxy rush for 1,433 yards in 2002, second in the NFLEL.

a reserve center is something we need to address... if Brown is *only* a reserve center, fine... i don't want him starting, plain and simple... if we lose Brown and sign another reserve center, i'm not gonna lose any sleep... i just don't want Wilbert playing guard... and i like Moore at C, not sure why you don't...

[MRMADD]

He had a very strong performance against Pittsburgh at left tackle for us in his second game. So, as is the usual with some arguments people maintain, your point of view can only be substantiated if you make things up, but it can't be substantiated if you actually speak factually. Why not just let the reality of the situation guide you rather than fictionalizing what actually was witnessed in an attempt to create something else?

First of all, we're talking about Jones at guard, not tackle, unless you're so infatuated with him that you think he'll supplant Samuels.

Reminder of his "strong performance" in the Steeler's game: "Rosenfels’ early action saw him get stripped on the first play of his second series when fill-in left tackle Rod Jones let linebacker Joey Porter get in for a blind-side sack."

And here's a quote about his ability at guard, from TSN: "Jones, a six-year veteran, was signed in April as a free agent from St. Louis, where he mostly played tackle. The Redskins tried to convert him to guard, but he struggled during camp and was eventually moved to tackle as a backup to Chris Samuels. "

Sonny J:

Excuse me for interrupting, guys, but MADD - how on earth do you know this? I haven't heard word one about Jones since preseason. Certainly nothing about his work ethic. What inside source do you have that indicated this to you?

Yeah, I've got a great inside source: the newspaper. At least one reporter thinks we're gonna release him because he's fat and can't play guard.

Here's what USA Today had to say about Jones just last week: "Jones remains under contract after spending 2002 on injured reserve, but he came to camp out of shape and had difficulty adjusting to guard after playing tackle in St. Louis. Look for Jones to be released."

Jones is a fat lump of goo

I don't understand what it is about Jones that makes you guys think he's the answer at guard. He was fat and slow when he got here, and he failed at guard in the preseason. Given his competition at the time, that's pathetic. Again, I'm not writing him off completely, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were released.

[Art]

Madd,

"First of all, we're talking about Jones at guard, not tackle, unless you're so infatuated with him that you think he'll supplant Samuels."

Actually, no we weren't. According to you, we were discussing, "Yes, he had one good preseason game, but he also had one lousy one -- and apparently a bunch of lousy practices."

So, what we were talking about was how Jones played in two games. If we were talking about how he played at guard, it would be one game. You said we were talking about his one good preseason game and his one lousy one. Now you are saying we're talking about him at guard.

Well, at guard, he only played one game. He then played another at tackle. He then started a third at tackle, but got hurt. So, do you even know what we're talking about? I'm just responding to you. So, when you aren't clear on what we're talking about, read over what you said, and realize I'm answering you. If you can't keep it straight, don't speak.

Factually speaking, Jones had one very dominating preseason game at guard. He then had a second very good preseason game at left tackle. He then got hurt. This renders your statement about his "one lousy game" ineffective, as it's untrue. It's even more untrue when you now try to say you meant his bad game at guard, of which, he didn't have one.

You also need to understand the media, Madd.

Early in camp Helton discussed Jones struggling to play right guard so the team moved him to left guard. At no point was he ever moved to backup Samuels. He started in place of Samuels after starting at left guard. He then got hurt. While it remains mildly possible the lack of reps at left guard may have slowed his development there in the preseason, at no point was he ever moved to backup Samuels. Not ever. Not once. So, I don't care that Woody wrote it in TSN. Woody misses stuff, including player names, constantly.

And, every single comment about Jones struggling at guard was directly referencing his struggles at right guard. No comment about his struggles were there after he was moved to left guard. And, he was only moved from left guard as the starter and best player there because Samuels got hurt and he had to play left tackle as the best player there with Samuels out.

Again, I'll say that it limits the effectiveness of your point when you refuse to speak in reality and instead have to fictionalize the preseason to make a coherent point against a player. Factually speaking, you're false.

