Presidential debate on Why do they hate us?

[TSO]

But Who Was Right -

Rudy Giuliani or Paul Ron?

A decisive moment of the South Carolina debate.

Hearing Rep. Ron Paul recite the reasons for Arab and Islamic resentment of the United States, including 10 years of bombing and sanctions that brought death to thousands of Iraqis after the Gulf War, Rudy Giuliani broke format and exploded:

"That's really an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of 9/11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don't think I have ever heard that before, and I have heard some pretty absurd explanations for Sept. 11.

"I would ask the congressman to withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn't really mean that."

The applause for Rudy's rebuke was thunderous - the soundbite of the night and best moment of Rudy's campaign.

After the debate, on Fox News' "Hannity and Colmes," came one of those delicious moments on live television. As Michael Steele, GOP spokesman, was saying that Paul should probably be cut out of future debates, the running tally of votes by Fox News viewers was showing Ron Paul, with 30 percent, the winner of the debate.

Brother Hannity seemed startled and perplexed by the votes being text-messaged in the thousands to Fox News saying Paul won, Romney was second, Rudy third and McCain far down the track at 4 percent.

When Ron Paul said the 9/11 killers were "over here because we are over there," he was not excusing the mass murderers of 3,000 Americans. He was explaining the roots of hatred out of which the suicide-killers came.

Lest we forget, Osama bin Laden was among the mujahideen whom we, in the Reagan decade, were aiding when they were fighting to expel the Red Army from Afghanistan. We sent them Stinger missiles, Spanish mortars, sniper rifles. And they helped drive the Russians out.

What Ron Paul was addressing was the question of what turned the allies we aided into haters of the United States. Was it the fact that they discovered we have freedom of speech or separation of church and state? Do they hate us because of who we are? Or do they hate us because of what we do?

Osama bin Laden in his declaration of war in the 1990s said it was U.S. troops on the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia, U.S. bombing and sanctions of a crushed Iraqi people, and U.S. support of Israel's persecution of the Palestinians that were the reasons he and his mujahideen were declaring war on us.

Elsewhere, he has mentioned Sykes-Picot, the secret British-French deal that double-crossed the Arabs who had fought for their freedom alongside Lawrence of Arabia and were rewarded with a quarter century of British-French imperial domination and humiliation.

Almost all agree that, horrible as 9/11 was, it was not anarchic terror. It was political terror, done with a political motive and a political objective.

What does Rudy Giuliani think the political motive was for 9/11?

Was it because we are good and they are evil? Is it because they hate our freedom? Is it that simple?

Ron Paul says Osama bin Laden is delighted we invaded Iraq.

Does the man not have a point? The United States is now tied down in a bloody guerrilla war in the Middle East and increasingly hated in Arab and Islamic countries where we were once hugely admired as the first and greatest of the anti-colonial nations. Does anyone think that Osama is unhappy with what is happening to us in Iraq?

Of the 10 candidates on stage in South Carolina, Dr. Paul alone opposed the war. He alone voted against the war. Have not the last five years vindicated him, when two-thirds of the nation now agrees with him that the war was a mistake, and journalists and politicians left and right are babbling in confession, "If I had only known then what I know now ..."

Rudy implied that Ron Paul was unpatriotic to suggest the violence against us out of the Middle East may be in reaction to U.S. policy in the Middle East. Was President Hoover unpatriotic when, the day after Pearl Harbor, he wrote to friends, "You and I know that this continuous putting pins in rattlesnakes finally got this country bitten."

Pearl Harbor came out of the blue, but it also came out of the troubled history of U.S.-Japanese relations going back 40 years. Hitler's attack on Poland was naked aggression. But to understand it, we must understand what was done at Versailles - after the Germans laid down their arms based on Wilson's 14 Points. We do not excuse - but we must understand.

Ron Paul is no TV debater. But up on that stage in Columbia, he was speaking intolerable truths. Understandably, Republicans do not want him back, telling the country how the party blundered into this misbegotten war.

By all means, throw out of the debate the only man who was right from the beginning on Iraq.

