Portis trade Confessions

[SnyderMustGo]

Since off-season is about bets, here is one for all you "he is a top 5 back" people:

Bet:

Portis does not finish in the top 5 in yards or TDs among running backs.

Wager:

If Portis does, I put in my sig line: "I was wrong about Portis, we should never trade him."

If Portis does not, you put in your sig line: "I was wrong about Portis, trading him should be an option explored by this team."

[monkforhall]

Since off-season is about bets, here is one for all you "he is a top 5 back" people:

Bet:

Portis does not finish in the top 5 in yards or TDs among running backs.

Wager:

If Portis does, I put in my sig line: "I was wrong about Portis, we should never trade him."

If Portis does not, you put in your sig line: "I was wrong about Portis, trading him should be an option explored by this team."

From reading most of your posts, it seems you would like a Cowboy avatar anyway.

[909997]

And how many of those "lesser" players do you think were thrilled when Betts came in off the bench, and proceeded to run for a higher YPC average than Portis EVER has as a Redskin? Even though Portis has had the majority of real game and practice snaps over the last few years.

Ladainian tomlinson

2004 3.9 ypc

2005 4.3 ypc

2006 5.2 ypc

Micheal Turner

2004 5.2 ypc

2005 5.9 ypc

2006 6.3 ypc

turner>tomlinson if we go by ur logic

[ThomasRoane]

Say 50 Hail Redskins and 50 Dallas sucks and you'll be forgiven

[SnyderMustGo]

if portis is a system back why cant denver replace him?

last 3 years denver RB's

2004 reuben dhroughns 1240 4.4 ypc

2005 mike anderson 1014 4.2 ypc

2006 tatum bell 1025 4.4 ypc

compare that to portis's 5.5 ypc in denver

You don't need to compare him to other people and other circumstances to see he is a system back.

Compare him to himself:

2002 Den 273 carries for 1578 yards, 5.5 ypc 15 TDs

2003 Den 290 carries for 1591 yards, 5.5 ypc 14 TDs

2004 Was 343 carries for 1315 yards, 3.8 ypc 5 TDs

2005 Was 352 carries for 1516 yards, 4.3 ypc 11 TDs

2006 Was 127 carries for 523 yards, 4.1 ypc 7 TDs

Look at the change from 2003 to 2004.

His carries jumped by 50 carries and his yards fell by 280 yards. His TDs fell from 14-5. The next season he carries it even more times, and he still couldn't match his production in Denver.

Average ypc in Denver: 5.5

Average ypc in Washington: 4.08

Average carry/TD carry in Denver: 19.4

Average carry/TD in Washington: 36.2

Denver: 563 carries, 29 TDs

Washington: 822 carries, 23 TDs.

Notice a drastic fall in production?

[elkabong82]

Lol at you calling Shaun Alexander a "system back" in defense of Portis. Portis is the definition of a system back: great in Denver, merely good in Washington.

One more time.

Refute these facts please:

2004-2006 Production

1. T. Baber 5,040 yds; 27 TDs

2. Tomlinson 4,612 yds; 63 TDs

3. S. Alexander 4,472 yds; 50 TDs

4. L. Johnson 4,120 yds; 46 TDs

5. R. Johnson 4,221 yds; 36 TDs

6. E. James 4,213 yds; 28 TDs

7. W. Dunn 3,662 yds; 16 TDs

8. T. Jones 3,493 yds; 22 TDs

9. W. McGahee 3,365 yds; 24 TDs

10. S. Jackson 3,347 yds; 25 TDs

C. Portis 3,354 yds; 23 TDs

11. R. Droughns 3,230 yds; 12 TDs

12. C. Dillon 3,180 yds; 37 TDs

13. F. Taylor 3,157yds; 10 TDs

14. J. Lewis 3,044; 19 TDs

.......

14. W. Parker (2 Seasons only) 2,696 yds; 17 TDs

15. F. Gore (1.5 seasons only) 2,303 yds; 11 TDs

Durability is a big factor with RBs. You can't call Portis, who gets injured, better than a more productive back who is not injured, and rely on health as a reason to excuse the difference.

