NoCalMike Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Well, everyone right now is all in a buzz, because it looks like the Democrats have a good chance at winning a bunch of seats, but for a skeptic like me who has seen over the past six years, the democrats wimp out when it mattered the most, I am not ready to breathe easy yet. I think there is still one issue out there that could give the democrats a huge boost, one that is insurmountable, but the question is are there any democrats that feel the way I do about this...... That issue is immigration. As a liberal, I see many reasons to be against illegal immigration. While conservatives have their own reasons, I think it is about damn time the democrats step up to the plate and lay out the reasons why as liberals we SHOULD BE against illegal immigration as well. Some of the issues are.... Border Safety(of course, both sides agree on this) The breaking down of Unions Hurting the low wage american worker The billions in healthcare costs the taxpayer subsidizes The rampant abuse of american labor laws. When George Bush makes a claim like, "They do the jobs Americans won't do" he is partially right, he just leaves out the rest of the sentence which is "....for slave wages" I think the Democrats could easily take on this issue, by stating that they don't necessarily feel illegals, are bad people, they are here to work and because our corporate structure breaks the law, it facilitates the illegal workers because it provides them with what they want, jobs. I would take a hard-line stance on the corporations that employ illegal aliens, because it is, well, AGAINST THE LAW. I think if the Democrats did this, they would win a lot of support from independents that sit on the fence. Also, coming down hard against Illegal Immigration is a winning issue right now, no matter who you are and/or from what party you are in, but in a year where the Democrats have the "edge" I think speaking up on an issue like this would do a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 That would involve making a stand...Isn't that frowned on? Much easier to complain and play both sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskin81 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Well, everyone right now is all in a buzz, because it looks like the Democrats have a good chance at winning a bunch of seats, but for a skeptic like me who has seen over the past six years, the democrats wimp out when it mattered the most, I am not ready to breathe easy yet. I think there is still one issue out there that could give the democrats a huge boost, one that is insurmountable, but the question is are there any democrats that feel the way I do about this......That issue is immigration. As a liberal, I see many reasons to be against illegal immigration. While conservatives have their own reasons, I think it is about damn time the democrats step up to the plate and lay out the reasons why as liberals we SHOULD BE against illegal immigration as well. Some of the issues are.... Border Safety(of course, both sides agree on this) The breaking down of Unions Hurting the low wage american worker The billions in healthcare costs the taxpayer subsidizes The rampant abuse of american labor laws. When George Bush makes a claim like, "They do the jobs Americans won't do" he is partially right, he just leaves out the rest of the sentence which is "....for slave wages" I think the Democrats could easily take on this issue, by stating that they don't necessarily feel illegals, are bad people, they are here to work and because our corporate structure breaks the law, it facilitates the illegal workers because it provides them with what they want, jobs. I would take a hard-line stance on the corporations that employ illegal aliens, because it is, well, AGAINST THE LAW. I think if the Democrats did this, they would win a lot of support from independents that sit on the fence. Also, coming down hard against Illegal Immigration is a winning issue right now, no matter who you are and/or from what party you are in, but in a year where the Democrats have the "edge" I think speaking up on an issue like this would do a lot. As a Democrat i sure wish they would. It is totally out of controll here in Texas. There trying to change school policies and make all kids pledge to the flag in english and spanish. I live by 2 famalies that I think are illegal and neither one of them has a working spouse in them. Thats right rent free while i bust my ass to earn a living. I have no problem with anyone that wants to be a citizen this country was founded on immigrants. But learn the language and get a job. If we took away all the free everything programs there wouldnt be an issue. They would go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 yeah i'm surprised by Dem's inability to make any kind of a stance on anything. It's almost like they are too afraid to make a move. "shhhh dont touch anything. anything we do Karl Rove can turn against us" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Illegal immigrants are bad for our economy, they are bad for our social programs and bad for our education system. They do in fact drive down the legal wage for a particular job. The job is then not available for legal americans (mexicans or not) at a higher wage that they could live on. Claims of 10 or more per house are due to the need to save as much money as possible to both live here and to send to their dependents back in Mexico. Creating a legal means for their entry will alleviate all these issues. When they are legal they bring their family and have to stand up for a wage that they can live on. They won't tolerate the greedy manipulation by business people that prey on their illegality. When they are legal they have the same opportunities social programs provide, but a larger percentage of the work force will be legal and making more money and paying more taxes. Mexicans aren't lazy in my experience and will work their asses off even harder when everything is legit. Any abuse of the system now is because when you're illegal and don't have any benefits you have no choice but to take handouts with regard to health care. As for low income housing and food. I haven't seen