Geoff_K Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 blocking and tackling .... top things to do in a game .. if the other team cannot score they CANNOT WIN .... shore up that D might be in our best interest this off season. look at the colts .. scoring machine with no D .. .. they wont win the big game with that balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Sorry, I disagree with the premise of this thread It is amazing how quickly we forget the overall futility of the "Joe Gibbs" offense last year Before the 2nd Dallas game, Die Hard made a great that ended with "we are going to get killed" DH broke down our incredibly simple passing game. From the 49er game till that 2nd Dallas game, teams had totally shut down our passing offense. Santana Moss had all but dissapeared from the O, and we were once again struggling to pass the ball downfield with any consistancy. 3 nice games against division teams didn't feed into the playoffs. Remember the pathetic performance in Tampa? Or the fact the O could not move the ball against a Seattle team that was not playing its best? What seems to be happening now is what I thought would happen in Februrary. The basics of Joe Gibbs' offense would be there but plugged into the 21st century with Al Saunders' offense. I.E it would be much more of a hybrid, incorporating the smash mouth of the Gibbs offense with the unpredictabilty of the Saunders O That is what has happened the last few weeks. However before that it was the "Air Saunders" show and that clearly was not what this team was built for with Mark Brunell at QB Remember Joe Gibbs used to love shifts and motions, just watch highlights from all of our Superbowls, it was a team that moved around a lot before the snap So now that Joe Gibbs has forced Al Saunders to call more of a power running game, we are seeing the offenses mesh together more. Which in my opinion is a great thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPortJGibbs89 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Saunders offense has plenty of running in it. Larry Johnson rushed for 1750 yards in 12 games last year, KC overall was 4th overall in the NFL for rushing (we were 7th)in 2004 they were 5th in the NFL in rushing (we were 21st) in 2002 they were 3rd. I truely believe Joe Gibbs went out and got Saunders because, as mentioned by Oldfan, he felt his offense was behind the times as evidenced by the last few games of last season. - Our only TD's in the Tampa AND Seattle game both came on real short fields because of our D getting a turnover. (Remember in Tampa we passed for less than 100 yards total) - I think he may have also been thinking about the future as well, to have somone in place if he retires in a few years. I don't think he realized how much more complex this offense is compared to his and that it would be so difficult to learn, but at this point it would be a waste to change yet again. - We should just be happy Campbell is in there growing with it. - Between the remainder of this season and all of the off-season, the chemistry will a brewing. Whenever I see someone saying Saunders does not like to run the ball I always ask people to look at what the running backs did in his system in KC. This guy loved to run the ball and did it very very well. I loved the move and I still do. If our defense was not as bad it was I dont believe we would be having half these discussions and if anyone realized that Brunell was not the QB of this type of offense we would have not struggled as bad. Everything takes time. I love what I am seeing these past few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPortJGibbs89 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Sorry, I disagree with the premise of this threadIt is amazing how quickly we forget the overall futility of the "Joe Gibbs" offense last year Before the 2nd Dallas game, Die Hard made a great that ended with "we are going to get killed" DH broke down our incredibly simple passing game. From the 49er game till that 2nd Dallas game, teams had totally shut down our passing offense. Santana Moss had all but dissapeared from the O, and we were once again struggling to pass the ball downfield with any consistancy. 3 nice games against division teams didn't feed into the playoffs. Remember the pathetic performance in Tampa? Or the fact the O could not move the ball against a Seattle team that was not playing its best? What seems to be happening now is what I thought would happen in Februrary. The basics of Joe Gibbs' offense would be there but plugged into the 21st century with Al Saunders' offense. I.E it would be much more of a hybrid, incorporating the smash mouth of the Gibbs offense with the unpredictabilty of the Saunders O That is what has happened the last few weeks. However before that it was the "Air Saunders" show and that clearly was not what this team was built for with Mark Brunell at QB Remember Joe Gibbs used to love shifts and motions, just watch highlights from all of our Superbowls, it was a team that moved around a lot before the snap So now that Joe Gibbs has forced Al Saunders to call more of a power running game, we are seeing the offenses mesh together more. Which in my opinion is a great thing You have always been dead on with my same opinions. I have argued with my girlfriend dad until I am blue in the face that our offense was not as great as everyone thought it was last year. Just because