Besides, even looking at Portis' one good healthy(?) year for us in '05? Here is where it ranks in seasons over the last three years:

1. S. Alexander ('05) 1,880

2. T. Barber ('05) 1,860

3. L. Tomlinson ('06) 1,815

4. L. Johnson ('06) 1,789

5. L. Johnson ('05) 1,750

6. C. Martin ('04) 1,697

7. S. Alexander ('04) 1,696

8. F. Gore ('06) 1,695

9. T. Barber ('06) 1'662

10. C. Dillon 1,635 ('04)

11. E. James ('04) 1,548

12. S. Jackson ('06) 1,528

13. T. Barber ('04) 1,518

14. C. Portis ('05) 1,516

Next year, the following running backs will most likely have a better year than Portis:

LT

LJ

Gore

S. Jackson

R. Johnson

S. Alexander

W. Parker

(Possibly T. Henry in Denver and Maroney in NE as now featured backs)

All the player listed ahead of Portis started more games over three seasons. Portis is at 38, Alexander at 42, LT at 47, Tiki at 46, and Rudi at 45. Portis puts up 100 yard games, and give him 4 more games, or equal to Alexander, and Portis is just out of the top 5 as far as running yards go. Hey, I figure since you don't want to factor in games started, than I can skew the stats a little too. But since when is yardage the only way to measure a RB's talent? CP also excels in run blocking, is a good pass catcher, and can even throw a TD on a gadget play. CP is also a motivator and leader, and a face of the franchise. Some of the backs you listed are leaders, some are not. But these are all other factors that determine a good player. Digging up one stat doesn't mean that's the sole way you judge a player.

I didn't say CP was the absolute best, I said he was top 5. And if CP is a system back, how was he able to come to a new system, one in which he had to be more physical, and set a franchise record with the Skins? keep ignoring that fact. Also, your list has a lot of veterans on it, guys who have played in the league longer than Portis. LT and LJ I said right now are above Portis. But McGahee and Jackson aren't as good as CP according to YOUR one dimensional way of evaluating player talent, if you factor in the number of games started, which should be done, but you chose to neglect becuase it shows the flaw in your argument.

So your system tries to damage Portis by ranking players according to total rushing yards over the past three seasons. So you ignore CP's injury, you ignore that almost every other player has been in their system respective system their entire career, you ignore the fact CP had success elsewhere by not including those stats as if CP's time here is the only way to measure if he is top 5, and you ignore that most every other running back had a much better pass game.

As much as you want to cast injury aside, no excuse matters, because you are using stats to justify your stance, meaning that games started ahs to come into play, otherwise the stats are tilted, not unbiased.

Refuted.

[HailSkinz1]

Since off-season is about bets, here is one for all you "he is a top 5 back" people:

Bet:

Portis does not finish in the top 5 in yards or TDs among running backs.

Wager:

If Portis does, I put in my sig line: "I was wrong about Portis, we should never trade him."

If Portis does not, you put in your sig line: "I was wrong about Portis, trading him should be an option explored by this team."

Are you going to have an injury clause??

Hail,

H

[ClintonINFORSIX26]

Ok the lets trade portis thing is old, Betts is what everyone hypes him up to be. He has no break away speed, he lacks blocking skills, and does not have the moves to get past the second level. Portis is a great blocker, has excellent speed, and when he gets blocks from the Oline hes going in for six. Betts has not show that he can be anything better then a backup because hes not explosive, and he doesnt have the nose for the endzone like most feature backs do.

Seriously, get off Betts hes not as good as people make him out to be, hes a great backup and thats where he fits in at this level

[JPM285181]

I thought trading Portis is a good idea, and I still think it is a good idea. If you want to avoid getting swept up in transitory thoughts, then you should avoid getting swept in off-season championship dreams and remember what you were seeing when the games were being played.

Portis is not a top 5 back. The numbers prove it. Since he has been here, he has been around the 10th rated RB in the NFL. He is not the monster everyone wants to belive. He was that monster in the Denver system, but he is not in that system anymore.

He is better than Betts. But not appreciably better than Betts.

When you have lots of holes on a team, you have to try to fill them by getting rid of luxuries to get necessities. Right now, Portis is a luxury. Betts is good enough to be a playoff contender with. Thus, the extent to which Portis is better than Betts is a mere luxury.

