KC Joyner Chimes in on the Sean Taylor Roy Williams Debate

[TEK2000]

Yes, I do.

Good for you. I guess that's one way to rack up post counts.. post uselessly.

[TEK2000]

Oh wait a minute now let's not go there about problems off the field. You have no room to talk.

What you constitute as hard hitter is not an hard hitter .he's a horse collar yeah, I can see why we're are enivious

Yep.. that's why Roy Williams only had ONE penalty on him all season. He sure was horse collaring the heck out of people ALL SEASON!

[The Animal Trainer]

Okay... I don't know about anyone else but know I'm convinced. Sean has to be the greatest... :laugh:

I was tying to make a point that you're wasting your time here on Extremeskins.com telling everyone how Roy Williams is the better player. In my opinion, and about 99% of this message board's opinion, Sean Taylor is better. When I say, "he's the better player, I've seen it with my own eyes" I'm not trying to use that as objective evidence to convince you of my opinion. I am merely using that to demonstrate my point. This topic has been covered about 23,458,873 times on this board and it ends with a stalemate every time.

Your sarcasm and # of posts in this thread doesn't make Roy any better in anyone's eyes. This is just as useless a topic here as it would be over at cowboyszone.com. 99% of the posters there would say the same thing I've said but reverse the players' names. If you beat a dead horse 3 times or 100 times, like you're doing here, its the same result. In conclusion, we swept you last season...so Sean Taylor is better.

[SackMachine]

Put this discussion to rest already, they are both good safeties and they both hit hard. Both have had contreversial plays (horse collar, spitting). The only difference is ST is better at coverage then RW but RW is an SS and coverage isnt what hes asked to do.

The only way we can settle this is if we have them both stand at both sides of the field and run into each other, whoever is still concious, better yet, alive, wins.

Fact is if RW played for any other team, alot of us would think hes a top notch safety, and if ST played any other team, boys fan would think of him as a top notch safety.

[BigRay]

Good for you. I guess that's one way to rack up post counts.. post uselessly.

Everything cowboy fan posts in here is useless so STFU

[DaSkinzBaby]

See, it's impossible to compare them. Let's just save ourselves years of our lives and just admit that BOTH of these players are very good.

Um....your 15 and you are yet to mature, so your opinion isn't taken with much regard. Shawn Taylor is a game changing player, while Roy Williams is nothing but a collar tackler that had a few good hits, as fat as he is he should get an occasional hard hit. Even your version of God, Bill MAN TIT Parcells admitted that he is a biscuit away from being a linebacker Anyone that can't see Taylor is clearly better is in denial or can't see, besides how long has Roy I Love to Horse Collar Tackle Williams been in the league? and how long has Taylor? :doh: Instead of trying to get people to admit they are BOTH very good, Williams is OKAY while Taylor is a HOF Safety in the making ask TO and Glenn.....

[THEHEREAFTER]

In conclusion, we swept you last season...so Sean Taylor is better.

and I was actually starting to believe that you were making sense...... Brilliant!

[Dirk Diggler]

Convinient, given that your guy plays FS huh? Far too many holes and speculation here to be taken seriously. You build your team around the strength of your personnel.

I wonder why Ronnie Lott settled in at FS after a few years at SS...

The difference between SS and FS on some teams is like the difference between LT and RT: you're just going against a better caliber opponent and you have to defend more ground. On other teams the two positions are interchangable. But as RW discovered, there's nothing interchangable about it if you're a player who has limited coverage capabilities. I said it before and I'll say it again: there are two many "ifs" with Roy's game if you want him to be at his best...He has to play the strong side, he has to have healthy CBs, he can't cover WRs one on one. Getting exposed in intermediate areas by TEs is a lot less damaging than getting exposed deep by WRs. On the other hand, there are no limits to Taylor's game. Taylor could play both SS and FS at an incredibly high level but MOST teams would play him at free because it's just more important to team defense. I have no doubt that Taylor would put up phenomenal #s at SS but it's more important to this team's defense to have a great FS.