Pat Buchanan has been an advisor to three presidents and has thrice sought the office. A founding panelist of four political television shows, he currently hosts MSNBC's daily news program, "Buchanan & Press" and appears on "The McLaughlin Group." He writes a nationally syndicated newspaper column and is the author of six books including the recent bestseller, The Death of the West, which sold over 200,000 copies. In 2002 Pat Buchanan founded The American Conservative with Scott McConnell and Taki Theodoracopulos

[Teller]

Wow. I was shocked to get to the end and find out this was written by Pat Buchanan. I could see most liberals agreeing with his position, provided they too didn't realize who the writer was beforehand.

Meanwhile, I understand his point. U.S. foreign policy is not now, nor has it ever been without its flaws. However, I would assert for the record that in a little over 200 years, we have created the economic and militaristic might to be the primary agent for change in this world; and we usually get it right.

I am refreshed by Rudy Giuliani's bluntness. Whether you view it as a Bush slogan, pointless rhetoric, or the real deal, we ARE at war with radical Islamic terrorists. They declared war on us, and they struck the first blow in THIS war. (Prior to 9/11 we just kind of gave them the wink-and-nod, knowing that if they hijacked a plane, it would land in Beirut, where eventually everyone would be released.)

We must seek terrorists out in any and every land, and crush them with a lack of mercy reminicent of the Death Star's visit to Alderan. And you know what? If protecting my country results in more people that wish to do me harm. Fine. This Death Star doesn't have exhaust-port self-destruct button. (Well, it does. But seriously, misguided public opinion couldn't really bring us down from the inside, could it? COULD IT?!?!?!)

On the other hand, you have to respect a man who was IN congress, voted against the war, and got it right from the beginning. Ron Paul has my respect for his foresight in that regard, without doubt. However, empathy for our ENEMY can't be helpful in these dangerous times. And by enemy, I don't mean the average Iraqi, or the average Iranian. I mean those who use Islam to justify the murder of "infidels" anytime, anywhere.

I'm not sure either of these guys (Giuliani or Paul) are who I want leading us into the future, but it's good to see their hearts are in the right place. (Even if those are different places entirely.)

[#98QBKiller]

Wow. I was shocked to get to the end and find out this was written by Pat Buchanan.

I was too and I can't stand Pat Buchanan, but when you're right, you're right no matter who you are. Candidates like Ron Paul and Barack Obama bring a sigh of relief to weary voters because people from both sides can identify with some of their ideas IMO. Unfortunately, the masses will still nominate people like Mccain, Giuliani and Clinton.

[Teller]

I was too and I can't stand Pat Buchanan, but when you're right, you're right no matter who you are. Candidates like Ron Paul and Barack Obama bring a sigh of relief to weary voters because people from both sides can identify with some of their ideas IMO. Unfortunately, the masses will still nominate people like Mccain, Giuliani and Clinton.

Hell, I'm as far right as anyone I know, and I can't stand Buchanan. This is a good piece though. Informative, and as unbiased as I've seen him write.

I have to admit, I'm a little scared. Y'know, cue-the-giant-meteor style, Buchanan wrote something rational. :laugh:

[dreamingwolf]

theres a big difference between writing to friends, and a national debate when it comes to forums. Politics trump all though.

[Ken]

Nice piece.

Surprised by the source as well.

This article is a sensable one that does not have an agenda. I don't know why this kind of lucid rationale can't be the norm.

[Fergasun]

I think there's quite a few people on the right who are sick of the Iraq war and don't care about winning, but see it a big waste of money. I'm not at that point, but I definately see where they are coming from. These people might say the Iraqi's haven't done enough to stand up and fight for their country, and that domestic issues like immigration and the economy are where our government should be focused.

Of course in right leaning circles they would be derived as "Not living in a post 9-1-1 world... on that day everything changed...".

I'm sick of hearing about "We are living in a post 9-1-1 world"... am I even allowed to say that?

[GibbsFactor]

Another guy surprised at who wrote this piece.

