Mass 2ndgrade teacher reads 'gay marriage' book (diversity)

[rincewind]

come on rince. You've always seemed to be a smart guy in the posts of yours that I've read. I'm sure you can put 2+2 together and come up with 22.

I highly doubt this book would not have been read to kids in a classroom in Texas. Yet it was read to kids in a classroom in Massachusetts. There's a great cultural, political and moral chasm between those two places and I think that plays a lot into why this book was read in one place and wouldn't be read in the other.

That's because the state as a whole is more liberal leaning - i just didn't see the need to turn this into a political debate. There are plenty of other threads where people can spread there political agendas.

[dfitzo53]

oh i know this... but that's the law of the school system, and I follow it. If a child asks a question like that, I refer him to his parents. Any question that is asked that we can't answer, we have to say a pretty scripted answer that basically tells them to ask their parents. We don't want angry parents.

I went to school in Fairfax County, and I know that the school system is terrified of angry parents. I also know you're just doing your job. My complaint is with the system, not the way you're handling it.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Texas is more immoral the Mass?

LOL. That's funny. The thought that there's somebody who might actually have misunderstood what I meant makes me want to puke; but that's still funny.

[Art Monk Fan]

So you've had your wife read about boys kissing boys to the class? Gay kissing feels wrong to them, but boys kissing girls illicits no questions? Do your kids know about homosexuality? Does your 4 year old pester you with questions about it every day?

Combative much?

My wife teaches in Montgomery County, MD and has not read the book in question to her students. However, you'd be surprised what kids will talk to their teachers about that they'll not discuss at home. My wife has to deal with a lot of issues at school that stem from the lifestyle choices that parents make at home. She's got one kid now whose entire future is hanging in the balance right now. He's lashing out violently and falling far behind his classmates in every subject. The root cause? Mom decided she's gay and he gets to adjust to the other woman who just moved in. He calls her Dad because he doesn't know what else to call her, hates her, hates himself for hating her, and is generally so confused he's crawling out of his own skin.

A prince kissing a princess doesn't illicit questions about sexuality in young elementary age kids — they think it's yucky, but they understand it as natural. It may not fit your political agenda, but it's true.

As for my own kids, the 14 year-old knows a lot more than the 4 year-old; my 18-month old just started walking. My wife's favorite cousin is gay and his partner is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. I still don't want you pushing your political agenda on my kids in 2nd grade. Save the sexual politics for the adults and let the kids enjoy their innocence while it lasts.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

That's because the state as a whole is more liberal leaning - i just didn't see the need to turn this into a political debate. There are plenty of other threads where people can spread there political agendas.

Unfortunately, in the Communistwealth of Massachusetts EVERYTHING to do with homosexuality, gay marriage, gay rights, etc... is tied to politics. It would be nice to be able to separate the two things but it's just not going to happen. Not with the way things have happened around here.

[rincewind]

As for my own kids, the 14 year-old knows a lot more than the 4 year-old; my 18-month old just started walking. My wife's favorite cousin is gay and his partner is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. I still don't want you pushing your political agenda on my kids in 2nd grade. Save the sexual politics for the adults and let the kids enjoy their innocence while it lasts.

As was with ya until that last sentence. Why imply that that 'gayness' suggests a loss of innocence? Again - i don't see how this book has ANYTHING to do with sex, its just a kiss.

[MissU28]

Evolution is not fully accepted, yet it is still taught...

I was never taught evolution...aside from Darwin in the Oceanography aspect- and that was an elective. Evolution is taught in high school, and usually through a Science course that a child can choose to take or not. Also, in most science classes I've taken, theories are described as they are- theories. They are taught as accepted reasons for certain phenomena, but no scientist will tell you that something is a fact when there is no substantial proof. You can't really compare evolution to gay relationships, though.

And I don't think it was right of this teacher to read this book to her kids. Every day I have to really think about the things I read or show my class (we can't even show them PG movies unless they've been previously approved by the school system). I would never read a book about homosexuality to my class, no matter how slight the message is. Especially if my class was that young. Yes, we promote diversity, and yes, in an ideal world we could talk about whatever we wanted with our children and expect them to grow up totally blinded to race/religion/creed/sexuality. BUT... it WILL bring up a whole string of questions especially about sexual behavior because kids learn in sex ed that only a man and woman can make a baby. They learn that the ONLY reason to have sex is to have a baby, and not to do that until they're married. When they are older (in high school and middle school) they go into the "taboo" topics. While some may think this is too late for kids, it really should be up to the parents on what their kids learn.