INTs and FFs are only some kinds of #s though. But what about the coverage sacks or incompletions caused by being a superior coverage safety? Or the footsteps WRs are hearing even 40 yards down the field? Those aren't plays? WRs may look for RW in the first 15-20 yards but once they get deep they know that they are in the clear.

A player like Taylor allows you to change the whole complexion of your defense. He frees up other players to blitz more and dictate to the offense. Just look at Ed Reed. For years he played SS/rover because that a allowed for him to be around the ball more and because they had a solid FS in Will Demps. But as soon as that FS spot became uncertain, he moved there. It will cost him #s but the defense will be better than if he stayed at SS.

[BigDFan5]

Yeah, and how did he do? :laugh:

Was Roy anywhere close to Sean's level? Would you think that Taylor couldn't do everything that Roy does as a SS and do it better?

Umm Roy made the Pro Bowl, and All pro at FS. I would say he done ok

[BigDFan5]

I wonder why Ronnie Lott settled in at FS after a few years at SS...

Its funny you mention Lott, since when he was asked who reminded him most of himself he replied Roy Williams

When I asked him if there is anyone he watches on Sundays that reminds him of himself, he said, "I like to grab my popcorn and watch Roy Williams play the game."

I can't think of a better football honor than to know Ronnie Lott liked to watch me play. How lucky you are, Roy Williams!

link

[ArmchairRedskin]

Umm Roy made the Pro Bowl, and All pro at FS. I would say he done ok

To be a good Free Safety you have to be good in coverage. In 2004 when he was forced to play a lot of coverage, he struggled. His All Pro honors came in 2003 and he played close to the LOS most of the time.

Here's what I honestly think.

You put Sean Taylor in Dallas and have him play Roy's postion, he would excel.

Conversely, I think if you put RW in our defense and have him play ST's postion, he would fail.

Sean has all the tools to succeed at SS, whereas RW doesn't have the coverage skills to excel at FS. There's no way you have Roy on guys like TO, Jerry Porter, Chad Johnson or Randy Moss in man coverage. He'd lose his lunch out there.

[Dirk Diggler]

Umm Roy made the Pro Bowl, and All pro at FS. I would say he done ok

Roy Williams has never been All-pro.

EDIT: My bad - I thought it was Dawkins and Harrison that year.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Um....your 15 and you are yet to mature, so your opinion isn't taken with much regard. Shawn Taylor is a game changing player, while Roy Williams is nothing but a collar tackler that had a few good hits, as fat as he is he should get an occasional hard hit. Even your version of God, Bill MAN TIT Parcells admitted that he is a biscuit away from being a linebacker Anyone that can't see Taylor is clearly better is in denial or can't see, besides how long has Roy I Love to Horse Collar Tackle Williams been in the league? and how long has Taylor? :doh: Instead of trying to get people to admit they are BOTH very good, Williams is OKAY while Taylor is a HOF Safety in the making ask TO and Glenn.....

Please tell me you're 15 and not 40?

[Skins4481]

You expect people to take you seriously when you throw out that kind of crap? You have yet to exhibit a good knowledge of football or the ability to discuss it, yet you are quick to call 99+% of Cowboy fans football idiots. Good form . Don't expect another response from me if you just want to throw idiotic comments out like that.

At this point, I lean towards Ed Reed based on his play during the previous few seasons. He certainly seems to be one of the absolute best coverage safeties. But I would rank Roy Williams higher than Reed in run support. This is a tough comparison because you're talking about Roy Williams who is one of the largest safeties versus Ed Reed one of the smaller safeties.

Roy Williams had the luxury of playing next to Darren Woodson for much of his 1st 2 seasons.. that certainly helps in his ability to focus on HIS JOB ONLY. Many times during the 2005 season, you could see Roy trying to cheat over to help take care of Keith Davis. In 2004 he was playing with Tony Dixon... who is not even in the NFL anymore. The problem is that Roy was used a lot more to his ability in his first 2 seasons... the last 2 seasons he's been playing almost exclusively in coverage due to the fact that our Free Safeties were so poor.