We can trade Portis and hope to get some help on the DL or OL. Maybe get a decent draft pick for him that we can turn into a starter on the DL or OL.

It's pretty simple math: if Portis is X better than Betts, and by trading Portis you can get Y better at DE, then you do it if X < Y. Or, if you are a Madden person, as so many on here appear to be, assume Portis is a 90, Betts an 84. By trading Portis, you can get a 82 DE to replace 72 Daniels [all numbers were completely pulled out of the air to prove the point about improving elsewhere]. I would do that trade. This is about building a better team across the board so we can compete for championships. This isn't about getting star worship.

Now I wouldn't do this is Portis was special. You don't trade LT no matter how many other position you can improve. But Portis is NOT special. And his performance here in Washington shows that (you can't count his performance in Denver when determining his value to this team--you only look at what he has done with this team). He is very good, but not special. Betts is good, too. While Portis is a little better, you can still win with Betts.

That's what I believe based purely on on-the-field player management issues. But in addition to that, I'd trade Portis because I am tired of his act and embarassed that he is considered the face of this franchise. Betts is a homegrown Redskin that is someone this franchise should be proud of from a character perspective. Portis is a loud-mouth U guy who is always talking about how great he is and what he is going to do, but he never does it. And this recent comment from him that he is going to do more of that stupid interview nonsense "just to piss off the haters" really disgusts me. Screw Portis. Portis is about Portis. His statement that he would restructure (which has nothing to do with him losing money or giving anything up) doesn't make it otherwise.

On the field, I'd trade Portis and go with Betts if you can improve other areas needed for improvement. Getting rid of Portis and his antics off the field would merely be an added benefit.

[SnyderMustGo]

And if CP is a system back, how was he able to come to a new system, one in which he had to be more physical, and set a franchise record with the Skins? keep ignoring that fact.

That's more of an indication of how low the Redskins's franchise record was as opposed to how good Portis' season was.

As I showed above, that season was the 14th most productive season of a RB in the 3 years he has been there. So 13 other seasons over that time period would have bested his.

Moreover, look at how many carries Portis had to have to set that record (352 at 4.1 ypc). In that "OMG RECORD BREAKING" season, Portis was 4th in the league in Rushing.

1. S. Alexander, 370 carries, 1,880 yards, 5.1 ypc, 27 TDs

2. T. Barber, 357 carries, 1,860 yards, 5.2 ypc, 9 TDs

3. L. Johnson, 336 carries, 1,750 yards, 5.2 ypc, 20 TDs

4. C. Portis, 352 carries, 1,516 yards, 4.3 ypc, 11 TDs

5. E. James, 360 carries, 1,506 yards, 4.2 ypc, 13 TDs

So that is his "OMG RECORD BREAKING" season which was the most productive one he has had. It was barely 4th in the league. The rest of the time he has been here, he hasn't sniffed a top 5 back.

And if you would calculate Betts production last season given his ypc with as many carries as Portis had, Betts would have broken Portis' record last year by over 200 yards.

[funguy1286]

That's your opinion. However, I'm not the only one on here who is going to diagree with you. Just because you named a couple of the better backs doesn't mean they're better than Portis.

Of your list, I'll give you LT and LJ (although he has only started just recently). I'll even give you sytem-back Shaun Alexander. No one else on that list though. There is a reason why CP is one of the firt five backs in fantasy football every year. Yes I know it's fantasy football, but it is based on stats and how the player is perceived, so it's relevance does come into play here.

Kind of funny that the only ones advocating a CP trade in this thread are all "NNT's".

I don't know why I have NNT's so if a MOD could let me know that would be great. However, what does this even have to do with knowledge of football? Seems like a pretty pretentious argument to me.

[Dirk Diggler]

All the player listed ahead of Portis started more games over three seasons. Portis is at 38, Alexander at 42, LT at 47, Tiki at 46, and Rudi at 45. Portis puts up 100 yard games, and give him 4 more games, or equal to Alexander, and Portis is just out of the top 5 as far as running yards go.

And this is the "duh" that the Portis haters want to deny - that the only reason there are that many backs ahead of Portis is because they enjoyed virtually perfect health the past 3 seasons.

