Frameshop: A Picture of the GOP on Civil Rights

[PeterMP]

Back for more?

What the **** are you talking about? I've consistently asked for just one example to support your ridiculous propaganda.

I'm open and willing to consider, suggest and debate anything, as long as you can show me an actual real life example. Otherwise, have a nice cup....

Well, you've seen the link posted by H-H. I will give you your words though:

"Of course there is discrimination in the workplace, as it generally mirrors society. "

There is discrimination in the workplace. That is illegal. What should be done about it?

[Mooney]

Blah, blah, blah, "believe me because I say so" blah blah blah.

Does progress in the black community run counter to your personal agenda?

[Mooney]

I will give you your words though:

"Of course there is discrimination in the workplace, as it generally mirrors society. "

There is discrimination in the workplace. That is illegal. What should be done about it?

This discussion is about someone passing off as fact that blacks currently make 75% of their white counterparts, in the same exact job.

What should be done about discrimination in the workplace? Prosecution to the full extent of the law. Nothing less.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Does progress in the black community run counter to your personal agenda?

LOL, you've obviously mistaken the progress for the destination. BTW, I'm not the one's who's personal agenda runs counter to the evidence that blacks and women are still routinely paid less.

[PeterMP]

This discussion is about someone passing off as fact that blacks currently make 75% of their white counterparts, in the same exact job.

What should be done about discrimination in the workplace? Prosecution to the full extent of the law. Nothing less.

Okay. I agree, but that isn't being done. Well, I guess you could argue that is, but discrimination is the only place where the victim has to identify the criminal and then bring it to the attention of the authorities. Shouldn't the federal goverment actively seek out people that are committing such crimes, like they do essentially w/ every other crime?

[UncleBen]

I'll go ahead and disagree with everyone here: I don't believe in laws against discrimination. I realize this will be extremely unpopular, but I believe in absolute freedom. If I don't want to hire you because of something as stupid as your skin color, that's my prerogative. If I don't want to pick you up in my taxi, again my prerogative. If I don't want to rent you my property, my prerogative.

[PeterMP]

I'll go ahead and disagree with everyone here: I don't believe in laws against discrimination. I realize this will be extremely unpopular, but I believe in absolute freedom. If I don't want to hire you because of something as stupid as your skin color, that's my prerogative. If I don't want to pick you up in my taxi, again my prerogative. If I don't want to rent you my property, my prerogative.

That's a fine belief, but absolute freedom is against the Constitution itself on many different levels.

[Mooney]

LOL, you've obviously mistaken the progress for the destination.

Show me one instance where I have. If you're going to continue to preach bald face lies as reality, I am going to continue to call you on it.

BTW, I'm not the one's who's personal agenda runs counter to the evidence that blacks and women are still routinely paid less.

My agenda is the truth, as much as that pains you. If there is all this evidence, pretty please with sugar on top, show me any example. Enlighten me. Or admit that you use false statistics to bolster your agenda.

[Mooney]

Okay. I agree, but that isn't being done.

Who are these victims? Which company is discriminating against blacks by 25%? In this day of 24hr news-cycles, why hasn't their story been told? Revs. Jesse and Al would be having a field day. Hillary would have her accent in full mode.

Well, I guess you could argue that is, but discrimination is the only place where the victim has to identify the criminal and then bring it to the attention of the authorities.

Any employee that is being discriminated against by 25% because of their race can easily contact thier HR Dept., local news, national news, the feds, etc..... And people don't play when it comes to their money.

Shouldn't the federal goverment actively seek out people that are committing such crimes, like they do essentially w/ every other crime?

That's a completely different argument. If they can show that any employee is being discriminated against due to his/her race, then yes. Prosecute.

[PeterMP]

But you are stuck on a number. If discrimination is illegeal what difference does it make if it is 100% or 1%? The law should be enforced as you've said, but that practially isn't being done.

[twa]

But you are stuck on a number. If discrimination is illegeal what difference does it make if it is 100% or 1%? The law should be enforced as you've said, but that practially isn't being done.

Perhaps the Dems should have a congressional oversight hearing on it?

No wait, too busy to bother with a issue affecting a large part of their base.

[Duncan]

When will your KKK sheets be returned from the cleaners?:mad:

When will your KKK sheets be returned from the cleaners?:mad:

:yawnee:

That's a pretty bold statement for someone who pulls out the race card half the time you post. It's pretty clear you are obsessed with race and that's a shame.

KKK sheet? Could you be any more pathetic?