Rudi lost a lot of my respect when he opposed what Paul said. It's the damn truth even if it undermines US policy. What he said is exactly what they say. Agree or disagree with us being over there, you have to acknowledge that's why we are at war with terrorists. They say it time and time again. Does this mean we give up and walk away? Perhaps not, that's waving the white flag. However, the question was why we were attacked and Rudi looked like a fool with his answer, or lack of one.

[CurseReversed]

Funny how I always here people talk about how happy osama is that we are in iraq and afghanistan and how we are playing right into his hands. When in fact the truth is quite the opposite. Osama was not only surprised, but completely shocked when we invaded afghanistan and kicked him and the taliban out in hearbeat. Believe it or not he actually thought he was safe there and that he and the taliban could have fought us off like they did to the russians in the 80's. Sure he might be adjusting his strategies and playing to the current state of affairs in his ongoing jihaad but belive me he is not happy that he has to live in some hole in pakistan for the rest of his life, and that afghanistan is no longer under the bootheel of his beloved taliban regime. Nor is he happy that we are in iraq trying to spread freedom and democracy to the people of the middle east.

Ask yourself if he is so happy with the U.S. being in Iraq, then why does his al-qaeda cells there do everthing in their power including killing their own people to start a civil war, to try and drive us out. What level of desperation would cause them to bomb a mosque dedicated to their own religion. The answer is the kind of desperation of a man and a group who is on the run and facing a future in the middle east that to them is un-thinkable. Unfortunately in their desperation they have initiated a strategy and series of events which thanks to the world media, u.s. partisan bias, and gross missteps in war planning, has been extremely successful. And now what was a crushing defeat to their ideology and goals both in afghanistan and iraq is slowely turning towards opportunity for them.

But dont for a second think that they want us in Iraq, they want us OUT of iraq, and fast. I just hope we arent stupid enough to give them what they want

[EersSkins05]

I simply can't believe that people are actually looking at the Giuliani quote as a strong point of his campaign.

To me, that's his death knell.

He's been perceived as the guy running solely on his 9/11 connection, and he doesn't even know why we were attacked.

Ron Paul does, and so do I. You know why? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID THEY BOMBED US FOR.

lol

[Teller]

I simply can't believe that people are actually looking at the Giuliani quote as a strong point of his campaign.

To me, that's his death knell.

He's been perceived as the guy running solely on his 9/11 connection, and he doesn't even know why we were attacked.

Ron Paul does, and so do I. You know why? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID THEY BOMBED US FOR.

lol

Really. Sooo...You expect me to believe that we pull out of the ME 100%, and you guarantee me that we never get attacked again because Osama said so? :laugh:

Monty, I'm going to need to see what's behind door number two.

[CurseReversed]

yea I'm sure serial killers have their reasons too, I gues its not their fault either.

[EersSkins05]

Really. Sooo...You expect me to believe that we pull out of the ME 100%, and you guarantee me that we never get attacked again because Osama said so? :laugh:

Monty, I'm going to need to see what's behind door number two.

Smarmy responses aside, why do you think it was? That he hates our freedom? lol

[Teller]

Smarmy responses aside, why do you think it was? That he hates our freedom? lol

In all seriousness, they've used Islam to justify conversion or death. They've chosen death for the great Satan/all of us infidels, because they know we'll each cram a Mossberg 12-gauge up their ass before being forced to do anything by a dirtbag terrorist. But it's funny how ****y they get when it's 10 armed ****es, and one dip-**** with a sword, against one unarmed American. Then, it's all about trying to force a conversion, right?

So, my short answer is, it's about killing all the infidels. And I know that, of course, because OBL told me THAT too! :laugh:

[EersSkins05]

In all seriousness, they've used Islam to justify conversion or death. They've chosen death for the great Satan/all of us infidels, because they know we'll each cram a Mossberg 12-gauge up their ass before being forced to do anything by a dirtbag terrorist.

Ah, you ALMOST had it. You were right up until the last comma.

The question is WHY we're the "Great Satan" and why other much more liberal and free countries avoid these attacks while we suffer.

And it's got nothing to do with our ability to resist conversion by means of munitions. :2cents:

(It does, however, mostly relate to Israel. Which Ron Paul was saying. Which made him right.)

