Ladies and Gentlemen...this is the beginning of World War III.

[Zguy28]

I honestly never read the text of the Murtha Bill until just now ... I suppose I tend to ignore the wackos on both sides, which is good advice for everyone in this thread. But after doing some research, I found out that oddly enough it was introduced in November 2005 and has had no action since then ... I suppose that could qualify as an "actual proposal," but a bill with such bare-bones language could never actually come to more than a symbolic vote.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.j.res.00073:

Kerry never proposed any such legislation, but Mitch McConnell did bring such legislation to the floor a month ago, supposedly based on Kerry's remarks, and six Democrats, including Kerry, voted to bring it to a debate, but 94 Senators voted to table it.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00174

Still, as far as I can tell, no serious legislation has been written nor has anything been voted upon on the merits. If there have been any calls for immediate withdrawal, they have been purely political, on both sides.

I know many people have said it, and they do so because they are politicians and they are in the business of getting votes - because there are people that want it so, and we are a democracy. However, there is a big difference between what people say that can be taken out of context, and what people actually do as legislators, and it's pretty clear to me that nobody has seriously proposed immediate withdrawal. Implying that the Democratic Party supports that position is disingenuous IMO.

What's funny is that I don't think Murtha is wacko by any means; and I'm a conservative Repub. I just think he's wrong. I think he has the right intentions, but good intentions aren't always right. I feel the same way about Sen. Frist. I believe he's wrong to support Embryonic Stem-cell research. He's not crazy either.

O, and I think he and his Dem cohorts are very serious about a pullout.

[DjTj]

Joe Biden on Meet The Press yesterday. He went on and on about how these regimes were of no threat to the US.

ANd for the record, I actually think Joe Biden is a very smart Democrat. He had my support up until what I saw yesterday.

I guess you're fixated on this statement:

SEN. BIDEN: If that—if we had reason to believe that missile was a nuclear-tipped missile—which no one thought it was—then I would not hesitate to take it out and not worry about—I’d worry about the consequences, but I would be prepared for the consequences. The possibility is that North Korea would use its artillery shells on South Korea and start a Korean war. The greater concern, though, is that what’s going to happen here is South Korea—understanding we have no real policy—is going to decide three years from now along with Japan, it need be a nuclear power. And you end up having a Korean peninsula that’s nuclearized, you have Japan a nuclear power, you have China going from 18 to 888 ICBMs, India following suit, etc. That’s my worry.

But let’s put this in perspective here. The idea that Iran and/or, and/or South Korea—or North Korea, presents a strategic threat to us from nuclear weapons now is not real, is not real. We have alternatives and plans—we should have plans to be able to deal with the isolation of them and, if need be, there can come a time when we will have to use all the force available to us. But it would be nice to straighten some things out in the meantime.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13839698/page/4/

Sounds to me like he is specifically talking about the nuclear capability of Iran and North Korea. He isn't saying there's no threat at all, and he specifically said he's worried about the Asian situation a few years down the line. Earlier in the show he talked a lot about the threat of Hezbollah and Syria in destabilizing the region.

You're only hearing what you want to hear. If you're going to fixate on a few sentences and write off the entire Democratic Party, I think you might as well write out a $2,000 check to the RNC and be done with it.

[Ellis]

NO, I feel he belittles the situation and makes it sound less threatening.

That's all.

And it's ok for me to think that.

I think he has good ideas but he needs to realize that diplomacy (isolation) has not worked. North Korea knows they can mess around and there's nothing we'll do BUT diplomacy. North Korea laughed at the UN resolution from a few days ago.

Joe Biden needs to take that in to consideration when he speaks about isolating those regimes. They don't care about that. They already ARE isolated.

I think Joe has good ideas, I'll give him that. But he needs to realize that his ideas must be much tougher than diplomacy.

[NattyLight]

natty go stick your head in the toilet and talk to the **** down there, itll listen better

ive owned you before and ill own you and your twisted opinions again if i have to.

The fact remains that diplomacy will not generate a ripple of change in this region. So what's worse? People having a false sense of peace under the façade of "ceasefire" and get pummeled by a suicide bomber on their way to work...or people understanding there's a war going and someone needs to end it (win it) once and for all?

[georgiaredskin]

My bad ya'll. I don't post in the 'gate too often, so I didn't notice the surplus of these threads. But hopefully my though-out rhetoric was differentiating from other WWIII posts.

Go 'Skins.

I did enjoy your spin on things, thanks freak. (i don't think i've ever said that before)

I don't turn on the tube much. So I love these types of threads keeping me up-to-date, especially in layman's terms and summaries.

So, thank you ALL for your WWIII is gonna start threads.

btw, loved the "and go skins". :laugh: And I agree Jumbo. There are too many good Redskins seasons ahead, and seasons of our life to enfold. Just now that I have all of these blessings coming, things are heating up for the end of the world. Not yet!

