I would like to clarify something (GUTTING this team)

[kleese]

I've made lots of posts in the last few days talking about "saving the season" and "getting back in it," etc..... I've been hollered at more than a few times for being delusional.

What I am doing in those posts is expressing a HOPE. I'm saying those things are SLIGHT possibilities. I do think that IF we beat Dallas, we COULD go on a little run and wind up playing some meaningful games in December. I've watched too much football over the years to not understand that sometimes teams improve throughout the course of a season. I think it is possible that we get a mini-roll out of the break.

HOWEVER, if you asked me what I REALLY think WILL/SHOULD happen, then maybe I'd be considered the "darkest" poster on this board.

If this team continues down this road the rest of this season, I 100% believe we should gut this staff and roster COMPLETELY.

Gibbs gone.

Williams gone.

Saunders gone.

Trade Portis, Moss, Jansen, Samuels, Washington, etc.... I am DEAD serious about it too. I'd like to make this roster look as much like an expansion team as possible.

If we're talking about going 3-13 or 4-12 WITH these guys, then they simply aren't worth it. I don't care how much we love Santana-- if we're THIS bad, then having him here will NEVER do us any good.

I'd take ALL of our cap hits right now, sign NO ONE in the off-season, hire an unhearlded head coach from the assistant ranks, have him build his OWN staff, and start from the ground up. I would keep guys like Taylor and Rogers-- relatively young and inexpensive. But if there is ANY player who's age to salary to production ratio (Cornelius) is in doubt, I'd dangle them and then simply release them if there isn't interest.

If they are afraid we wouldn't have money to sign multiple 1st rounders, then trade down into the lower rounds for more picks.

Believe me folks, I'd much rather see this team make a comeback this year and avoid the housecleaning. But IMO, if we continue down this road and DO NOT make these wholesale changes, we'll never eclipse the 8-8/9-7 mark and be mired in this muck forever.

[Thiebear]

At what point will...

Consistancy be tried?

year after year of "at least" attempting to keep your players.

Allowing them to react intead of think / then react...

Please, please try it as 20% change each year is easy on the Jersey sales but tough on my twitching eye...

[Thinking Skins]

Posts like this are a good stress reliever. I've written a few similar ones overn the past few weeks. I'm not mad at you. But you'll come to your senses in a little while.

[Capt'n Obvious]

Lets try showing some stability with this organization.

[Combatant]

Lets try showing some stability with this organization.

I agree, stability has been our biggest downfall over the years. The constant movement of players and coaches in and out of Redskin Park is the main reason for the organizations struggles since our Superbowl victory in the 1991-1992 season.

[kleese]

Stability? If we go 6-10, 10-6, 6-10 that's NOT stability to me. That means that Gibbs gave it a good run, but came up short. Way short.

And let's not forget-- we need to change our entire organizational philosophy. "Stability" means staying the course-- which for the Redskins means trading picks, and going after the Archuleta's of the world. I have NO doubt that if we keep this staff, we will continue to make those kinds of moves. I will not be surprised ONE BIT if we trade our 1st rounder before the draft next year.

If we end this season as a "bad" football team, then I believe a gutting is in order. If we end it as a so-so team, then perhaps we can keep it together a bit longer and see if some tweaking won't do the trick. But if this winds up being a 3-13/4-12 type season, then I see NO reason why we should "stay the course."

[CHUBAKAH]

I want what Kleese is smoking.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

While I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as the op of this thread, I think that he's got the right general structure of what needs to be done.

I hate to admit it, and it's going to ensure that we're rebuilding for another 3-5 years before we see a real shot at going deep into the playoffs, but this team needs a total overhaul from the top down. I went through an extended list of the things that need to be done a couple weeks ago. I'll probably revise and expand it in the next couple weeks and repost it closer to the end of the season.

[edit]I keep hearing the word "stability" being tossed around. Stability is only useful if the stable position is a winning one. We've had stability. We've been stable as one of the most mediocre teams in the NFL for a decade and a half. Let's look for GREATNESS first, then worry about keeping that position stable once we get there.