our defense is so bad this year is why everyone wants to blame Saunders. Put this defense with last years offense and tell me how well we woudl have done. The only major problem with the O this year is the red zone. It has been made public that Gibbs gets involved inside the 35 yard and beyond. That has got to stop because there are to many ideas going on and not enough time that is why we have struggled with time management. Gibbs wants to do one thing Saunders wants another and no one is on the same page. Once everyone gets on the same page this off-season everyone will be riding Saunders nuts. Not much more I need to say because you have said it all for me my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB44 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 It does work. Teams that pound the ball and set up play action win. Combine that with solid defense (which we lacked from week 1) and those are the teams that will be playing in January.It seems I have said this same statment at least a dozen times. I don't know why coaches have to try and make things so difficult.Spurrier, Norvous, and Al Saunders. :doh: This will hopefully be different next year. A physical training camp is a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamaGoliath Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 What seems to be happening now is what I thought would happen in Februrary. The basics of Joe Gibbs' offense would be there but plugged into the 21st century with Al Saunders' offense. I.E it would be much more of a hybrid, incorporating the smash mouth of the Gibbs offense with the unpredictabilty of the Saunders O That is what has happened the last few weeks. However before that it was the "Air Saunders" show and that clearly was not what this team was built for with Mark Brunell at QB Remember Joe Gibbs used to love shifts and motions, just watch highlights from all of our Superbowls, it was a team that moved around a lot before the snap So now that Joe Gibbs has forced Al Saunders to call more of a power running game, we are seeing the offenses mesh together more. Which in my opinion is a great thing :applause: Thank you. Gibbs needed to make it clear what he wanted from Saunders and what we are seeing now is more a product of that. We aren't quite as 1 dimentional as we were last year. Teams are learning that they can no longer cheat against this offense. They now have to respect both the run and pass game. The lack of respect in the passing game had as much to do with Gibbs as it did Brunell and now you can see a change happening. Once Campbell becomes more comfortable with his receivers and this offense things are really going to take off and nobody is going to have a thing to say about Saunders' 700 page playbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Its cliche, but true: If you can run the ball, you've got a chance against anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 We can fuse the two offenses (which is what we've been seeing over the past month). As much as we've lined up and puched defenses in the mouth, we've had more success with Saunders' wrinkles lately (the reverse to Randle-El yesterday and the Randle-El pass last week). I think that is directly related to us doing the basics. We can let the Al Saunders Redskin offense evolve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranklinNoble Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Actually, I think we're seeing the formation of a combination of the talents of Saunders and Gibbs. Some of the old-school philosophy being merged with some modern sophistication. The offense is starting to click right now. PLEASE don't suggest we make any more changes to it. Can we have one stable, non-volatile off-season for the team to get comfortable with one system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robotfire Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Its not learning a new offense. Its the same offense that we ran last year.See, I don't think that's completely true. At this point, it looks like a hybrid to me. Saunders's playbook, Gibbs's style. I believe we re-established our offensive identity, and I think it will take off next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAILBOMB9 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Wow man, no offense, but this thread and or comment has been beaten to death here!! Except for the red zone playcalling which is just killing us, I don't mind the play calling that much. Well, that and when we call something other than a run when we're pounding the "you know what" outta the D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan81 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I agree 100% Joe Gibbs offense was fine. I can uderstand bringing in Saunders to add a couple of wrinkles or help understand current tendencies of teams, but what Gibbs was doing before was working. No need to overhaul everything this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uno Boss Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Since Gibbs II began... When have we had an offense that moved the ball with ease like we have the last 4 games.... Sure we havent scored alot of points but that will come.... Overall this team has moved from 20 to 20 without a hitch... If anything the problem with our O this year has been when Gibbs gets involved in the Redzone.... Suander calls the plays up until we get tothe 20 and then Joes wants input...which is why we always call timeout and have timing issues and delay of game penalties.... in 2004 and 2005 we never had so many wide open recievers as we do now... Sorry But Im in no hurry to get back to the same offense that was 2nd to last in the league in 2004 and only put up 2 TD's in the post season... Let Campbell keep the same system and then see if the productions is better next year... Gibbs can focus on making better in game decisions.