[Mooney]

But you are stuck on a number. If discrimination is illegeal what difference does it make if it is 100% or 1%? The law should be enforced as you've said, but that practially isn't being done.

You are damned right I'm stuck on a number. It's a big number, and an intentional lie. I can't stand liars.

That false number is consistently used in that posters arguments, and many obviously take it as gospel. Yet nobody can provide even a single example.

How many other big lies are being told to bolster either sides arguments? As an educated adult, do you believe everything you read, without question of motive? Personally, I always follow the money.

How do you know that the law isn't being enforced? Have you heard a huge outcry regarding wage disparity from anyone recently? I haven't, other than dated "studies" performed by academia with an agenda and who wouldn't have the first clue how to earn a living outside the secluded confines of their universities.

[PeterMP]

How do you know that the law isn't being enforced? Have you heard a huge outcry regarding wage disparity from anyone recently? I haven't, other than dated "studies" performed by academia with an agenda and who wouldn't have the first clue how to earn a living outside the secluded confines of their universities.

I know that every recent case of work place discrimination that has been brought to court recently was done so as the result of complaining from the person being discriminted. I know the goverment on its own would have never identified a single discrimination case. I know once the goverment gets involved, they frequently claim that the law has been being broken for a number of years (e.g. since 1999 in the link that H_H supplied, but they are just prosecuting in 2007). I know I don't hear a huge outcry from the public about people not paying taxes, but the IRS is still out there vigorously trying to identify people breaking the laws. I know that I didn't hear a large out cry from the public about what Martha Stewart did, but the SEC is still out there investigating and looking for people involved in illegeal trading, and if they find somebody, they will prosecute. I know there are multiple cases where there is no cry from the public, but the EPA still regularly inspects, investigates, and fines when they find somebody guilty.

I also know you've admitted that work place discrimination exist. Why is it okay for companies to break the law w/o the goverment really doing anything, but for most similar things the goverment has a mechanism to actively investigate and identify criminals, but for discrimination they don't?

[headexplode]

You are damned right I'm stuck on a number. It's a big number, and an intentional lie. I can't stand liars.

That false number is consistently used in that posters arguments, and many obviously take it as gospel. Yet nobody can provide even a single example.

How many other big lies are being told to bolster either sides arguments? As an educated adult, do you believe everything you read, without question of motive? Personally, I always follow the money.

How do you know that the law isn't being enforced? Have you heard a huge outcry regarding wage disparity from anyone recently? I haven't, other than dated "studies" performed by academia with an agenda and who wouldn't have the first clue how to earn a living outside the secluded confines of their universities.

Here's a good place to start for your statistics:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook2006.htm

One of the reports on this page has women's median weekly salary at 81 percent of men's. You can read the rest of the reports for more information.

[Kilmer17]

Here's a good place to start for your statistics:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook2006.htm

One of the reports on this page has women's median weekly salary at 81 percent of men's. You can read the rest of the reports for more information.

Without breaking down the actual jobs, statistics like these are completely meaningless for this debate.

Woman CHOOSE to be the overwhelming majority in lower paying fields like nursing and teaching. Job descrepancy skews these kind of tables.

Has anyone shown an actual example of a minority or woman working the exact same job, with exact same qualifications and history, and been paid less than a white man?

[Mooney]

I also know you've admitted that work place discrimination exist. Why is it okay for companies to break the law w/o the goverment really doing anything, but for most similar things the goverment has a mechanism to actively investigate and identify criminals, but for discrimination they don't?

It's just not sinking in with you. Yes, there is discrimination all over the place, etc. etc. etc.

This whole discussion is about one poster repeatedly using a dated study that claims that a black person makes 75% of his/her white counterpart.

All I asked for was one current example, exact same job so we're apples to apples, out of the thousands of jobs and industries in the USA. Just one.

As it stands, his claim is a lie. And it's disturbing that you and others take any information presented to you at face value, without question. Bunch of lemmings.

[Mooney]

Without breaking down the actual jobs, statistics like these are completely meaningless for this debate.

Has anyone shown an actual example of a minority or woman working the exact same job, with exact same qualifications and history, and been paid less than a white man?

Thank you Baby Jesus and Tom Cruise. Someone can read and comprehend.

I feel like I've been taking crazy pills.

[LOOPSKIN28]

And the NAACP has been gracious hosts all these years for repubs, gee, I can't believe they found better things to do than go to the National Association Against Caucasion People.

Maybe if they thought it was the National Association for the Advancement of Caucasion People they would all show up.