Example: If LaDanian Tomlinson banged up his shoulder and missed most of 2007 and was eclipsed by Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander for rushing yards for the years 2005-2007, does he lose his crown as the undisputed #1 franchise back? Not unless you sniff clue.

Fact is, Portis was a top 5 RB in 3 of his first 4. That's not even disputable. He's not injury prone either. He only missed a handful of games before last year. If he gets injured again this year then we can question his durability.

Portis remains one of the top 5-6 backs in the game based on totality of his career. Whether he can maintain that or not remains to be seen. I sure wouldn't bet against him though.

[SnyderMustGo]

So you ignore CP's injury,

No. I hold him accountable for his frality. Every runningback gets injured. Some are tough enough to play through it. Some aren't. Willis McGahee was injured even after coming off a career threatening injury). Guess who has been more productive over the last 3 seasons? McGahee.

Frality and toughness is a HUGE factor in determining how good a RB is. Just like blocking and pass catching and speed, the ability to STAY HEALTHY is an essential component in determining how good a running back is. If you have a runningback who average 10 ypc, but he can only play 3 games a season because he gets injured all the time, you don't overlook that in determining their value.

If I wanted to be a jerk about his injury, I compare last year and his performance. But I'm looking at a 3 year period, which is the time he has been in Washington. And over that time, he has not produced like a top 5 back that we gave up the games clear #1 CB as well as a 2nd round draft pick for.

you ignore the fact CP had success elsewhere

Absolutely. Because we are talking about his value to THIS team. Not his value 4-5 years ago for a DIFFERENT team.

[funguy1286]

Ladainian tomlinson

2004 3.9 ypc

2005 4.3 ypc

2006 5.2 ypc

Micheal Turner

2004 5.2 ypc

2005 5.9 ypc

2006 6.3 ypc

turner>tomlinson if we go by ur logic

Ill give you credit, you can spin numbers in your favor. However, this comparison is not fair at all seeing as though Turner does not carry the ball nearly as much as Betts does and most of his carries come on passing downs when the defense is in the nickel or dime. Betts put up around 4.5 ypc in the last eight games last season with NO legitamate backup, Portis' best here is 4.3 ypc. To say the two running backs are in different leagues of one another is just plain false.

[RedskinsSuperBowl21]

Just off the top of my head here are running backs better then Clinton Portis:

1) Ladanian Tomlinson

2.) Larry Johnnson

3.) Deuce McAllister

4.) Rudi Johnson

5.) Shaun Alexander

6.) Steven Jackson

Clearly Portis is not a top five back. In my opinion Portis is probably around the 10th best back in the league. Is he good? Yes. However, is he expendable? I'd say yes.

I don't dont think you take in to consideration that portis was injured..if you look at CP's career he is actually on pace to be a top 5 back of ALL TIME.

duece rudi and steven jackson are below portis...

[Flycoach]

For the most part we are all excited to know Portis will be back and 100% healthy at the begining of the year. He's making bold prediction and seems excited about the potential the offence is showing. But I must confess, at the end of this past year I thought it would be a good idea to trade Portis for some draft picks or a stud player. Betts was tearing it up and running the ball down deffences throats. I quickly forgot about the Skins rushing record he had broken and that despite an injured sholder managed 7 tds in 7 games. I am ashamed that I allowed such thoughts to go through my mind. I firmly believe now that we have a chance to get to the playoffs and that Portis can help us get there. I ask forgiveness and was just wondering if anyone was willing to join me in this confession.

It's time to move on....

[RedskinsSuperBowl21]

I dug this up out of an old thread comparing clinton to cadillac check it out.....http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2426237&postcount=23

Clinton Portis: NFL legend.......