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoles11 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I think with the passing of time you remember last year alittle more positive than it actually was. Kinda like a story where the fish gets bigger each year. The offense was not good last year. It was darn right bad at times. You mentioned the 5 game winning streak, 6 if you count the playoff win. Do you not remember that in the Cardinal game we were flat out awful on offense and needed a kick return to win it? Do you not remember the Eagle game where if it wasn't for the defense scoring and putting us in great field position with turnovers that we probably wouldn't have won that game? How about the playoff win over the Bucs where we were laughed at for breaking the record for fewest yards gained by a team that won a playoff game. The offense last year was highly inconsistant, I think you are choosing only to remember the good times and forgetting the bad times. The name of the game in the NFL is consistancy, 35 points one weak and then breaking a record for fewest yards gained the next isn't going to cut it. We have some really good weapons on offense and now that Brunell is out of the way and Campbell is in there this offense has a chance to grow and be explosive. Saunders body of work speaks for itself, its not his fault Gibbs stuck him with Brunell and right now i'm sure Campbell is being limited by his inexperience. Next year when this all gels you guys won't be asking to have Joe Gibbs back as OC. I've given Gibbs hell for alot of things this year but I give credit for stepping down as OC, it was needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertfox59 Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 I think many of you make good counter-points to my original point if you think that my point was that the play calling has been a point of concern. But you are missing the point. To me it isn't so much the play calling as much as it is the failure in the execution of the fundamentals of blocking and tackling. Those championship Gibbs teams of the past had some of the best blockers and were always quality tacklers. We can't say that about any of Gibbs's teams since his return. The whole Saunders thing to me is about doing the fancy things the trick plays or just the sheer number of plays at the expense of doing the basics of football. Hell if Saunders had players who were executing the basics at a higher percentage he'd be a great play caller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CM916 Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Comparing our early season team to the team we have now, Gibbs has deffinitely had a hand in which packages Saunders gets to use. Joe Gibbs' offense wasn't broken last year but it did sputter out at times and it certainly wasn't elite despite Portis, Moss, and Cooley setting records. It was good but not great. Turn even a fourth of our field goals into touchdowns and look at our yardage lately and what we have is a souped up modernized Joe Gibbs team, curtesy of Al Saunders. They come out of the same school of coaching, remember. The new system is finally starting to click and it's looking great. What this franchise needs more than anything right now is patience and stability. You need only look at the last 15 years of our history to see how well we have done changing everything every year. They warned us that it might take some time to fit the Saunders system into Redskins football and we knew putting in Campbell was going to make that take just a little longer. Let's try leaving things alone for once and see where that gets us. Going back to what we were doing last year is still making a drastic change at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Our offense has played well enough to win, it has nothing to do with that side of the ball - IT IS ENTIRELY DEFENSE! Our team has averaged 17 points a game. The offense hasn't been fine. The Colts would have a worse record than us if they averaged 17 points a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uno Boss Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Our team has averaged 17 points a game. The offense hasn't been fine. The Colts would have a worse record than us if they averaged 17 points a game. The skins averaged only 19 last year the first 11 games.... and that stat was padded by a 52 point performance against San Fran.... But to truly understand why Al Saunders was brought in and to really recall how bad we sucked offensively you have to remember the output in the games below when the defense was forcing turnovers like crazy and we still couldnt do squat!...:doh: Chicago 9 and the defense forced 2 Turnovers!!! Dallas 14 0 in the first 56 minutes of the game Seattle 20 3 in OT Denver 19 NY Giants 0 The Dougnut says enough! Philly 17 Oakland 13 (only 6 pts by the offense) San Diego 17 the D forced 3 Turnovers !!! Arizona 17 only 10 pts by the