TradeTheBeal! Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Certainly there are other problems, but it appears that Mr. Saunders has taken what last year was among the most feared, relentless and potent running attacks in the league and mutated it into something resembling the June Jones/Houston Oilers mid-90s "Red Gun". It's all finesse, all the time and it has become the identity of this team and this defense just like KC's defenses during his tenure there - listless and unfocused. Let's face it, Al Saunders has a LOT more in common with Norv Turner than Joe Gibbs. Personnel moves aside, the only chance this team has to have some success this year is to remove much, if not all, of offensive duties from Al and justly return them to Joe. Anything less than that will result in continued futility on both sides of the ball, IMO. P.S. - As I recall, those wishy-washy Turner teams of the mid-90s/ "Run-n-Shoot" outfits also seemed to play consistently horrendous defense despite any attempt to upgrade their personnel. It's kind of a "symbiosis" thing, I suppose. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nneece Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Saunders track record speaks for itself. However, one thing is for certain Saunders needs a QB who can throw the ball to run his version of offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staxnet Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 The Redskins are the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzhi Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 You are kidding me right. KC rushing attack was better than ours last year. LJ had 1750 yards 20 TD vs CP 1516 yards 11 TD. Not even going to mention the rest of the offense numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllBusiness Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Just tell me where the OC was for Indy? That's where Saunders needs to be each and every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Certainly there are other problems, but it appears that Mr. Saunders has taken what last year was among the most feared, relentless and potent running attacks in the league and mutated it into something resembling the June Jones/Houston Oilers mid-90s "Red Gun".Thoughts? Ever hear of Priest Holmes or Larry Johnson... ? Until we have a QB in there throwing more than 3-yard passes, opposing teams will load the line-of-scrimmage and we'll never be able to establish a serious running game unless you want Portis' career to end before the age of 27. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeTheFG Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 ever hear of al saunders offense not under dick vermeil? vermeil is the true offensive mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Ever hear of Priest Holmes or Larry Johnson... ?Until we have a QB in there throwing more than 3-yard passes, opposing teams will load the line-of-scrimmage and we'll never be able to establish a serious running game unless you want Portis' career to end before the age of 27. who is calling the plays (from ScoutsInc): Jeff (DC): Who is most to blame for the Redskins completing third down receptions well short of the first down marker? Brunell, Receivers, or Al Saunders? Chuck Knox, Jr.: (12:21 PM ET ) Its obviously going to fall on the coach because he designs the plays. Then it falls on the receivers because they might be running the route short for various reasons. Then it goes to Brunell. But it ultimately falls on the coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armada58 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Saunders is coordinating an offense with one hand tied behind his back. We have yet to see what this offense is capable of because we can't threaten any defenses farther than 15 yards downfield. That's not Saunder's fault. Saudners can call all of the deep passes and long plays he wants to, those passes aren't being thrown. A lack of respect for our deep passing game has crowded the line of scrimmage and made it impossible to generate a good, consistent rushing attack. Add to that fact that we are coming from behind in the 4th quarter most of the time and being forced to throw. I believe this offense is everything it is supposed to be. It's been proven everywhere Saunders has been. Except here he is being asked to put 1/3 of his offense in the drawer becasue our (insert long string of curse words here) starting quarterback is totally washed up and useless. Seriously, would you blame the mechanic because the driver refuses or can't push the gas pedal to the floor while driving the racecar that was the fastest car on the track for 4 straight years?? Would you blame the golf clubs and the caddie because the golfer refuses or can't use the driver that was proven to be the longest on tour for 4 straight years? I know everyone is frustrated, but the problems on offense all come back to one person. That person is not Al Saunders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armada58 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 ever hear of al saunders offense not under dick vermeil? vermeil is the true offensive mind Totally incorrect. That was Saunders' play book and Saunders calling the plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armada58 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 who is calling the plays (from ScoutsInc):Jeff (DC): Who is most to blame for the Redskins completing third down receptions well short of the first down marker? Brunell, Receivers, or Al Saunders? Chuck Knox, Jr.: (12:21 PM ET ) Its obviously going to fall on the coach because he designs the plays. Then it falls on the receivers because they might be running the route short for various reasons. Then it goes to Brunell. But it ultimately falls on the coach. Follow up question...... If the play called had 3 patterns past the First Down Marker and the QB threw to the 4th outlet pattern well short of the 1st down, then who's to blame?