Stunning Lack of Young Talent

[GSF]

The chargers made two AWSOME trades and set themselves up for years because of it.

Both involved Quarterbacks (Michael Vick and Eli Manning). Netted them Tomlinson' date=' Brees, Rivers, Keading, Merriman, and a few role players.

That is how to BUILD.[/quote']

:laugh: You're only telling half the story there. When you have the #1 pick 2 out of 3 years you have a lot of options. You seem to forget how long the Chargers were awful when they earned those top picks.

It's amazing to me how determined some of you guys are to prove how horrible the Redskins' FO and Gibbs are.

It's been pointed out that the Redskins are in fact very young at all the skill positions on offense. It's also been pointed out how many teams have failed building through the draft and that the draft is in fact as much of a crapshoot as FAs are or more, but none of you even address those points in your posts.

[The Full Monty]

:laugh: You're only telling half the story there. When you have the #1 pick 2 out of 3 years you have a lot of options. You seem to forget how long the Chargers were awful when they earned those top picks.

And we're picking in the top 10 for the 2nd out of Gibbs 3 years back...I don't need to look at the Chargers to appreciate what it is to suck.

It's amazing to me how determined some of you guys are to prove how horrible the Redskins' FO and Gibbs are.

The FO was really bad this year, not overall. Terrible choices were made going into this season, is that not a fair assessment?

It's been pointed out that the Redskins are in fact very young at all the skill positions on offense. It's also been pointed out how many teams have failed building through the draft and that the draft is in fact as much of a crapshoot as FAs are or more, but none of you even address those points in your posts.

Don't bring up teams that have never done crap like the Cardinals as an example of overrating the draft. You're smarter than that.

Why do other people's screwups on the draft make it ok to neglect it?

We won the Super Bowl multiple times with key draft picks contributing - that's what I think about when I think Redskins and draft picks. Joe Jacoby, Darrell Green, Monk, Terry Orr, Didier, those were all draft picks, and they weren't all #1's or #2's either.

And yes, the draft is a gamble, but you don't get 7.1 million dollar cap hits on a 3rd rounder that doesn't work out...which is exactly what AA will cost us when we cut him. And wait a second, we've got 3 3rd rounders starting and they are playing great this year(Dockery, Rabach, and Coooooley).

But nope, we won't have a 3rd rounder this year, because despite the fact that Saunders was raving about Betts in the offseason and despite the fact that Gibbs and Co. have spent 2 years coaching Betts they decided that T.J. Duckett and T.J. Duckett alone was absolutely necessary as a back-up.

So in the end, yes, I'm aware the draft is a gamble, but the punishment for a bad draft pick is nothing like the punishment of possibly letting some of our core players go because our cap situation --or being forced to pinch our pockets this offseason as we again try to fill long overdue roster holes.

[thinker]

Clearly we are younger on offense than defense and that is good, our Olinemen, though are at least 30 except for Dock, but look at our defense:

Daniels - 33

Wynn - 32

Salave'a - 31

Griffin - 30

Carter - 27

Evans - 27

Holdmann - 31

Campbell - 27

Washington - 29

Marshall - 30

Posey - 31

Springs - 31

Prielou - 29

Vincent - 36

Fox - 27

These guys are what they are. There isn't going to be much upside at this point. Posey is not suddenly going to get it and become a star.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Hey, is this a knock against old age?

Seriously, I'd rather have a proven player who can play right away, than gamble on a rookie...

Especially since we can afford it and have an owner willing to spend the money.

How's Arizona doing through the draft? Detroit? Minnesota? Cleveland? Miami? Buffalo? Green Bay?

Stop me at any point....

Aside from Detroit and Cleveland...better than us.

[chronicdesi]

Also, every year we seem to pick up good prime players from other teams when we do trade our draft picks. We've missed on a few lately, but if we can get the talent evaluation better, we may have a system setup.

[trez]

Among the mot distressing aspects of how this team has been put together is the incredible reliance on older veterans - even for backup and special teams play. Here's a list of players on the 53 man roster aged 25 or younger:

Sean Taylor - 23

Carlos Rogers - 25

Jason Campbell - 25 (next week)

Rocky MacIntosh - 24

Kedric Golston - 23

Anthony Montgomery - 22

Ryan Boschetti - 25

Reed Doughty - 24

Nemo Broughton - 24

Jim Molinaro - 25

Brandon Lloyd - 25

Mike Espy - 24

Chris Cooley - 24

That's 13. Obviously there are 7 important players there, but where are the young guys with big upsides among the other six? At our positions of greatest need - CB, LB, DE - we don't have a single guy that is young and could turn into a big time player beyond the occasional special teams play (not including people already starting - I'm including Rocky will be the starter)? I think this is the real problem of not having a gm and trying to win now.