[AsburySkinsFan]

I have to say that I too am surprised that Pat wrote this piece, and for the first time I have to say that I agree with him. (whew that's tough to say.)

IMO the sooner we realize that Pat and Ron Paul speak the truth the sooner we can start owning our mistakes, and begin making moves to correct them now and in the future. And as such may we also realize that speaking criticism of our policies is not unpatriotic, and unAmerican, but instead may be in the best spirit of America.

[CurseReversed]

The fact is that this is a world where there will always be insane, evil, tyrannical, immoral, and irrational men who are always willing to devote their life to accomplishing whatever goals they set out to accomplish. You could ask yourself why stalin treated his people the way he did, or why hitler chose his path, or why pol pot did his dirty work, or even why saddam and his sons brought sadism and torture to an art form in their country. Believe me they all have reasons, but they are all BS, fact is that they have to be faced and brought down by any means necessary. I think Hitler viewed the Jews as the great satan too come to think of it, i am sure he had his reasons, just read his book....

Its like were a kid who has been abused who still feels guilty because we think its our fault. Robin williams: "Its not your fault, Its not your fault" Now go cry and get over it

[dreamingwolf]

Ah, you ALMOST had it. You were right up until the last comma.

The question is WHY we're the "Great Satan" and why other much more liberal and free countries avoid these attacks while we suffer.

And it's got nothing to do with our ability to resist conversion by means of munitions. :2cents:

(It does, however, mostly relate to Israel. Which Ron Paul was saying. Which made him right.)

which ones avoid it? They all get it from them one way or another, maybe not the swiss but every country has big problems with muslims. Ours was the biggest, but we are the only ones who can eliminate them so they probably thought(correctly I might add by your stance) that if they hit us they could back us off.

Im not an advocate for removing that religion, but I am an advocate for making that religion become accountable for its crazies. Lets learn from our history of religous crazies in the world.

[Teller]

Ah, you ALMOST had it. You were right up until the last comma.

The question is WHY we're the "Great Satan" and why other much more liberal and free countries avoid these attacks while we suffer.

And it's got nothing to do with our ability to resist conversion by means of munitions. :2cents:

(It does, however, mostly relate to Israel. Which Ron Paul was saying. Which made him right.)

Hmm...You mean like France? Nope, Muslim kids rioting in the streets, burning cars and shooting cops there. You mean like Spain? Nope, 190 killed in a train bombing there. You mean like England? Nope. Train/bus bombings there.

[dreamingwolf]

Hmm...You mean like France? Nope, Muslim kids rioting in the streets, burning cars and shooting cops there. You mean like Spain? Nope, 190 killed in a train bombing there. You mean like England? Nope. Train/bus bombings there.

it doesnt stop at Europe, but its not PC to discuss it and Im not sure why?

[Teller]

it doesnt stop at Europe, but its not PC to discuss it and Im not sure why?

Ummm...Muslims blowing up mosques in Iraq?

[twa]

The libs and anti-war supporters would be screaming bloody murder if RP actually could have his way for four years. :laugh:

If I thought he could actually accomplish anything with that cesspool we call Congress he would have my vote.

But, Why do they hate us?

Because of what we are,and have been,and possibly will continue to be.

You can leave politics outside because their hate is for all of us.

I

[dreamingwolf]

Ummm...Muslims blowing up mosques in Iraq?

these religous zealots are commiting violence on every continent, save antartica for now, and we refuse to address them as a group. Well some of us do but we get called racists, or some other nonsense. Across the globe, they are trying to annex land and create religous states. As a godless Republican Im stunned by the support our atheist countrymen put in them.

[Teller]

these religous zealots are commiting violence on every continent, save antartica for now, and we refuse to address them as a group. Well some of us do but we get called racists, or some other nonsense. Across the globe, they are trying to annex land and create religous states. As a godless Republican Im stunned by the support our atheist countrymen put in them.

Yeah. I don't know anything about being called a racist. :laugh:

[luckydevil]

I am surprised that people are surprised that Pat Buchanan wrote the peice.