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 who is calling the plays (from ScoutsInc):Jeff (DC): Who is most to blame for the Redskins completing third down receptions well short of the first down marker? Brunell, Receivers, or Al Saunders? Chuck Knox, Jr.: (12:21 PM ET ) Its obviously going to fall on the coach because he designs the plays. Then it falls on the receivers because they might be running the route short for various reasons. Then it goes to Brunell. But it ultimately falls on the coach. What's your point? He's dishing out who's responsible for what saying where things "fall," not why things are done they way they are done, the reasons we can't go long, etcetera. The Coach is ultimately responsible because he's the Coach. That's on paper. That doesn't mean Saunders is the ultimate problem with the Offense, it means he has a QB who can't get the job done, regardless the reason. You think Saunders doesn't like to stretch the field? You think he doesn't like a power running game? He knows we can't do the former because we can't do the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzhi Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 who is calling the plays (from ScoutsInc):Jeff (DC): Who is most to blame for the Redskins completing third down receptions well short of the first down marker? Brunell, Receivers, or Al Saunders? Chuck Knox, Jr.: (12:21 PM ET ) Its obviously going to fall on the coach because he designs the plays. Then it falls on the receivers because they might be running the route short for various reasons. Then it goes to Brunell. But it ultimately falls on the coach. Going to repost completed passes on 3 down that didn't make 1st down marker: 1st Qtr: 3rd and 13 at WAS 28 (13:37) (Shotgun) M.Brunell pass short right to C.Portis to WAS 39 for 11 yards 2nd Qtr: 3rd Qtr: 3rd and 8 at WAS 48 (10:50) (Shotgun) M.Brunell pass short left to L.Betts to IND 49 for 3 yards 3rd and 7 at WAS 19 (6:39) M.Brunell pass short right to L.Betts to WAS 21 for 2 yards 4th Qtr: 3rd and 8 at IND 49 (14:23) (Shotgun) M.Brunell pass short right to M.Sellers to IND 45 for 4 yards 3rd and 10 at IND 22 (10:59) M.Brunell pass short left to C.Portis to IND 17 for 5 yards 3rd and 20 at WAS 44 (2:58) (Shotgun) M.Brunell pass short right to L.Betts to IND 37 for 19 yards => They were all dump offs to RB. Are the coaches really designing plays on 3rd down to the RBs? And, you can't blame the receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roanoker Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Dont know if Saunders is the culprit. From what Ive seen, eveyone shares some blame. Al is in good company. I would like to see any element (offense, defense or ST) step up to the plate and show some leadership, however, that has not happened on a consistant basis. Usually all are at fault. Therefore, IMO, AL, Gregg, Danny and yes, Joe must take responsibility for what's going on the field and fix it. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 You are kidding me right. KC rushing attack was better than ours last year. LJ had 1750 yards 20 TD vs CP 1516 yards 11 TD. Not even going to mention the rest of the offense numbers. Statistically, KC's was better by the slightest of margins and I think that it's safe to say that, historically, the NFC East is tougher against the run than the AFC West. 2005 Chiefs 05 Skins As far as the rest of the numbers, Brunell was better than Green last year - and, himself, better last year than this year. Additionally and most importantly, last year we did it with POWER running and dominance between the tackles and at the line of scrimmage. Very, very little of that is evident under Saunders this year and that, IMO, is the crux of the problem. IOW, Saunders philosophy, despite putting up bigger numbers, is more finesse-based and, therefore, inferior to Gibbs' philosophy - particularly within the context of the NFC East. Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanghai Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 The redskins are a smashmouth team,but under Al we are trying to be a finess team and that doesn,t work in the NFC!! When was the last time the cheif,s made the playoffs!! Al has gotta go!! The players don,t belive in the system and nither do must of us!