The Bears have 21

The Chargers have 27

The Patriots have 24

The Ravens have 26

The Colts have 28

The Eagles have 24

Do you see a pattern here? We have to upgrade our young talent and without good draft picks we can expect this trend to continue. A bad sign.

I couldn't agree more. This team clearly needs more young, fast, passionate players that come up through the system.

[skinny21]

Aside from Detroit and Cleveland...better than us.

While I agree that our team needs to get a bit younger, and that our FO has made some serious mistakes (as well as some great moves)... my biggest problem is our willingness to give away multiple draft picks.

With all that said... which of those teams that tr1 mentioned have gone to the playoffs recently, let alone the second round? I truly believe that this year was a bit of a fluke for us.

I'm not predicting playoffs next year, but I do expect to see a markedly improved team. The only position that really scares me is the CB spot - particularly depending on Springs.

[skinny21]

You mean like AA and Duckett?

I'm hoping he is actually talking about Washington, Griffin, Carter (apparently), Springs, et. al., but I think you already knew that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Clearly we are younger on offense than defense and that is good, our Olinemen, though are at least 30 except for Dock, but look at our defense:

Daniels - 33

Wynn - 32

Salave'a - 31

Griffin - 30

Carter - 27

Evans - 27

Holdmann - 31

Campbell - 27

Washington - 29

Marshall - 30

Posey - 31

Springs - 31

Prielou - 29

Vincent - 36

Fox - 27

These guys are what they are. There isn't going to be much upside at this point. Posey is not suddenly going to get it and become a star.

Daniels - 33 - old, slow, hopefully gone. problem solved

Wynn - 32 - back up anyways, doesnt play a lot.

Salave'a - 31 - injured too much, outplayed by golston. back up hopefully

Griffin - 30 - very good, 30 isnt ancient either

Carter - 27 - 27 is young, and hes turning into a beast

Evans - 27 - back up, who cares, plus decent on pass rushing

Holdmann - 31 - good lord hopefully hes working at ihop next year

Campbell - 27 - special teams, very good

Washington - 29 - awesome and hopefully will continue to be

Marshall - 30 - regardless of age, too small to be a LB

Posey - 31 - back up, who cares

Springs - 31 - getting older, injury problems, needs to be a SS or FS

Prielou - 29 - good at what he does, and not that old

Vincent - 36 - really old, back up only

Fox - 27 - young and looks decent. could turn out to be solid

hopefully a number of these older guys will be replaced with younger guys next year. new DE to replace daniels who is old, mcintosh replaces holdman/marshall so right there you have two 24 or younger guys in. new free agent linebacker and move marshall to backup or nickel LBer. golston is young and with carter being 27 and a griffin at 30, you have a nice front 7 of guys who are mostly in their mid 20s.

[deejaydana]

It's completely realistic, and this really pains me to admit, that this team because of it's idiotic wheeling and dealing and the "win now" mentality, will not be competitive for at least 3-4 years. And this is only if we completely change our mindset and stop giving away draft picks like their Halloween candy. I could understand this approach if Snyder had plans to only own this team for another year---he wouldn't be around to witness the wreckage of a year like this one, but for all his business acumen he has no talent in what it takes to effectively build and manage a winning franchise. Good thing for him owning a professional sports team is damn near recession-proof in this country. What a kook.

[str8jacket]

I like having veterans on the team, but the concern there for me isn't their age but the fact of how many are just injury magnets. I think it's important to bring in players that have a history of staying healthy and not the other way around. And yeah, trading away the draft picks just hasn't been good, that will set us back. Don't mind a trade down, but if the player we need is available up top-the guy that could turn things around we gotta take that player.

[stwasm]

This is what happens when you shun the draft for free agency. And yet they have no problem jacking up prices on us for an aging team.

[str8jacket]

Agreed. I have alot of respect for teams like the 49ers who actually drafted to rebuild their team instead of in FA. I don't agree with all of their decisions, but alot of respect for putting things on the backburner for a couple years to improve. They were right there in the wild card hunt until losing to AZ.

[Dexter's Better]

Agreed. I have alot of respect for teams like the 49ers who actually drafted to rebuild their team instead of in FA. I don't agree with all of their decisions, but alot of respect for putting things on the backburner for a couple years to improve. They were right there in the wild card hunt until losing to AZ.

Plus they have a franchise QB/RB/TE and just need a few WR's and OL -- and its go time.

[tr1]

Aside from Detroit and Cleveland...better than us.

Really?