Factually speaking, again, the team asked Jones to bring extra weight to camp as they signed him as the starting right guard. Jones usually plays at 325. Like Samuels, who usually plays at 300 or a hair below, he came to camp, like Samuels, 20-30 pounds bigger, because, like Samuels, players lose weight in camp, and the team wanted Jones to carry extra bulk to play the right guard spot.

Every offensive lineman on every roster on every team in the league carries extra weight to start training camp. Every single last one because every one loses weight once they get on the field and they get down to whatever playing weight they have targeted. One of the biggest problems with Chris Samuels this year was he was sick early and lost so much weight that he couldn't get UP to his playing weight until several weeks into the season. But, that's a different story.

[thito_da_skins_fan]

the lengths of these posts seem to have greatly increased :laugh:

[MRMADD]

Art:

You also need to understand the media, Madd.

I'm trying to figure out if you meant that to be funny, or if you're really that much of a pompous blowhard.

Factually speaking, Jones had one very dominating preseason game at guard. He then had a second very good preseason game at left tackle. He then got hurt.

Factually speaking, the entire team had one very dominating preseason game -- you're talking about the Osaka Bowl. Art, I think you're getting suckered here. In that game, Wuerffel was 16 of 25 passing for 269 yards and three touchdowns. I suppose if he'd gotten injured after that, you'd be arguing that he's the answer at QB. Don't read too much into one preseason game -- especially one that was so lopsided that it made Rosenfels and Wuerffel look like Montana and Young.

And that second "very good" preseason game at tackle, the one where he gave up a sack against Pittsburgh, weren't you saying it was a "very strong" performance just a second ago? Next it'll be a "pretty good" performance, right?

Again, I'll say that it limits the effectiveness of your point when you refuse to speak in reality and instead have to fictionalize the preseason to make a coherent point against a player. Factually speaking, you're false.

Blah, blah, blah. Art, Jones did look good in Osaka -- but what did that prove? To you, it proves that he's a "very strong" left guard. To me, it proves nothing. That game, as the season bore out, was an aberration. The 49ers didn't show up to play. I haven't "fictionalized" anything. Let me read you a quote from that game: "Wuerffel played the second half and looked impressive, leading four scoring drives in four possessions and making two creative plays: a spin-move toss to Robert Gillespie to avoid a sack and a jump-pass to Ladell Betts."

Now you tell me: is that the same Wuerffel we saw in the regular season? And if not, how can you argue that Jones' one good performance in Osaka proves anything?

[SonnyJ]

Sorry, MADD. One little blurb in a USA Today article isn't convincing. I don't even know who the reporter is on this one.

Look, I'm not saying I know the situation with Jones and that he is bona fide. Maybe he does have poor work habits and maybe the team will decide that, coupled with his injury, he isn't worth it. But, for a team that needs guards and OL depth, and considering that Jones' contract isn't too prohibitive (I believe, but I could be wrong), I don't think they would let him go lightly.

You don't know the situation, either. You're purely jumping to a conclusion. Why haven't we seen this in the Post? Maske generally has the inside scoop at Redskins Park, and I haven't seen anything about this from him. The Post may not be the end all and be all of Redskins info, but it does tend to be the most credible source.

BTW, Art is referring to the Carolina preseason game, not Osaka. And, the Redskins also had another dominating preseason game when they beat the Bucs, 40-10, in Tampa (I know, BFD). And, as I recall from the Steeler game, other than the Porter sack, Jones held his own pretty well. Porter is a good player and a good pass rusher - he's beaten a lot of LTs. Just because Porter got him on one play doesn't mean Jones played poorly. Samuels got beat a lot in the early part of the season. Does that mean that he is chopped liver, too?

[Art]

Madd,

"I'm trying to figure out if you meant that to be funny, or if you're really that much of a pompous blowhard."

Likely the pompous blowhard part is more apt. You need to figure out the media, Madd. Until you do, you'll seem like you're just clueless. As a former member of the media, I do know how it works. As the pompous blowhard, let me say to you that if you ever wonder, just ask me, because I know better than you .