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Pablo Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Al takes some of the blame. When was the last time we ran between the tackles to slow down the rush? Every single run is to the outside where our O-lineman have to regularly get out in space and block. This tires us out as much as it tires out opposing defenses. These finess runs to the outside get shut down as teams stack more and more linebackers and safeties over the receivers. Every play outside the hash marks has effectively been taken away from us. The cure? Run the ball up the gut and pass the ball along the seams. Going up the gut can be attributed to Saunders, but the passing attack (the routes are fine) holds someone else responsible. Brunell... He cannot stretch defenses vertically. This has little to do with arm strength, and more to do with the fact that he doesn't stay set in the pocket and deliver the ball. He evades any and all pressure no matter how far away it is. You can't throw deep if your feet are constantly shuffling. I've also never seen him read all of his progressions on the field this season before running to make time. Brunell is done and not because he can't physically get it done, but because he's playing "super" scared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 It's the defense thats the culprit. Look no further than Williams and his group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Execution56 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 It was Joe Gibbs that went searching for Al Saunders, with a blank check, and not the other way around. Therefore, in my book, it is Coach Gibbs fault for becoming lazy and not doing the job he promised us. Last season, he took us to the brink of making the NFC championship game, with two playmakers (Moss and Portis) and his HOF offense that produced 3 SB's. Why in the world did we need Al Saunders to change the offense of a playoff team so instead of let's say only Brandon Lloyd learning the offense and plays, but now ALL ELEVEN STARTERS start from square one, by taking 16 steps backwards. We totally regressed... The offense lost the chemistry we developed at the end of last season. That is why we are losing. We NEED TO keep our own developed players... This is getting OUT OF HAND! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I can't and won't judge Saunders until he has a qb who can throw downfield. Brunell's stats are decent, but if it's anything more than 3rd and five, the offense is pretty much screwed. Teams are crowding the line of scrimmage, killing the running game, because they know Brunell doesn't trust himself to throw anything more than five yards accurately. Brunell goes vertical maybe three times a game -- in the history of the NFL, I have never seen anything like it. It makes the offense incredibly easy to defend. The fact that the offense is generating points at all is a testament to Saunders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasta Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 The redskins are a smashmouth team,but under Al we are trying to be a finess team and that doesn,t work in the NFC!! When was the last time the cheif,s made the playoffs!! Al has gotta go!! The players don,t belive in the system and nither do must of us!! Yeah it was really the fault of the Chiefs offense that they didn't go right? Their offense was rolling out top 5 ranking every year while the D was in the bottom 10. Blaming it on Saunders and the offense is ridiculous. They did their jobs. And does anyone really think that the plays being called don't have guys further down the field? Maybe Brunell just won't throw the ball downfield. Look at the pass to Portis last week that should have been picked off. Lloyd was 15 yards further downfield jumping up and down for the ball wide open. Brunell has tunnel vision for Moss, Cooley and Portis. And Moss would never have had the 15 yard penalty yesterday if Brunell actually throws him the ball instead of dropping it right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passizle Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Here is a little eye opening history for all of you. I was against Saunders coming here (like it would make a difference:doh: ) Saunders history as head coach and offensive coordinator and wider eceiver coach: 1. From 1983-1986, Saunders was the wide receivers coach for the Chargers. He was tapped as the Charger's Interim Head Coach when Coryell resigned during the middle of the 1986 season. Saunders would eventually replace Coryell as the Head Coach from 1986-1988. 1986 4-12 05th AFC West 1987 8-7 03rd AFC West 1988 6-10 04th AFC West 2. From 1989-1998, Saunders was with the Kansas City Chiefs, where he served as the Assistant Head Coach and Wide Receivers Coach under Marty Schottenheimer. (Remember, he DID NOT perform the playcalling here.) 1989 8-7 12nd AFC West 1990 11-5 02nd AFC West-Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Dolphins) 1991 10-6 02nd AFC West-Won Wild Card Playoffs (L.A. Raiders) Lost Divisional Playoffs (Bills) 1992 10-6 02nd AFC West-Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Chargers) 1993 11-5 01st AFC West-Won Wild Card Playoffs (Steelers) Won Divisional Playoffs (Oilers) Lost AFC Championship (Bills) 1994 9-7 02nd AFC West-Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Dolphins) 1995 13-3 01st AFC West-Lost Divisional Playoffs (Colts) 1996 9-7 02nd AFC West 1997 13-3 01st AFC West-Lost Divisional Playoffs (Broncos) 1998 7-9 04th AFC West 3. Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the Wide Receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as Assistant Head Coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. 1999 13-3 01st 2000 10-6 02nd 4. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the Offensive Coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005.(Having the number 1 offense never got him to the big one here. Its all about W' and L's my friends.) 2001 6-10 04th AFC West 2002 8-8 04th AFC West 2003 13-3 01st AFC West-Lost Divisional Playoffs (Colts) 2004 7-9 03rd AFC West 2005 10-6 02nd AFC West IMO as history has shown, his play calling WHILE HOLDING A HEAD COACH OR OC POSITION and W/L records are as inconsistant as our season thus far. He is 72-71 all time.(under HC or OC) To put it simply. Saunders was never the asnwer. I dont know what Gibbs was thinking, but I hope he takes back the reigns soon and lights the provervial fire under the Skins arses or we can look forward to another one of Saunders losing seasons.:2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Execution56 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Here is a little eye opening history for all of you. I was against Saunders coming here (like it would make a difference:doh: )Saunders history as head coach and offensive coordinator and wider eceiver coach: 1. From 1983-1986, Saunders was the wide receivers coach for the Chargers. He was tapped as the Charger's Interim Head Coach when Coryell resigned during the middle of the 1986 season. Saunders would eventually replace Coryell as the Head Coach from 1986-1988. 1986 4-12 05th AFC West 1987 8-7 03rd AFC West 1988 6-10 04th AFC West 2. From 1989-1998, Saunders was with the Kansas City Chiefs, where he served as the Assistant Head Coach and Wide Receivers Coach under Marty Schottenheimer. (Remember, he DID NOT perform the playcalling here.) 1989 8-7 12nd AFC West 1990 11-5 02nd AFC West-Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Dolphins) 1991 10-6 02nd AFC West-Won Wild Card Playoffs (L.A. Raiders) Lost Divisional Playoffs (Bills) 1992 10-6 02nd AFC West-Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Chargers) 1993 11-5 01st AFC West-Won Wild Card Playoffs (Steelers) Won Divisional Playoffs (Oilers) Lost AFC Championship (Bills) 1994 9-7 02nd AFC West-Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Dolphins) 1995 13-3 01st AFC West-Lost Divisional Playoffs (Colts) 1996 9-7 02nd AFC West 1997 13-3 01st AFC West-Lost Divisional Playoffs (Broncos) 1998 7-9 04th AFC West 3. Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the Wide Receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as Assistant Head Coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000. 1999 13-3 01st 2000 10-6 02nd 4. Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the Offensive Coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL's top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002-2005.(Having the number 1 offense never got him to the big one here. Its all about W' and L's my friends.) 2001 6-10 04th AFC West 2002 8-8 04th AFC West 2003 13-3 01st AFC West-Lost Divisional Playoffs (Colts) 2004 7-9 03rd AFC West 2005 10-6 02nd AFC West IMO as history has shown, his play calling WHILE HOLDING A HEAD COACH OR OC POSITION and W/L records are as inconsistant as our season thus far. He is 72-71 all time.(under HC or OC) To put it simply. Saunders was never the asnwer. I dont know what Gibbs was thinking, but I hope he takes back the reigns soon and lights the provervial fire under the Skins arses or we can look forward to another one of Saunders losing seasons.:2cents: This the most interesting analysis I have read! Thank you! I said in another thread that Coach Gibbs should have delivered on his promise to guide our offense and not give us an "imposter" to run the offense. Gibbs has the THREE Super Trophies and not Al Saunders. We had a playoff team and gave them a new offense (which could be the same as getting a new head coach). The chemistry we developed at the end of last season is completely gone. The team is in shambles. GW tells us that Rocky McIntosh (whom we gave up for an extra draft pick when he would have been available at the spot we were picking) makes mistakes in practice yet we can take other players off the street (Troy Vincent) and give them plenty of playing time. It is a disaster on both sides of the ball. What the heck does Vinny Cerrato actually get paid to do? :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Ah yes, "the Two Million Dollar man" otherwise known as Al Saunders. Joe Jacoby was right: all the skins needed on offense was one hot receiver to balance Moss. Not two, or another coach, or another running back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 GW tells us that Rocky McIntosh (whom we gave up for an extra draft pick when he would have been available at the spot we were picking) makes mistakes in practice yet we can take other players off the street (Troy Vincent) and give them plenty of playing time. :mad: Would you rather have Vincent or Archuleta in pass coverage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.