I throw out that kind of crap because I've had bad experiences with a bunch of jackasses from any Cowboys board I've been to. I agree the IQ thing was a bit too much but EVERY board I've been to (CZ, ESPN) I've encountered a rather large number of jackass Cowboys fans. EASILY more than any other team. I also dont care what you think about my knowledge of football. Its kind of funny when you say that, seeing as you have displayed next to nothing in terms of football knowledge.

Roy Williams' best years were his first two when he had a good Safety in Darren Woodson playing next to him. Your making excuses for Roy Williams. He was great when he had Woodson next to him. Well guess what? Sean Taylor NEVER has had the luxury of playing with a Safety of Woodson's caliber. He has played alongside Ryan Clark, an UDFA who the Giants(with their :pooh: secondary) cut.

[Skins4481]

Not a very smart statement considering Roy's natural position is SS. You speak as if he's a FS who was demoted to SS.

Werent you the one who made that pretty stupid statement comparing Sean Taylor being picked 5th OVERALL to Pat Watkins being picked in the 5th ROUND? Yea you should know plenty about 'not very smart' statements.

[Skins4481]

This has been done, and RW keeps winning.

We both know that's bull****. Why dont we put up a poll and see who wins? And no Cowboys or Redskins fans obviously.

[THEHEREAFTER]

The difference between SS and FS on some teams is like the difference between LT and RT: you're just going against a better caliber opponent and you have to defend more ground. On other teams the two positions are interchangable.

I'm sorry but this just makes absolutely no sense. You're trying to hard to make a point.

But as RW discovered, there's nothing interchangable about it if you're a player who has limited coverage capabilities.

RW's limited coverage capabilities are a myth and a legend on extremeskins. Did you see his int. in deep in coverage vs. Carolina last year? Of course not! Do you watch every play of every Cowboy game? All you have are two plays against your team in which he shared responsibility for two long passes against one of the faster receivers in the league. RW is not the best cover safety but he's hardly the "liability," that you continue to fall back on, according to those who watch his every play including KC Joyner. What you fail to realize is that it's possible to have such an impact based on your strengths to a point where this may supersede areas where one might be average. For example, Lawrence Taylor is one of the best OLB to play the game but I'm sure you can find several better in coverage.

I said it before and I'll say it again: there are two many "ifs" with Roy's game if you want him to be at his best...He has to play the strong side

It's smart to take advantage of his strengths and put him in a position to succeed? RW, John Lynch, Steve A****er. They're (were) all damn good strong safeties. This is where they're best.

he has to have healthy CBs

What?

, he can't cover WRs one on one.

Peyton Manning wont rush for 100 yards either..

Taylor could play both SS and FS at an incredibly high level but MOST teams would play him at free because it's just more important to team defense.

Interesting? I happen to think that all 11 positions on a defense are very important. I've seen dominating defenses who's strength was their front 7 with an adequate secondary. Every team has role players. You're not going to have pro-bowl talent at every defensive position but by your logic the most talented piece of EVERY secondary is and should be the FS? I'm sure you can't fathom a defense with a menacing dominant SS with merely an adequate "role playing" "centerfielding" FS?

I have no doubt that Taylor would put up phenomenal #s at SS but it's more important to this team's defense to have a great FS.

And... so what. .. the skins will do what's best for them.. Perhaps Brian Urlacher should be moved to FREE SAFETY since he's the most talented player on the Bears D. Maybe then he'll become more important? :doh: I have a hunch that if GW announced tommorow that he's playing Taylor at SS, you'd do more peddling and spinning than Greg LaMond.

WRs may look for RW in the first 15-20 yards but once they get deep they know that they are in the clear.