"Factually speaking, the entire team had one very dominating preseason game -- you're talking about the Osaka Bowl. Art, I think you're getting suckered here. In that game, Wuerffel was 16 of 25 passing for 269 yards and three touchdowns. I suppose if he'd gotten injured after that, you'd be arguing that he's the answer at QB. Don't read too much into one preseason game -- especially one that was so lopsided that it made Rosenfels and Wuerffel look like Montana and Young."

I'm not talking about the Osaka Bowl at all. The "starting" line played nine plays against some starting Niners. The Osaka Bowl is largely not even on my radar when I consider the preseason.

Jones played at left guard against Carolina for a half, largely against Carolina starters. He dominated. Samuels got hurt late in the half and Jones was moved to starter at left tackle for Pittsburgh. Jones didn't dominate, but he had a very good game. Yes, he gave up a sack. And, as witnessed and broken down here Jones gave plenty of time even on that play. But, no matter. I'm the guy who actually bothered to closely watch every play by the offensive line while Jones was in, and I'm going to trust me, more than you. So should you.

"And that second "very good" preseason game at tackle, the one where he gave up a sack against Pittsburgh, weren't you saying it was a "very strong" performance just a second ago? Next it'll be a "pretty good" performance, right? "

The difference is what? Very good. Very strong. Very capable. All may be used and generally mean the same thing. Pretty is a bit less than very, but, I'd even concede it was pretty good instead of very good. Jones was overweight for left tackle and did a very good, pretty good, very strong, very capable, pretty strong, whatever, job, against Pittsburgh.

"Blah, blah, blah. Art, Jones did look good in Osaka -- but what did that prove?"

Madd, Jones neither looked good nor bad in Osaka as far as I know, can tell, or care, so it proved nothing.

"To me, it proves nothing. That game, as the season bore out, was an aberration. The 49ers didn't show up to play. I haven't "fictionalized" anything. Let me read you a quote from that game: "Wuerffel played the second half and looked impressive, leading four scoring drives in four possessions and making two creative plays: a spin-move toss to Robert Gillespie to avoid a sack and a jump-pass to Ladell Betts." Now you tell me: is that the same Wuerffel we saw in the regular season? And if not, how can you argue that Jones' one good performance in Osaka proves anything?"

We're not talking about Osaka, Madd. We're talking about Carolina. So, how you've fictionalized things is attempting to cull together a point that states Jones didn't play well against Carolina. In fact, he absolutely destroyed Carolina. He was so good against Carolina that had he maintained that level of play ALL year, he'd have been the best guard in football. That was, obviously, unlikely. But, all you could take from that game was just how good Jones was.

I've never argued that Jones' dominating performance against Carolina meant anything at all. I said if he happened to be capable of holding down that spot given just how well he held it down in his one performance extending serious playing time at the spot with us, then we've no worries at guard. And, as I've continually written, I prefer to think of Jones as the primary backup at three of five line spots instead of being forced, as our only and best option to start. But, if that did happen, I'd be comfortable with it because the only experience we've seen of Jones at left guard was very fine play. Until we have anything else, there's no need to make up statements about how he played when they simply aren't factual in nature.

[MRMADD]

Sonny J:

You don't know the situation, either. You're purely jumping to a conclusion.

No, I've repeatedly said that I've concluded nothing. I just don't expect anything from him. I haven't written him off.

I have, however, provided evidence from lots of sources that indicate (1) he arrived overweight -- way overweight -- which is not explained by Art's "we asked him to be fat" explanation. Art, of course, didn't bother to support this assertion with any facts. (2) he struggled when we moved him to guard. Again, I provided supporting quotes, you guys provided nothing but your "he had one good preseason game!" stuff, and (3) he's injured!

If you've got one reporter for USA Today saying that he'll be released, you can't just say, "Well, Maske hasn't said anything about it!"

If you guys really think he's back in shape, prove it. Post anything that says so. If you think he's a competent guard, prove it. Post anything that says so. If you think his one good preseason game means something, prove it.

You can't just discount every reporter other than Maske and jump to your own conclusions.