[DjTj]

What's funny is that I don't think Murtha is wacko by any means; and I'm a conservative Repub. I just think he's wrong. I think he has the right intentions, but good intentions aren't always right. I feel the same way about Sen. Frist. I believe he's wrong to support Embryonic Stem-cell research. He's not crazy either.

O, and I think he and his Dem cohorts are very serious about a pullout.

I think they are all serious about the idea of a pullout, but nobody is yet serious about an actual pullout. We might get there by 2008, but right now it's just politics.

Also, you need to be careful with terms like "he and his Dem cohorts." You can probably point to his 105 co-sponsors, which is just over half the Democrats in the House of Representatives. I think half is about right for the support of some hypothetical pullout in the Democratic Party, but the real consensus is around something like the Levin/Reed proposal.

http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=257387

[Ellis]

The fact remains that diplomacy will not generate a ripple of change in this region. So what's worse? People having a false sense of peace under the façade of "ceasefire" and get pummeled by a suicide bomber on their way to work...or people understanding there's a war going and someone needs to end it (win it) once and for all?

BINGO. and this is why the statements Joe Biden made on MTP are gravely wrong.

Diplomacy is what North Korea wants because they know that when we sit down and offer them some aid (money, food), all they have to do is stop for a little bit to save face... and then when the money runs out, they'll start messing around again and make the area upset. And then what happens? we come back in and give them MORE money to calm down and stop.

ANd the cycle repeats itself... over and over again.

THAT'S HOW THESE RETARDS WORK.

They know we'll give em money to shut up and calm down. And this is what they have to do to get that money... make us feel uneasy about the region.

The time for diplomacy is over. It's time to roll up the shirt sleeves and lay the law down. It's time for these regimes to shape up or get out of the way.

[Midnight Judges]

What's funny is that I don't think Murtha is wacko by any means; and I'm a conservative Repub. I just think he's wrong. I think he has the right intentions, but good intentions aren't always right. I feel the same way about Sen. Frist. I believe he's wrong to support Embryonic Stem-cell research. He's not crazy either.

O, and I think he and his Dem cohorts are very serious about a pullout.

Only 7 Democrats in the Senate voted for the pull out plan. A significantly higher number voted for the phased redeployment but right wing news seems to be telling it's listeners there was only one Democrat plan so they could label the entire party with the cut and run tag line.

IMO, Murtha is a little off his rocker. An immediate pull-out from Iraq would create undeniable havoc. Even more so than there is already. The phased-redeployment seems like more of a reasonable and level-headed approach. Unfortunately, I think Murtha is just politicking. It's sad really.

edit: that's the second time today I made a post only to look up and see DJTJ had typed something very similar. At least this time I covered the Senate and he covered the house.

[Midnight Judges]

I think they are all serious about the idea of a pullout, but nobody is yet serious about an actual pullout. We might get there by 2008, but right now it's just politics.

Also, you need to be careful with terms like "he and his Dem cohorts." You can probably point to his 105 co-sponsors, which is just over half the Democrats in the House of Representatives. I think half is about right for the support of some hypothetical pullout in the Democratic Party, but the real consensus is around something like the Levin/Reed proposal.

http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=257387

Out of curiosity, are you a Levin-supporter at all? He is the Senator that best represents me at this time. IMO he would make a great President but polling suggests peope are reluctant to vote for a 5 foot tall bald fat guy.

[DjTj]

NO, I feel he belittles the situation and makes it sound less threatening.

That's all.

And it's ok for me to think that.

Of course it's okay for you to think that. It's okay for you to think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean it's right.

I think Joe has good ideas, I'll give him that. But he needs to realize that his ideas must be much tougher than diplomacy.

I don't know if you turned off the TV in the middle of the interview, but just a little down the page on the link I provide, you'll see this:

SEN. BIDEN: I, I think it has. But let me tell you, let me—a slightly different prescription. That, that bomb in the rusty hull of a Panamanian tanker, that is something that I talked about on your show three and a half years ago. What have we done? We’ve done nothing in terms of homeland security. We have $43 billion that the homeland security—that the 9/11 commission said in December we should be spending on areas we’re getting D’s and C’s. We haven’t spent it at all. Instead—we’ll disagree here—instead we decide to give a $53 billion tax cut to people making over a million bucks a year. Our priorities are backwards, Tim.

Number two, real simple message sent to the Koreans. This is—I worry about this eighth-grade mentality they have up there. “You do something like that, we will annihilate you.” We have the complete capacity to annihilate them, number two.

Number three, we should be talking about how we’re going to proceed here. John Kennedy—quoting a muscular Democrat—John Kennedy said we should never negotiate out of fear, we should never fear negotiation. We’re so big and so strong, the idea that we’re not sitting down having a come to the—an altar call with the leader of North Korea in a private meeting and saying, “Jack, let’s tell you what the deal is here.”

[Bad Man Burgendy & Gold]

Did Biden say all of that. I was telling people in the last election that I wanted this man to be president, but the Democrats will probably overlook him again

[Ellis]

I think diplomacy has lost it's credibility on dealing with North Korea.