Take a look at our offense in the last five weeks. If we get just a decent defense on the field next year, we'll be in the playoffs with no sweat...the teams I listed have NO chance.

[thinker]

Right now we would probably agree that our lb's are the least talented group - and there's only one young lb on the roster. We drafted McCune and Newberry and they're gone. Remember Zak Keasy the coach's favorite last year? Remember Chris Clemons got nicked up so we cut him after showing really well the previous year. Didn't we draft another lb this year in the 7th (Simon) who's gone too. Right now, I'd bet that Marcus is our only LB that ANY other team would consider as a starter for them. Besides Rocky - there isn't anyone who is likely to get much better than they already are. Sorry that's just not smart. This offseason we'll have to overpay for young stars or scan the waiver wire for other teams' rejects. Maybe we'll find a gem in the late rounds - but if top prospect Rocky took the whole year to get on the field over Holdmann - that's a real longshot.

[OfficerPX]

I always love reading the front office bashing and the clamor for a "real" GM. Perhaps I can add a little perspective here. Charley Casserly, who certainly has been considered one of the top performing GM's in the NFL, was our GM from 89-99, or thereabouts. For consideration, I took a look at his drafts during the salary cap era, which would be 1994-1999.

1994:

Heath Shuler, Tre Johnson, Tydus Winans, Kurt Haws, Dexter Nottage, Gus Frerotte

1995:

Michael Westbrook, Corey Raymer, Darryl Pounds, Larry Jones, Jamie Asher, Rich Owens, Brian Thure, Scott Turner

1996:

Andre Johnson, Leomont Evans, Stephen Davis, Kelvin Kinney, Jeremy Asher, DeAndre Maxwell

1997:

Kenard Lang, Greg Jones, Derek Smith, Albert Connell, Jamel Williams, Keith Thivadeaux, Twan Russell, Brad Badger

1998:

Steven Alexander, Skip Hicks, Shawn Barber, Mark Fischer, Patrick Palmer, David Terrell, Antwauane Pounds

1999:

Champ Bailey, Jon Jansen, Nate Stimson, Derek Smith, Jeff Hall, Tim Alexander

-----------------------------------------------------

So there are 42 draft picks over 6 seasons. In 1996 and 1998 we traded our first round picks for Sean Gilbert and Dan Wilkinson, respectively. And in 1999, Casserly orchestrated an incredible trade with Saints which netted us an additional first round pick for the 2000 draft.

So for all the talk of depth, and average age and everything else... is the draft really where we go wrong? I don't think so.

The argument that can be made is that we overpay for free agents, and play a little loose with draft picks. "The experts say that you should get a starter out of your 3rd and 4th rounders..." argument is always intriguing, and yet, how well did we do with 1st rounders during this period? One bust after another until we landed Champ Bailey.

The TJ Duckett trade was something that makes generally no sense to me and bringing in Archuleta and then not using him in a way that might have let him maybe succeed was a free agent mistake. But front offices, and even great GMs, do make mistakes.

But as of now, for the first time in several years that I remember, we're starting out the offseason already under the salary cap. We do have young players starting at almost every skill position on offense, and even have reason for hope at the QB position, which quite frankly we haven't been able to enjoy since 1993. And on defense, we have young players starting at a major positions as well.

So does a great GM and tons of draft picks make the difference, I'll let you make your own decisions... but from 1994-1999 we were 40-55-1 overall with about seven draft picks that ended up being major impact players for our organization.

[Oldfan]

OfficerPX -- So does a great GM and tons of draft picks make the difference, I'll let you make your own decisions... but from 1994-1999 we were 40-55-1 overall with about seven draft picks that ended up being major impact players for our organization

Your argument is based on the premise that Charlie Casserly is a great GM and then you conclude from your research that even a great GM garnered only seven impact players for us.

You overlook the other conclusion. Maybe your research proves that Casserly is not a great GM and your argument is based on a false premise.

With 12 picks available to him, Bobby Beathard found six starters and one very capable reserve player in the 1981 draft alone. That was a banner year for the franchise, but great GMs have that kind of year at least once in a career.

[SkinsFTW]

The Bears have 21

The Chargers have 27

The Patriots have 24

The Ravens have 26

The Colts have 28

The Eagles have 24

Do you see a pattern here? We have to upgrade our young talent and without good draft picks we can expect this trend to continue. A bad sign.

Whats even worse is that those teams actually play a lot of their young guys too. Ours come in after an injury and look like deer in headlights because they have seen no action. Thats even some of the vets we have signed.

It's pretty pathetic. Every year the same "it takes a while to learn the system BS" while the Saints, Jets, are starting almost whole new teams and no talent 49ers, Titans, and Packers have more wins.