[PeterMP]

It's just not sinking in with you. Yes, there is discrimination all over the place, etc. etc. etc.

This whole discussion is about one poster repeatedly using a dated study that claims that a black person makes 75% of his/her white counterpart.

All I asked for was one current example, exact same job so we're apples to apples, out of the thousands of jobs and industries in the USA. Just one.

As it stands, his claim is a lie. And it's disturbing that you and others take any information presented to you at face value, without question. Bunch of lemmings.

No, the discussion is about why only one Republican showed up to have a conversation at the NAACP convention. You seem to be stuck on that point.

[Mooney]

No, the discussion is about why only one Republican showed up to have a conversation at the NAACP convention. You seem to be stuck on that point.

During which one of your brethren used a flat out lie to support his position.

And now his bull**** has been exposed.

[PeterMP]

During which one of your brethren used a flat out lie to support his position.

And now his bull**** has been exposed.

Yes, but you have confirmed the more important point. Work place discrimination still exist.

[headexplode]

Without breaking down the actual jobs, statistics like these are completely meaningless for this debate.

Woman CHOOSE to be the overwhelming majority in lower paying fields like nursing and teaching. Job descrepancy skews these kind of tables.

Has anyone shown an actual example of a minority or woman working the exact same job, with exact same qualifications and history, and been paid less than a white man?

These cases are probably not very common. Most likely because people tend to keep their salary information private. I know at my work most tend not to say how much they really make (plus it's nearly impossible to know when someone is being honest about their salary). Even if you may suspect that someone is making more than you for the same work because of their sex, proving it in a legal court would be something extremely difficult to do.

And one example will not change your mind about anything. If I offered you fifty examples you would still believe what you believe.

Just like the statistics I showed you mean something very different to you than what they mean to me. I won't change my mind, either. That's the great comedy of these debates. It's all a matter of perception.

[Mooney]

Most likely because people tend to keep their salary information private. I know at my work most tend not to say how much they really make (plus it's nearly impossible to know when someone is being honest about their salary).

I'm currently administering performance reviews for all my employees, sales and operations, over 50 people. They all know what the other person in the same exact job is making. They talk. Thats reality.

Even if you may suspect that someone is making more than you for the same work because of their sex, proving it in a legal court would be something extremely difficult to do.

Huh? It would be extremely easy to prove someones salary.

And one example will not change your mind about anything. If I offered you fifty examples you would still believe what you believe.

Just one, real life example might change some minds, out of the thousands of jobs and industries in this country. Because nobody has been able to provide one, maybe the claim that blacks make 25% less than whites in the same exact job, is exaggerated?

Just like the statistics I showed you mean something very different to you than what they mean to me. I won't change my mind, either.

In the face of actual facts, that's pretty closeminded of you.

That's the great comedy of these debates. It's all a matter of perception.

Perception can be altered through the use of false propaganda, as it has in this situation.

[headexplode]

I don't know a single coworkers' salary--we've been working together for over four years. In fact, i don't know most of their spouse's names or any other personal information. We're professional colleagues--beyond that what they make is their business. Perhaps people do talk about that stuff--but I don't and no one I work with has brought it up to me.

Proving that an employer deliberately pays you less for the same job as your counterpart from another sex is difficult. For instance, I work with a woman who has the same job title as me--and I know she is making less than me. I don't know how much she makes, but I know she's not reached my level. It's not because she's female, but it's because she is less experienced. Even if it were true that she was being deliberately cheated, she would have a hard time proving it in court.

What facts are you talking about? You've offered no facts. You just say over and over that you are looking for one real-life example of this happening. You've offered no proof that they aren't discriminated against. I at least offered some statistical information (which I hate doing, since I generally believe statistics are easily manipulated). I was explaining why there might not be many examples available. One example is not proof of some endemic condition just like the lack of your real-world example is not proof that descrimination doesn't exist. Just because it's not in the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

People who feel they are educated and privy to insight are the most susceptible to propaganda. Or, those who feel they know what "true" and "false" propaganda is are more likely to succumb to propaganda itself (either true or false, or, like most cases, both).

This is an issue that's hard to prove either way. I would say that discrimination certainly exists today--I can't give you a percentage or offer you striking real-life examples--it's just something you have to observe over a period of time professionally and personally. I know discrimination exists because I've seen it and I've know people affected by it. Those who break their necks trying to dispute that fact are either guilty of it themselves, don't want it to be true, or they just aren't paying attention. You're caught on a specific number, but as you probably know, at least 67% of statistics are made up on the spot.