[Art Monk Fan]

Not inconvenient to me at all - i'm all for teaching just as much about homosexuality as about hetrosexuality. I think the problem here is everybody says that the question that follow will be uncomfortable - i say BS. Teach the kid there is nothing wrong with it and that some princes like to kiss other princes. There is NO NEED to make this a sexual education issue - its just a kiss.

I think you're either very niave or you're being purposely obtuse, here. The book in question only exists to forward acceptance of the gay lifestyle. It was selected and read in that school specifically to push acceptance of the gay lifestyle. Homosexuality is about sexual preference, so any discussion involves some amount of sex ed. The questions you're going to get out of kids after reading this story will mostly be the same: "Why?" And they'll just keep asking that same little question after every answer, until you find yourself talking about gay sex with an 8 year old.

[rincewind]

I think it should be said that this is one of the main reasons i would never teach this age group. So, admitedly, it is easy for me to sit back and say i would or wouldn't teach something - because the simple truth of the matter is i wouldn't ever have to teach any of it. (By the way - i think this goes for ALL non-teachers on both sides of this debate)

[gchwood]

Good - lets listen to a 2,000 year old book that was written with an overly political slant about how we feel about homosexuality. While were at it lets only pick out that part - not the part that teaches tolerence, forgiveness, understanding, and love for our fellow man. [/Quote]

ah, rince now you are treading on my realm. You are absolutley right that the Bible says to love and forgive, but it also says to detest sin. Therefore You love the person but hate the action, just as I would if my dad decided to murder someone, I would still love him but I would hate the actions that he has performed.

Funny how you say that the Bible has a political slant when it was written before the modern political system, perhaps we as humans are politicizing (sp?) this text?

I get akick out of you all that say that the Bible is contradictory and people only pick and choose what they want, when you just don't understand what it is saying. Like I said before you should never ever hate a person, infact you should love them, but you should always hate the acts of sin, and the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin.

Plus - i don't see how this is sexual education if its just a kiss. :whoknows:

If it is teaching about Sexual Orientations than it is sexual education. I don't care if they are teaching about kissing between homosexuals or heterosexuals. Personally I beleive that sex education should not have any place in the school system and that is what parents are for, you actually raise and teach their children these kinds of things

[rincewind]

I think you're either very niave or you're being purposely obtuse, here. The book in question only exists to forward acceptance of the gay lifestyle. It was selected and read in that school specifically to push acceptance of the gay lifestyle.

Why does it have to be pushing the acceptance of the gay lifestyle? Is every fairy tale that ends with the prince kissing the princess promoting a heter0sexual lifestyle? Maybe its time we stop seeing the gay prince as something to thought of as odd and different - he's just a prince.

[webnarc]

Well, if you only pick and choose parts of it Rince, you might as well not listen to any of it. It does teach us that, but for people the believe in it, I can telly ou dont, you can not just pick the parts that you like, and leave the parts you dont like. The bible says its wrong, so its wrong. But fo those of you who dont believe in it, that doesnt mean a thing. And cant really got into another one of those religious debates which too often turn into nothing in here. :2cents:

Where exactly in the bible does it say that gay marriage and homesexuality is wrong? Serious question because I've never been able to find that passage.

[rincewind]

ah, rince now you are treading on my realm. You are absolutley right that the Bible says to love and forgive, but it also says to detest sin. Therefore You love the person but hate the action, just as I would if my dad decided to murder someone, I would still love him but I would hate the actions that he has performed.

Funny how you say that the Bible has a political slant when it was written before the modern political system, perhaps we as humans are politicizing (sp?) this text?

I get akick out of you all that say that the Bible is contradictory and people only pick and choose what they want, when you just don't understand what it is saying. Like I said before you should never ever hate a person, infact you should love them, but you should always hate the acts of sin, and the Bible says that hom0sexuality is a sin.