Okay so I'm assuming that you've played WR against RW or personally interviewed those who have? I'm 25 yards down the field now! RW can't possibly hit me now? I've never seen a huge RW hit more than 20 yards down the field? Get Real!

A player like Taylor allows you to change the whole complexion of your defense. He frees up other players to blitz more and dictate to the offense.

I agree. It's great to have a good FS. RW will be the one blitzing though at SS. The one blitzing has to get the sack which is also important right? You see how different players do different things because they excell at different positions? Do you understand how all 11 players RELY and feed off one another?

Just look at Ed Reed. For years he played SS/rover because that a allowed for him to be around the ball more and because they had a solid FS in Will Demps. But as soon as that FS spot became uncertain, he moved there. It will cost him #s but the defense will be better than if he stayed at SS.

Ed Reed is better suited to play FS.

[THEHEREAFTER]

We both know that's bull****. Why dont we put up a poll and see who wins? And no Cowboys or Redskins fans obviously.

There's a poll done at the end of every year. Something tells me that if ST ever makes a pro-bowl it won't be due to popularity?

[Skins4481]

And you have evidence to prove otherwise?

So many people just throwing out comments without anything to support it.

I already showed you one evidence where a football analyst picked Sean Taylor over Roy Williams.

Oh by the way, I have evidence of a non-skins or boys fan who believes Sean Taylor is the "biggest hitting DB in the game."

http://www.fantasysportstrades.com/nfls-best-defensive-player-2k5-troy-polamalu/

[THEHEREAFTER]

Werent you the one who made that pretty stupid statement comparing Sean Taylor being picked 5th OVERALL to Pat Watkins being picked in the 5th ROUND? Yea you should know plenty about 'not very smart' statements.

Ummm, I have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts straight or go and find the quote genius?

[Skins4481]

There's a poll done at the end of every year. Something tells me that if ST ever makes a pro-bowl it won't be due to popularity?

Not as much as it will if Roy Williams does. The Cowboys are the most popular team in America. One reason why they are called America's team. They also get a lot of attention from the media. Since the Cowboys are the more popular team, their good players gain a lot of popularity.

[Skins4481]

Ummm, I have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts straight or go and find the quote genius?

If that truely wasnt you then I apologize. I've mistaken you for another Cowboys fan who made that stupid comparison.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Not as much as it will if Roy Williams does. The Cowboys are the most popular team in America. One reason why they are called America's team. They also get a lot of attention from the media. Since the Cowboys are the more popular team, their good players gain a lot of popularity.

I won't argue this but of course you can see some of the holes in your theory. You've atleast stated that he's good though so where getting somewhere. RW is simply a game changer. He causes turnovers, terrorizes and intimidates all over the field. There are alot of Cowboys that would have made pro-bowls if it were as easy as simply donning a star on your helmet.

[THEHEREAFTER]

If that truely wasnt you then I apologize. I've mistaken you for another Cowboys fan who made that stupid comparison.

Watkins vs. Taylor? That's not even worth discussing. Please understand that in all of this discussion, I like ST. I just find it funny debating this with skins fans knowing full well that they would embrace RW in a hearbeat if he was your SS tomorrow. It is very important for skins fans for ST to be better than RW as WOU explained earlier in the thread. ST HAS to be better. If RW was moved to LB these comparison debates would be just as intense and just as redundant.

[Skins4481]

I won't argue this but of course you can see some of the holes in your theory. You've atleast stated that he's good though so where getting somewhere. RW is simply a game changer. He causes turnovers, terrorizes and intimidates all over the field. There are alot of Cowboys that would have made pro-bowls if it were as easy as simply donning a star on your helmet.

I never said Roy Williams WASNT good. This is not the discussion we're having here. Roy Williams is a real good safety. Definitely one of the better ones in the league.

The discussion here is about who is the better player. I honestly believe that Sean Taylor is the better player. The way I look at it is like this: Sean Taylor can do everything Roy Williams can do and more but Roy Williams CAN NOT do everything Sean Taylor can do.