I don't think anyone knows what we've got in Jones. Is he recovered? Could he learn to play guard if he got in shape? We don't know. But it's awfully risky to assume he's gonna be a good guard for us before we know those things.

[rdsknbill]

Originally posted by THiTo11

the lengths of these posts seem to have greatly increased :laugh:

No doubt! Sheesh Talk about diarhea of the fingers.

:doh:

[thito_da_skins_fan]

Originally posted by rdsknbill

No doubt! Sheesh Talk about diarhea of the fingers.

:doh:

inflammation of the eyes :twitch:

[SonnyJ]

I don't claim to know the situation at all. I just don't think he is someone to be readily dismissed, either.

And I'm still highly skeptical of any knowledge this guy from USA Today has. I think he just culled some info he got from somebody else and reached his own conclusion.

[GURU]

MRMADD, I understand your disagreement with Art, but be careful.

One does not have to rely soley on media reports to make player evaluations. That exemplifies a certain mindlessness. Media reports are not "proof" of anything, other than the fact you can spend lots of time surfing the net.

If you've been participating in this forum for a long time, you would know that Art has been going against the grain a bit when it came to evaluating Jones. He said, back in training camp and preseason, that Jones was playing better in the preseason games than many reports gave him credit for.

To support his arguement, he didn't simply quote other media sources. He actually watched game tapes and broke down every offensive play and reported Jones' peformance on EACH play. It was a persuasive argument and swayed many an opinion in this forum.

So MRMADD, if anything, I'd say Art can probably better evaluate Jones' performance than anyone else on this board. Maybe the coaches can better evaluate him, but they never really said anything other than that Jones struggled with some of his assignments at guard. I don't remember any coaches saying he was out of shape. They did say he was perfectly capable of getting the job done, however, but he needed more work. But I doubt any of the beat writers or national writers went to the trouble of analyzing Jones on every offensive play in the preseason. I defer to Art in this case. Maybe you should reconsider some of your statements.

Like Art, I often disagree with player evaluations and game reports given by many media writers, especially Paul Woody. Sometimes, I think he is watching different games than I am. Then, of course, many writer's disagree with each other, too. But that's all part of the fun.

So, anyway, I don't think anyone can "prove" anything at all about Jones by simply posting media reports.

[Art]

Madd,

Jones did come to camp carrying extra weight. No one is disputing that. He added weight to handle the rigors of playing the interior line. He said so. When Samuels went down he even commented on how he was a little too heavy for left tackle because he was preparing for guard. He was playing at 355, up about 30 pounds from his normal playing weight because he was asked to play inside and carry the extra weight when we signed him.

We're not saying anything different except you are saying he just didn't care, and decided to show up heavy for no reason whatsoever, and I'm saying he cared enough to add weight so he could make the projected move to guard more easily and that it would have been stupid to think he was going to try to play on the inside at the same playing weight he would play on the outside.

Likewise, no one is disputing he struggled at right guard. I wondered why he was even tried there in the first place for us. No one has said he was struggling at all at left guard. And, in fact, he played great at left guard for us in very limited action at the position. He got hurt playing left tackle because not only was he the best guard we had, but he was also the best tackle we had when Samuels went out. It's really not all that complex.

You've just decided to take factual statements and color them beyond the scope of what they mean. Jones was heavier than he was for the Rams, because he was playing a position that the extra weight is beneficial here and he wasn't there. Jones did struggle at right guard and Helton quickly identified that and moved him to the spot he probably should have always been projected to play here, and that was left guard, where there was no information whatsoever stating he was struggling.

Camp started on July 22. On July 23 Helton started speaking out about how Jones, and the other guards, hadn't proven they were starters for the team. Jones was at right tackle on July 22, July 23 and July 24. On July 25 he was moved to left guard where he remained until he had to fill in for Samuels. Every single subsequent comment about Jones and his transistion to the interior stems from those first three days and the honest assessment offered by Helton of how he was doing at right guard.

No one is disputing he didn't do well there. What is clear is he did very well in limited time at left guard, which is two different positions in case you weren't sure.