any evidence suggesting Mexicans are any more likely to use these system than any other racial category of americans. So if they were legal that would remain so I think. When we get a higher percentage of second generation immigrants, which will happen when they can bring their families, we will see a quicker move to english. As compared with wave after wave of first generation you males. Schools won't have to have bilingual education if they don't want too. Personally, knowing spanish is something I'm proud of. I don't see where anyone would be disadvantaged by knowing two languages. And again, working at higher wages would increase their contribution to taxes. Unfortunately all these things would either lower profits for businesses or increase the cost of goods and services. Cheap illegal labor is really more of an influence on our current economic health than I think most people realize. Hence one of the reasons for the Bushies to not want to stop it. We suddenly get a picture of our economic health that doesn't include the influence of this incredible amount of cheap labor and somes eyebrows would be raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Well, ignoring the fact that it is already too late in the election cycle to be rolling out a new platform... I don't think this is an issue that's really helping any party right now. Everyone is against illegal immigration. I haven't seen a lot of candidates come out and say, "More illegal immigrants!" Even the illegals themselves want to get rid of illegal immigrants (by legalizing). The real problem is how you actually make a difference, and the truth is there is no simple solution. Build a wall? More border agents? More enforcement against corporations? Doing any of these things right will cost a lot more money than anyone is willing to spend right now while we're running a deficit and fighting a war. And most people on the ground will tell you that these things aren't going to make a real dent in an illegal population well into the millions. So people just resort to slogans: "we need to be tougher on immigrants," "close the borders," "English only." If there were an easy solution, we would have implemented it already. This is a hard issue, and saying that you're against illegal immigration isn't getting anyone anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted October 19, 2006 Author Share Posted October 19, 2006 Well, ignoring the fact that it is already too late in the election cycle to be rolling out a new platform...I don't think this is an issue that's really helping any party right now. Everyone is against illegal immigration. I haven't seen a lot of candidates come out and say, "More illegal immigrants!" Even the illegals themselves want to get rid of illegal immigrants (by legalizing). The real problem is how you actually make a difference, and the truth is there is no simple solution. Build a wall? More border agents? More enforcement against corporations? Doing any of these things right will cost a lot more money than anyone is willing to spend right now while we're running a deficit and fighting a war. And most people on the ground will tell you that these things aren't going to make a real dent in an illegal population well into the millions. So people just resort to slogans: "we need to be tougher on immigrants," "close the borders," "English only." If there were an easy solution, we would have implemented it already. This is a hard issue, and saying that you're against illegal immigration isn't getting anyone anywhere. You are correct, and I am not saying the issue would be be easy or have an easy solution. What I am saying is that traditionally, coming out AGAINST illegal immigration has been a republican stance, while the Democrats either just kind of stayed silent on the issue, or sided with illegals(this is more in local races). It is pretty much collectively assumed by most people that this is a wedge issue for conservatives to use to rally their base, and I am just trying to state that as a LIBERAL, I see many reasons why we should come down hard against illegal immigration and I think it is time for the Democratic party to start speaking up. The republicans, who have been traditionally against illegal immigration, have done little to change what is going on, while being in total control for the last six years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProBowler Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Well as a liberal democrat I wouldn't go overboard on the issue. Everyone has made some great points but in my opinion some of the "effects" of illegal immigrants are just the result of things soon to come anyhow and they are just speeding it up. Such as taking away jobs, lowering wages for unskilled labor and increasing health care costs. In other words illegal immigrants are not the "real" cause for a lot of the problems they are being held responsible for. Unskilled labor jobs represent what people? I'm not trying to be insensative but most, not all of these people working these jobs are people looking for their next 6 pack or joint. These jobs don't pay to support a living anyhow and most people working these jobs are not serious about taking action to provide a better living. So what jobs are these illegal immigrants taking and are they really that important to a successful society. Our health care system has been a problem for a while compared to other major countries who have national health care systems. As long as health care is a free interprise it will go up just like everything else. Some of rising health care cost is due to the high malpractice insurance doctors are forced to pay nowdays. Some of it is because doctors have been abusing the medicare system and they can't get away with it anymore. Now they got to recover this money. This isn't probably what the majority of the people would want to hear though. Most people want to believe if we get rid of all the illegal immigrants things would be okay. So, for election purposes I would avoid it and if pressed on it go with the hard line majority feelings on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I think, as a political matter, the only reason the D's aren't going to have a 2/3 majority on