IF Portis continues the way he plays his numbers will look like this after 10 seasons:

3,145 attempts

14,285 yds

112.5 TDs

352.5 receptions

2,822.5 yards

10 TDs

10 passing attempts

5 completions

80yds

5 TDs

116.7 QB rating

NFL All-time Top 5(yds)

1. Emmitt Smith - 17,403

2. Walter Payton - 16,726

3. Barry Sanders - 15,269

4. Eric Dickerson - 13,259

5. Tony Dorsett - 12,739

[skins2win2]

This will be my first post here so hello and HAIL. I love portis being our back and he did carry us on his shoulders the year before but anybody is expendable in todays nfl ie champ. Still bitter about letting him go imo best player in the leage/LT. Anyway this came to me the other day and I would like to through this out there just to see what my fellow skins fans think. We have a 2 headed monster in LB/CP why not give betts 4/5 starts this year here and there against teams he matches up well against /CP had a hard week prier. I suggest this based on the following.

1 running backs all seem to get stronger in the games as there carrys/confidents increase

2 I as skins fan would like to keep portis as healthy as possible for as long as possible and even more so if nfl goes to 17 games

3 The oppossing d wouldnt now who to plan for week in or out 2 diff styles of running.

PS just so every one knows I am aware that portis is the better of the 2 but figured this way betts gets good use ie 1st reason , and portis can get an extra week to heal up even if he is not " hurt persay"

[SnyderMustGo]

From reading most of your posts, it seems you would like a Cowboy avatar anyway.

No. How about Monk for my avatar? Or Gibbs I? Or Sonny? Or any of the people who made this franchise proud, great and successful?

As opposed to this current crop of embarassaments brought to us by the worst Front Office in the NFL, presided over by Gibbs II who lost everything that made Gibbs I great. Now its all about talk and show and trying to sell jerseys and t-shirts. Get your new Lloyd jerseys here! Get your Taylor/Archuleta/Landry Bash Brothers t-shirts here! Get your Southeast Jerome t-shirt here! Buy your club level season tickets now because we are going to the SB this year!

Screw all of that. To see the group of people we have out there strutting during timeouts to music while we are getting beat on the scoreboard (and seeing Joe not pull the guys immediately) is an embarassment to the class that Art Monk brought to the field (and you salute with your user name).

I want someone to buy this team and will give it to a President/General Manager who will build a champion ground up of proud, hard workers who are here to bring the franchise glory, not themselves. I want a coach who demands perfection, and if prima donnas act up, they get cut. I want a team I can call the Redskins of home grown players, not high-price mercenaries. I want a team where the fans love the team, not a bunch of "look at me" stars. I want a team that is competitive year in and year out that is deep and dedicated. Not a "win-now" with razor thin depth because we pay for "stars."

I'm sick of all the losing and all the minor fixes this team does instead of rebuilding this right. I'm sick of the lack of pride and character.

If that makes me a Cowboys fan in your eyes, then I suggest you get a little grounding. I am a Redskins fan. Not a Portis fan or a Taylor fan or a U fan or a Gibbs II fan. I am a Redskins fan. And I want them to be a proud and successful franchise. Not a once-proud and once-successful franchise. If we can't win the Super Bowls right away, we can get the pride back right away and work on the Super Bowls.

[RedskinsSuperBowl21]

No. How about Monk for my avatar? Or Gibbs I? Or Sonny? Or any of the people who made this franchise proud, great and successful?

As opposed to this current crop of embarassaments brought to us by the worst Front Office in the NFL, presided over by Gibbs II who lost everything that made Gibbs I great. Now its all about talk and show and trying to sell jerseys and t-shirts. Get your new Lloyd jerseys here! Get your Taylor/Archuleta/Landry Bash Brothers t-shirts here! Get your Southeast Jerome t-shirt here! Buy your club level season tickets now because we are going to the SB this year!

Screw all of that. To see the group of people we have out there strutting during timeouts to music while we are getting beat on the scoreboard (and seeing Joe not pull the guys immediately) is an embarassment to the class that Art Monk brought to the field (and you salute with your user name).

I want someone to buy this team and will give it to a President/General Manager who will build a champion ground up of proud, hard workers who are here to bring the franchise glory, not themselves. I want a coach who demands perfection, and if prima donnas act up, they get cut. I want a team I can call the Redskins of home grown players, not high-price mercenaries. I want a team where the fans love the team, not a bunch of "look at me" stars. I want a team that is competitive year in and year out that is deep and dedicated. Not a "win-now" with razor thin depth because we pay for "stars."

I'm sick of all the losing and all the minor fixes this team does instead of rebuilding this right. I'm sick of the lack of pride and character.