[XxSpearheadxX]

Portis is the same age as Carlos Rogers, and is all but untradeable.

Lloyd should stay, and of course this years rookies.

I also Think Saunders and Williams should stay, and Gibbs should either be moved to Team President with a REAL GM making the decisions and Gibbs just involved in player scouting/recruitment and the other Redskins stuff.

Other than that, I agree with you.

BTW, we should most likely trade down in the 1st round no matter what, definately shouldn't trade out of it though.

If there is some huge talent at LBer or DE that is all but can't miss, I would sign him as this defense definately needs a 3rd playmaker for the future, assuming Rogers gets back to his playmaker self from his rookie year and isn't just a solid CB.

[Art McDonough]

So you're saying to send the entire offense packing just because we don't have a QB who can run it. Except for QB, we have the best skilled personnel in the NFL. Moss, Cooley, Portis, Lloyd, Randle El, Sellers...what could a Peyton Manning do with that...or an Eli Manning...damn I'd take Archie Manning right now.

[fansince62]

no way...that's insane unless you have stockpiled draft picks...and we know how inept the organization has been in that regard.

[tex]

i like the idea but no doubt danny is too chicken to even think about it. it's a money thing. keep the fans attention focused on name players to put people in the seats.

winning is obviously a secondary concern.

[tundey]

This wouldn't be such a bad idea of the problem was with the entire team. The problem is Brunell and his inability to make some type of throws. I keep hearing that Brunell is only comfortable with those 5-yard throws, screens and check downs. That may be acceptable from a rookie 'cos you know he's gonna get better. But from a 14-year veteran that's supposed to make us "win now", it's simply unacceptable. We need to get JC in there. Not because he's better than Brunell but because we need to find out what he can and can't do. If JC is a bust, let's find out for sure this season and prepare accordingly for the next season. The Giants did it with Eli and won the division the next year. Bengals did it with Palmer and they are the toast of the league (remember how horrible the Bengals were 3-4 years ago?). Steelers were forced to do it with Big Ben and they only won the super bowl.

I think it's time Joe Gibbs find out for real what JC is made of. If he was a mistake, apologize and move on. If he is the real deal, sacrifice this season for a better (immediate) future.

I've made lots of posts in the last few days talking about "saving the season" and "getting back in it," etc..... I've been hollered at more than a few times for being delusional.

What I am doing in those posts is expressing a HOPE. I'm saying those things are SLIGHT possibilities. I do think that IF we beat Dallas, we COULD go on a little run and wind up playing some meaningful games in December. I've watched too much football over the years to not understand that sometimes teams improve throughout the course of a season. I think it is possible that we get a mini-roll out of the break.

HOWEVER, if you asked me what I REALLY think WILL/SHOULD happen, then maybe I'd be considered the "darkest" poster on this board.

If this team continues down this road the rest of this season, I 100% believe we should gut this staff and roster COMPLETELY.

Gibbs gone.

Williams gone.

Saunders gone.

Trade Portis, Moss, Jansen, Samuels, Washington, etc.... I am DEAD serious about it too. I'd like to make this roster look as much like an expansion team as possible.

If we're talking about going 3-13 or 4-12 WITH these guys, then they simply aren't worth it. I don't care how much we love Santana-- if we're THIS bad, then having him here will NEVER do us any good.

I'd take ALL of our cap hits right now, sign NO ONE in the off-season, hire an unhearlded head coach from the assistant ranks, have him build his OWN staff, and start from the ground up. I would keep guys like Taylor and Rogers-- relatively young and inexpensive. But if there is ANY player who's age to salary to production ratio (Cornelius) is in doubt, I'd dangle them and then simply release them if there isn't interest.

If they are afraid we wouldn't have money to sign multiple 1st rounders, then trade down into the lower rounds for more picks.

Believe me folks, I'd much rather see this team make a comeback this year and avoid the housecleaning. But IMO, if we continue down this road and DO NOT make these wholesale changes, we'll never eclipse the 8-8/9-7 mark and be mired in this muck forever.

[kleese]

I want what Kleese is smoking.

I'm smoking reality.