The past has proven that.

Bro, North Korea is strong-arming us into diplomacy.

I think enough is enough.

Joe Bidens ideas were good ideas years ago. We should have done years ago what he's suggesting to do now. THe sit down one-on-one talk. BUt like one of them said (Joe or Newt, can't remember)... inviting Kim Jung Il to DC for a sit down one-on-one talk would do nothing more than legitimize him. F that.

[Ellis]

Did Biden say all of that. I was telling people in the last election that I wanted this man to be president, but the Democrats will probably overlook him again

I believe he's running for 2008. If he can get a bit tougher on his opinions on foreign issues, I *might* vote for him. I like Joe. But I fear he doesn't put enough credibility to the threats NK and other regimes are capable of to our alies and ourselves.

That's all.

[DjTj]

Out of curiosity, are you a Levin-supporter at all? He is the Senator that best represents me at this time. IMO he would make a great President but polling suggests peope are reluctant to vote for a 5 foot tall bald fat guy.

I honestly don't know much about him, but I've liked what I've seen. I like a number of those veteran Senators like Levin and Biden who are generally more interested in getting things done than playing politics.

[Air Force Cane]

Natty Light and Ellis are exactly correct.

and Joe Biden has to be one of the dumbest senators we have. just another reason to vote against Hillary Clinton- to prevent Secretary of State Biden :doh:

[Cdowwe]

Little late in the thread, as usual, but whats everyone think of this. In WWI and WWII, it seemed Americans had alot more in common with its brothers in arms (GB, Canada, France) than we do now with Israel. Anyone think itd be alot harder to gather numbers, if it became necessary, because of this? I know alot of people had German and Italian roots as well. It just seems like alot more people would be eager to defend England, or the rest of Europe, back then because of relatives and ancestors, than Israel now. Maybe just a ramble?

[Zguy28]

Only 7 Democrats in the Senate voted for the pull out plan. A significantly higher number voted for the phased redeployment but right wing news seems to be telling it's listeners there was only one Democrat plan so they could label the entire party with the cut and run tag line.[/Quote] I got it from the Wash Post. I guess that's right-wing now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111700794.html

From article:

A few dozen other House Democrats have called for withdrawing from Iraq as soon as possible. But most are liberals who voted against going to war, and they have drawn modest attention. Murtha is a hawkish ex-Marine who voted for the war and has close ties to the military.House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) told colleagues at a closed meeting yesterday morning that she, too, would advocate an immediate troop withdrawal, according to several who attended. But by day's end, Pelosi -- a liberal who has sharply criticized Bush's handling of the war -- chose merely to praise Murtha and say he deserved to have "his day."

The party's liberal base is clamoring for the United States to leave Iraq as soon as possible.

Emphasis mine.

IMO, Murtha is a little off his rocker.... Unfortunately, I think Murtha is just politicking. It's sad really.

I disagree. I think he is just emotional and concerned for our boys. The man was crying at the time, for goodness sake! Again, I just think he's wrong, not crazy. I'll be honest if anyone is off their rocker in the Democratic Party its Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean.:doh: I personally think the Democrats would get much more respect if they had people like Wes Clark or John Edwards in their leadership instead of two ultra-liberals.:2cents:

An immediate pull-out from Iraq would create undeniable havoc. Even more so than there is already. The phased-redeployment seems like more of a reasonable and level-headed approach.

I agree.

[Destino]

Little late in the thread, as usual, but whats everyone think of this. In WWI and WWII, it seemed Americans had alot more in common with its brothers in arms (GB, Canada, France) than we do now with Israel. Anyone think itd be alot harder to gather numbers, if it became necessary, because of this? I know alot of people had German and Italian roots as well. It just seems like alot more people would be eager to defend England, or the rest of Europe, back then because of relatives and ancestors, than Israel now. Maybe just a ramble?

Don't forget that while we may not have as much in common with Israel as we do with Western Europe we do share one very important thing - a common enemy. Islamic extremism managed to hit us hard and I don't think the US is done fighting back yet.

[Midnight Judges]

I got it from the Wash Post. I guess that's right-wing now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111700794.html

From article:

Emphasis mine.

I disagree. I think he is just emotional and concerned for our boys. The man was crying at the time, for goodness sake! Again, I just think he's wrong, not crazy. I'll be honest if anyone is off their rocker in the Democratic Party its Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean.:doh: I personally think the Democrats would get much more respect if they had people like Wes Clark or John Edwards in their leadership instead of two ultra-liberals.:2cents:

I agree.

Points taken ZGUY. That was a quality post on your part.

[jbooma]

Nothing to see here, according to Israel the campaign will only last a couple of more weeks then they will be done. It is very clear this has been planned out completely and they had a specific goal.

[mcarey032]

Don't think that world war III won't happen on this one. I can tell you that Iran would be foolish to do anything of nuclear attack. I believe that israel would strike first if they do believe that Iran would try and get involved.