Congress next year is because the Democrats don't have "an issue". They need something that they're for. They don't have to have a plan for how to solve everything, but they do need a plan to solve something. For several reasons. One big reason to pick an issue, any issue, is that right now, the major political debate is about national security (because that's the issue the GOP is debating), and frankly, it's a debate between the GOP and the GOP's straw man. And guess who's winning that debate? By picking an issue, be it immigration, Social Security, energy independance, (How to Win the War would be a really good one. The voters would really flock towards somebody who's got a Plan that might actually result in Winning the War), the D's can at least attempt to pick which topic is being debated, and by who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 we need immigrants to keep our population growing. Look at the falling populations of Europe and Japan. They will not be able to sustain their aging populations with the new work force. The US on the other hand, thanks to loads of immigration can afford to do it, or at least much better. No great stance against illegal immigration should be made until legal immigration can take the influx. Neither side really benefits from going against it. The Republicans have their xenophobes, and their business interests who are contradictory on this issue. The Dems don't want to upset hispanic minorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Oh, I think that any immigration platform, for either party, needs to prevent illegal immigration, but it also needs to greatly boost legal immigration. They need to boost legal immigration while also avoiding the third-rail "amnesty" word, though, and that's going to require some skillfull dancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 The breaking down of Unions.... The Unions are fighting to get them, not reject them.. As Unions are getting smaller. I made a promise that I would vote dem if the repubs didn't do something about immigration. The voted for the fence and i rejoiced.. Fence funding in budget just the start By Jerry Seper and Stephen Dinan THE WASHINGTON TIMES October 11, 2006 President Bush (AP) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- President Bush has signed off on a small down payment for a 700-mile fence along the U.S.-Mexico border, but legislators and fence advocates worry the barrier will never be fully funded and fear a lack of White House commitment. Lawmakers -- including Rep. Duncan Hunter, California Republican and chairman of the House Armed Services Committee -- are forcefully reminding the Bush administration and Homeland Security officials that Congress' "directive" that the fence be built is not optional. "We didn't put the fence as a goal or an option or something that should be mixed with other solutions, we made it mandatory," Mr. Hunter told The Washington Times yesterday. "It is not an option for the Department of Homeland Security. What part of 'shall' don't they understand?" The $33.8 billion Homeland Security funding bill, signed by Mr. Bush with much fanfare during ceremonies in Arizona last week, proposed $1.2 billion for fencing along with lighting, roads, sensors, cameras and other security devices. It does not include actual authorization on how, when or where it should be built. The House- and Senate-approved Secure Fence Act does that. It outlines specifics on the fence's construction but has not been sent to the president, who has vowed to sign it. Most proponents and opponents agree that the proposed $1.2 billion allocation is far short of the up to $12 billion it will take to build 700 miles of fencing, and some advocates have questioned both the White House and Congress' commitment to it. "Where the fence is concerned, to borrow a quote from the movies, 'Show me the money,'?" said Michael W. Cutler, a 31-year Immigration and Naturalization Service veteran who spent most of his career as a criminal investigator and intelligence specialist. Members of Congress said they will have to revisit the funding every year. "It's one thing to authorize. It's another thing to actually appropriate the money and do it," Sen. John Cornyn, Texas Republican and a supporter of fencing, said last week. So that's pretty much done.. it will take several years to build it and many more years of appropriation, but any fence that just HANGS there not built will be a picture worth taking each election... they will build it. No i can just vote against the incumbent . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskin81 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I'll beieve the fence when I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I'll beieve the fence when I see it. This isnt a Senators coming to D.C. thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted October 20, 2006 Author Share Posted October 20, 2006 The breaking down of Unions....The Unions are fighting to get them, not reject them.. As Unions are getting smaller. . Some Unions, yes, you are correct. They are willing to implode just to build up numbers. And it is disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 The D's are too weak kneed to come off as looking anything but "inclusive" Without being the party that appears to be "inclusive" the D's absolutley have nothing they are for Coming down AGAINST illegal immigration will be intrepeted as coming down AGAINST hispanics (by the sheep of course) And the D's are too weak kneed to do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskin81 Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 This isnt a Senators coming to D.C. thread... I dont get it> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 I dont get it> It took 30 plus years for DC to get baseball back Thats how long it'll take for any sort of wall to be built Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskin81 Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 It took 30 plus years for DC to get baseball backThats how long it'll take for any sort of wall to be built Get it now. And sadly enough its true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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