Please let me say again that FIRST I want to see how 2006 plays out in full. If we turn this thing around and/or if JC comes in and CLEARLY makes a big difference, then I'm all for "staying the course" and giving it another shot with the same basic group in 2007.

But if we continue to be miserable, continue to lose, and continue to show no signs of life, with little contribution from young players, then I believe it is the ONLY smart thing to do to unload.

How do fix and OLD 4-12 team with no draft picks??????

[authentic]

First of all we need:

- a good GM

- revamp the Oline and Dline (keep R. Thomas, C. Griff, D. Evans, Golston)

- Force MB into retirement or cut him.

- sign Duckett to a contract then trade him for a draft pick (maybe a 5th rounder)

- keep G. Williams and A. Saunders

- FIRE those blasted scouts!!!

- cut Holdman, Archuleta, Carter, K. Wright, M. Rumph.

[tex]

First of all we need:

- FIRE those blasted scouts!!!

check your spelling. i think it's spelled louts.

[#98QBKiller]

I've made lots of posts in the last few days talking about "saving the season" and "getting back in it," etc..... I've been hollered at more than a few times for being delusional.

What I am doing in those posts is expressing a HOPE. I'm saying those things are SLIGHT possibilities. I do think that IF we beat Dallas, we COULD go on a little run and wind up playing some meaningful games in December. I've watched too much football over the years to not understand that sometimes teams improve throughout the course of a season. I think it is possible that we get a mini-roll out of the break.

HOWEVER, if you asked me what I REALLY think WILL/SHOULD happen, then maybe I'd be considered the "darkest" poster on this board.

If this team continues down this road the rest of this season, I 100% believe we should gut this staff and roster COMPLETELY.

Gibbs gone.

Williams gone.

Saunders gone.

Trade Portis, Moss, Jansen, Samuels, Washington, etc.... I am DEAD serious about it too. I'd like to make this roster look as much like an expansion team as possible.

If we're talking about going 3-13 or 4-12 WITH these guys, then they simply aren't worth it. I don't care how much we love Santana-- if we're THIS bad, then having him here will NEVER do us any good.

I'd take ALL of our cap hits right now, sign NO ONE in the off-season, hire an unhearlded head coach from the assistant ranks, have him build his OWN staff, and start from the ground up. I would keep guys like Taylor and Rogers-- relatively young and inexpensive. But if there is ANY player who's age to salary to production ratio (Cornelius) is in doubt, I'd dangle them and then simply release them if there isn't interest.

If they are afraid we wouldn't have money to sign multiple 1st rounders, then trade down into the lower rounds for more picks.

Believe me folks, I'd much rather see this team make a comeback this year and avoid the housecleaning. But IMO, if we continue down this road and DO NOT make these wholesale changes, we'll never eclipse the 8-8/9-7 mark and be mired in this muck forever.

Yeah, completely changing this team every offseason has done so much good for us. The inconsistency gets us a playoff bid nearly every year...just what we need. :jerk:

[kleese]

Actually, we've NEVER made this change. We've never changed our philosophy and roster at the same time.

[iheartskins]

kleese--this is basically exactly what ASF, Yusuf, and I were talking about yesterday in ASF's QB thread. Essentially have a blood letting year, have a fire sale, and begin to stockpile the right personnel in the front office and look to the draft.

ASF's focus was starting with the OL...and I tend to agree.

I guess this is the "Five Year Plan."

But I generally agree with tex, that there's no way that Snyder would be willing to do this. Too much to potentially lose in the short term--and no guarantee that we'd be able to find and successfully execute such a plan. That uncertainly will prevent this plan from being implemented in DC, unless there's a sea change in attitude.

[DCSaints_fan]

I think to win the NFL today, you need the following:

1) You need ither a GM that can evaluate talent well, or a coach that is a good talent evaluator and has defacto control over personnel (to an extent) and a GM who is good at wheeling and dealing and managing the cap. Right now the Redskins have neither.