If that makes me a Cowboys fan in your eyes, then I suggest you get a little grounding. I am a Redskins fan. Not a Portis fan or a Taylor fan or a U fan or a Gibbs II fan. I am a Redskins fan. And I want them to be a proud and successful franchise. Not a once-proud and once-successful franchise. If we can't win the Super Bowls right away, we can get the pride back right away and work on the Super Bowls.

i nominate you for the naysayers roster...over in the betting thread:2cents:

[909997]

I dont understand how SnyderMustGo keeps bringing up that portis doesnt have top 5 stats

yet he has more rushing yards then LT last 2 years

iam not gonna count this year because he was injured

its also funny how u think portis is a system RB

how about LJ? KC has had #'s of good RB's in their oline and put up monster #'s

look at LJ's stats he loses his FB and LT his ypc goes from 5.2 to 4.3

what if portis played for KC or chargers? they have monster Oline and hall of fame FB's

if your gonna bring out his lack of production then bring out the players around him too.

lets look at some top RB"s in the game today

Ladainian Tomlinson-Probowl QB, HOF FB, Probowl TE.

Shaun Alexander-Probowl QB, Best RT,RG in NFL, HOF FB.

Steven Jackson-Probowl QB, 2 HOF WR's, HOF RT.

Rudi Johnson-Probowl QB, 2nd best WR corp in nfl.

And what does portis have? Mark Brunell, and a young TE, WR that cant stay healthy.

[elkabong82]

No. I hold him accountable for his frality. Every runningback gets injured. Some are tough enough to play through it. Some aren't. Willis McGahee was injured even after coming off a career threatening injury). Guess who has been more productive over the last 3 seasons? McGahee.

Frality and toughness is a HUGE factor in determining how good a RB is. Just like blocking and pass catching and speed, the ability to STAY HEALTHY is an essential component in determining how good a running back is. If you have a runningback who average 10 ypc, but he can only play 3 games a season because he gets injured all the time, you don't overlook that in determining their value.

If I wanted to be a jerk about his injury, I compare last year and his performance. But I'm looking at a 3 year period, which is the time he has been in Washington. And over that time, he has not produced like a top 5 back that we gave up the games clear #1 CB as well as a 2nd round draft pick for.

Absolutely. Because we are talking about his value to THIS team. Not his value 4-5 years ago for a DIFFERENT team.

None of your stats change the fact that you are advocating the trade of a (in your eyes) top 10 player. Your previous statements on Portis clearly indicate you flat out don't like the guy. You also still ignore the cap penalties of trading Portis, which would hinder the Skins from obtaining other players. So basically you are saying we should trade a top 10 player because you don't like him. All the stats in the world won't refute that.

[elkabong82]

By Snydermustgo's logic, Kennison is a better WR than Randy Moss. The past three seasons Kennison has had a total of 3,048 receiving yards, to Randy Moss' 2,325.

Maybe, just maybe, there are other factors to be looked at in a player than solely the amount of yards they put up.

[SnyderMustGo]

So basically you are saying we should trade a top 10 player because you don't like him.

God, you have serious reading comprehension deficiencies.

If you go back and look at my original comment in this thread, read it and--this may be a new step for you--comprehend what I was saying, you will see that I say trade Portis only if you can improve the team elsewhere. Can you not grasp that simple point?

Portis is a good player.

Portis is better than Betts.

You can win and be a Super Bowl competitior with Betts.

As such, having Portis is a luxury since you can win with Betts.

I would trade the luxury if, and only if, you can improve your team elsewhere in a way that is a net improvement over the loss in quality from Portis to Betts.

I would trade anyone if the replacement is quality enough to be a competitor with, with the lone exception that I wouldn't trade special players. Portis is not a special player.

This seems to be a rather simple point, but you apparently aren't grasping it. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

[909997]

By Snydermustgo's logic, Kennison is a better WR than Randy Moss. The past three seasons Kennison has had a total of 3,048 receiving yards, to Randy Moss' 2,325.

Maybe, just maybe, there are other factors to be looked at in a player than solely the amount of yards they put up.

my question is how would portis's stats look like if he had a probowl QB like carson palmer and a HOF FB blocking for him