As i told someone in a PM - i feel that hom0sexuality is one 'sin' where you can not seperate the 'sin' from the 'sinner' and therefore, to hate the 'sin' is to hate the 'sinner'

If it is teaching about Sexual Orientations than it is sexual education. I don't care if they are teaching about kissing between hom0sexuals or heter0sexuals. Personally I beleive that sex education should not have any place in the school system and that is what parents are for, you actually raise and teach their children these kinds of things

Thats fine with me - as long as your willing to say that across the board (hom0 and heter0 sexual)

[GrimReefa]

The Bible also says that eating shellfish is a sin.

In fact, the same book (Leviticus) which prohibits homosexuality also prohibits, in language no less strict.

- lying "with a woman during her sickness (period) and uncover[ing] her nakedness." (LEV 20:18)

- "cut[ting] the hair at the sides of your head, or clip[ping] off the edges of your beard." (LEV 19:27)

- eating "swine" (LEV 11:7)

- "plant[ing] your field with two kinds of seed." (LEV 19:19)

-"wear[ing] material woven of two kinds of materials." (LEV 19:19)

-"eat[ting the] flesh" of "whatever in the water does not have fins or scales." (LEV 11:11, 11:12)

So, what does Leviticus allow?

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (LEV 25:44, 25:45)

That's right, the SAME EXACT BOOK which was used by what amounted to the Christian right in the 18 and 19th centuries to justify slavery is being used in the 20th and 21st centuries to justify intolerance and bigotry from homophobes.

Over the course of time, the slavery defense was stamped out in this country, and almost everyone now agrees that slavery was the abomination, despite what it says in the Bible. Over the course of time, the same will hold true with regards to homosexuality. You can't stop time.

As for this book, it is no more offensive than any story where a prince and a princess end up together. To say otherwise is to practice ACTIVE bigotry (there's no other way to put it). Teaching tolerance of others to our children will not rob them of their innocence, certainly no more than seeing a homosexual couple holding hands or kissing in public would. Do you want to demand that homosexuals (and homosexuals only, judging from your fairy tail bias) be banned from PDAs?

Oh, that's right, some of you do.

Grow up.

[gchwood]

That's because the state as a whole is more liberal leaning - i just didn't see the need to turn this into a political debate. There are plenty of other threads where people can spread there political agendas.

I don't think that New York would have done this either and it has a pretty liberal political leaning. Fact is that sex ed doesn't belong in elementary school

[fight_on_til_you_have_won]

Seven isn't too young for a parent to talk with their kids about this kind of stuff, but I think it's a little young for a classroom setting. :2cents:

[chomerics]

Yes, gay marriage is legal in the Communistwealth. That doesn't mean that everyone here agrees with it, likes it, or accepts it. Especially since the CITIZENS never got a say in the matter. Let's also remember that just because something is legal doesn't necessarily make it Right.

Ummm, it does make it RIGHT, it is the LAW in OUR state. If you don't like the LAW, then elect someone who can change it. . .but then again, you are in the minority in Massachusettes, and the law will NEVER change back to your draconian view of morality. . .thank the invisible almighty omniscient being you believe in for that.

It's not so much a "gay sexual agenda" as acceptance of a lifestyle that's likely not in keeping with the morals and values of many of these kids' families.

The last time I looked, you CAN be gay and be married in our state, so it IS keeping with the MORALS and VALUES or the Commonwealth. Just because your idea of morality is keeping with the Puritains that sex is evil, doesn't mean the rest of the Commonwealth has to live by your rules. If you don't like the RULES OF OUR STATE, then you have 2 choices, either try to change them or move.

As for the "fairy tale" aspect of this whole thing... I'm all for teaching kids the REAL Grimm's Fairy Tales. In their original versions. You know, the ones that were designed to scare the crap out of kids and keep them in line through fear.

You mean like the president trying to keep the population in line by fearing the American public wioth his "mushroom cloud" talk? Yea, fear only works for so long. . .

[gchwood]

The Bible also says that eating shellfish is a sin.

So? You are not going to hell for being gay any more than you are for eating shellfish (even though that really pertains to those who live by the old covenant). Christ is the only way to avoid hell whether it be because you ate unclean foods or have homosexual relations

[rincewind]

I don't think that New York would have done this either and it has a pretty liberal political leaning. Fact is that sex ed doesn't belong in elementary school

Sorry, still don't see how this is Sex Ed.