2) You need to build your team via the draft. You can't do it with free agency/trades alone. Free agency is important in patching up holes, but the core of the team shouldl be built with the drarft. Look at the Patriots the last couple years. All of their key playes were acquired by the draft,. Free agents tend to be less loyal to the organization and in it for the money. And in the salary cap era, drafting is important for quality depth. Younger guys are just cheaper. Drafting younger guys keeps the vets on their toes, knowing that there is guy below the ranks who will jump at the chance to prove themselves and take their starting positionport. Experienced vets who already had their paydays and are more likely to be looking to cruise into retirement, although there are some exceptions (older guys who want a ring before retirement)

3) The Redskins need to drop the "win now" mentality. There are rare exceptions but during a rebuild you generally have to accept a few mediocre seasons before being considered a contender. Especially if you are developing a young QB. And especially if you trade away entire drafts.

4) Coaches who had really good runs tend to not do so well the second time around. (Jimmy Johnson, Mike Ditka and now it looks like Gibbs) Bill Parcells is sort of an exception, but he never won a Superbowl after the Giants, and has reached progressively lower in the playoffs with the teams he's been with(New England = superbowl appearance, NYJ = playoff appearances, Dallas = playoff apperance, no wins) . The Redskins should stop lookin for a quick fix and take a chance on a good coordinator or a coach who was just in a bad organization (like Belicheck and Shanahan were) I think you could say this "quick fix" mentaility is the problem with the entire organzation - from player philosophy to coaching.

Saunders has not gotten much of a chance here, but if you change the head coach then he might want to hire "his guys" and not want with Saunders. Williams could probably still be a good DC if he has the proper talent to work with, but since the FO insists on pissing away all the talent (Bailey, Smoot), overpaying for marginal free agents(Archuleta, Carter) while not giving him any depth he is in a tough situation. You can say he approved of the moves, but I bet he was just sticking up for the incomptent front office.

[laurent]

HOWEVER, if you asked me what I REALLY think WILL/SHOULD happen, then maybe I'd be considered the "darkest" poster on this board.

If this team continues down this road the rest of this season, I 100% believe we should gut this staff and roster COMPLETELY.

Gibbs gone.

Williams gone.

Saunders gone.

Trade Portis, Moss, Jansen, Samuels, Washington, etc.... I am DEAD serious about it too. I'd like to make this roster look as much like an expansion team as possible.

Level of agreement 100%.

[#98QBKiller]

Actually, we've NEVER made this change. We've never changed our philosophy and roster at the same time.

What about this year with the new WRs, TEs, RBs, QB, and new offensive philosophy?

[Skins11]

I don't know even where to begin, but here is a start. Why would you want to get rid of guys like Portis and Moss?? They are both very young and in their prime. You want to give up these cornerstones for some mystery bag draft pick??? And what could you possibly get for them, a couple first round picks? Wow, great, now we can use those two picks for a runningback and receiver who may or may not pan out. :doh:

I understand what you're getting at with some of the other overpaid underperformers, but getting rid of guys like Portis/Moss is just asinine. These two guys in particular are not underperformers or deadweight by any means.

You know you can gut a roster and become a good team while still keeping guys who add value.

Anyway, in order to gut a team, we have to get some people who know how to DRAFT, especially in later rounds.

[DCSaints_fan]

What about this year with the new WRs, TEs, RBs, QB, and new offensive philosophy?

Well when you talk about the entire philosophy (not paying high priced free agents, not throwing away draft picks), it has pretty much been the same old story. And when did the QB change?

[#98QBKiller]

Well when you talk about the entire philosophy (not paying high priced free agents, not throwing away draft picks), it has pretty much been the same old story. And when did the QB change?

I'm talking about the addition of Todd Collins for the simple reason that he already knows the Saunders philosophy. And that's exactly what I meant by philosophy, the offensive philosophy of this team and the addition of so many new players, it takes time. Not to mention that the players that were already here had to learn it all as well.

A huge revamping is the last thing this team needs, we need some stability first. This organization tries something new every year and wonders why nothing works. Our GM wants immediate gratification and won't settle for allowing players to get comfortable in any system. We have some of the best players on the market, but they need time to adjust to all of the offensive changes.