offense and the D forced 4 Turnovers !!!!! Playoffs Tampa 17 Only 10 pts by the offense and the D forced 3 Turnovers!!!! Seattle 10 and the D forced 3 turnovers!!!! Looking at those numbers with the production compared to the turnovers and that tells you we SUUUUUCKED on offense....:doh: This year we average 17 points but have had waaaaay worst field position than last years team..... The other difference is this is the first year in this offense with 2 seperate QB's and one being a first year starter.... That offense last year was in its second year with no changes and still looked awful.... And please dont let me get to bringing up the production form Gibbs first year...you know back when we were second to last in the league.... How soon we forget....:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins11 Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Seeing what we've done lately, I think the offense next year will click really well. I just hope that the defensive players don't hate Gregg Williams and play like a team like they did against the Panthers and Saints. Oh, and I hope "second G for genius" Williams has been humbled by this year's experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahnicaricoohh Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Joe Gibbs football has been working since the days of Walter Camp. Why We brought in Al "Super-ego" Saunders and his 700 page how-to-play-fancy-pants-football-with-little-or-no-execution-of-the-basics- of-the-game playbook I'll never know. .... Come back to us Joe Gibbs....We need you. greatest hyphenated word ever, and I think you are dead on but Brunell can be a good(maybe great) backup next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Pease Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 I agree with your premise that we need Joe Gibbs to retake overall control of the Redskins team (coaches and players). He needs to reassume the position of leadership. A great leader inspires and motivates everyone on the team to function at a peak level of excellence. I don't know what the dynamics have been between Joe Gibbs, Greg Williams, Al Saunders, the rest of the coaching staff, and the players this season compared to last season; but I wonder if Joe Gibbs didn't back off from closely interacting with the team after he bought in Al Saunders (so as to give Al Saunders control). If so, then I suspect that what got lost this season was the inspiration and leadership qualities of a great leader that is needed to produce a great team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budski Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Yes this team was built to run first by Joe Gibbs himself. None of this fancy smanchie stuff. The real trick to this game is to run over people, it seems to have a demorlizing affect on your opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertfox59 Posted December 20, 2006 Author Share Posted December 20, 2006 I don't know what the dynamics have been between Joe Gibbs, Greg Williams, Al Saunders, the rest of the coaching staff, and the players this season compared to last season; but I wonder if Joe Gibbs didn't back off from closely interacting with the team after he bought in Al Saunders... I think he probably did what you say. I also think that it was a mistake. I still remember watching the body language of Al Saunders at the press conference when Gibbs was speaking....you could see the ego just seeping threw his pores. It's a shame such a humble man as Gibbs is forced to deal with so many out of control ego's as he is. But I guess that's the state of all professional sports today.....:doh: It begs the question....Who plays for the love of the game anymore? Where are the Walter Payton's of old? Will they ever return?.....LT maybe you're the answer. I like his attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoudMouth12thMan Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 It does work. Teams that pound the ball and set up play action win. Combine that with solid defense (which we lacked from week 1) and those are the teams that will be playing in January. Did you read the post? He said pound the ball, and I'm assuming he meant run the ball a lot to set up the pass a la' playaction or whatever. Sure our D has sucked and I think Gibbs has taken over the team. Al sucks this year. We'll see what he does after a year of trial and error...mostly a lot of the later. HTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Yes this team was built to run first by Joe Gibbs himself. None of this fancy smanchie stuff. The real trick to this game is to run over people, it seems to have a demorlizing affect on your opponent. So, why do you suppose it failed in the preseason 2004 and nine games into the season? Why did Joe have to add Denver's fancy zone blocking and then, at the close of the year, proclaim that he saw the need to stretch the field with the passing game because "...up here, you need balance?" Redskin Football: "Run the Ball. Stop the run." There is no ultimate strategy in football. "Run the ball" only makes sense if the defense isn't good at stopping the run. "Stop the run" only makes sense if your opponent's strength isn't their passing attack. West Coast offenses pass first. The Patriots use more shotgun spread than any team in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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