[Destino]

Personally I beleive that sex education should not have any place in the school system and that is what parents are for, you actually raise and teach their children these kinds of things

And this is where I have to disagree strongly. I really have a problem with risking the health of people and others on the idea that parents will actually do their jobs and that kids will actually listen. If HIV and other diseases were not passed on to others I wouldn't mind, but one uneducated person out there puts others at risk.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Why does it have to be pushing the acceptance of the gay lifestyle? Is every fairy tale that ends with the prince kissing the princess promoting a heter0sexual lifestyle? Maybe its time we stop seeing the gay prince as something to thought of as odd and different - he's just a prince.

Actually, the answer to your question is pretty much a YES, and I'll give you the prime example..... "La Mort du Arthur".

Yep, King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. It's a work of FICTION. It holds little to no basis in the reality of the time, place or history. Yet, it became so widely beloved AND BELIEVED in its time period that the concepts of Chivalry & Courtly Love that were pretty much INTRODUCED to European society in that work are STILL a staple of our philosophy today.

[rincewind]

Actually, the answer to your question is pretty much a YES, and I'll give you the prime example..... "La Mort du Arthur".

Yep, King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. It's a work of FICTION. It holds little to no basis in the reality of the time, place or history. Yet, it became so widely beloved AND BELIEVED in its time period that the concepts of Chivalry & Courtly Love that were pretty much INTRODUCED to European society in that work are STILL a staple of our philosophy today.

Okay, so people will just come to accept and understand hom0sexuality... *shudder*

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Ummm, it does make it RIGHT, it is the LAW in OUR state. If you don't like the LAW, then elect someone who can change it. . .but then again, you are in the minority in Massachusettes, and the law will NEVER change back to your draconian view of morality. . .thank the invisible almighty omniscient being you believe in for that.

No. I'm talking Right and Wrong, not legal and illegal. There's a HUGE difference. But I wouldn't expect you to be able to comprehend that Chom. Let's put gay marriage to a VOTE and then we'll see who is in the minority.

Oh, and you don't have any idea who or what MY "God" is, so please don't pretend that you do.

The last time I looked, you CAN be gay and be married in our state, so it IS keeping with the MORALS and VALUES or the Commonwealth. Just because your idea of morality is keeping with the Puritains that sex is evil, doesn't mean the rest of the Commonwealth has to live by your rules. If you don't like the RULES OF OUR STATE, then you have 2 choices, either try to change them or move.

No. It's within the legal parameters of the Communistwealth. Your belief that it is within the morals and values of the citizens won't hold a shred or reality until the CITIZENS of Massachusetts are given the chance to vote on it. Believe me, there are a number of us who are working to try and change the law. By one means or another.

[Goaldeje]

Not inconvenient to me at all - i'm all for teaching just as much about homosexuality as about hetrosexuality. I think the problem here is everybody says that the question that follow will be uncomfortable - i say BS. Teach the kid there is nothing wrong with it and that some princes like to kiss other princes. There is NO NEED to make this a sexual education issue - its just a kiss.

If I were a parent in this school system, this is exactly the problem I would have. You are going to jump all over me for this, but please read the rest of my arguement before doing so. I think homosexuality is wrong. I think there IS something wrong with it. (this next part is predicated on the hypothetical that my kids went to this school system) So why were my rights not respected? If I do not want my children being taught about homosexuality in any way shape or form that "normailzes" it, my rights were just stepped on. I personally do not treat homosexuals with disrespect, shun them, mock them, etc., and I would never teach my children to do that. But I will teach them (at the appropriate time) that my wife and I believe it is wrong. If they have seen something in school that defies my position, my position is undermined.

Someone I didn't quote made an outstanding point that the school system has to be considered combative here. They should have made a few phone calls to inform the parents, and allowed the parents to make decisions from there. The parents who objected to this (because they feared it would undermine their parenting) could have removed the children for that period, etc.

[Major Harris]

great responses in this thread, and i'll try and explain my stance that this is something that should involve parent notification......

right or wrong, like it or not, the fact is that there are a LOT of people who wouldn't want this read to their children. i know my parents wouldn't have. are some of those people bigots? sure. but there are also a lot of people who feel that homosexuality is wrong and they don't all hate gay people. believe it or not, it is possible to disagree w/ someones lifestyle but still hold no ill will towards the PERSON. i have several friends that i don't agree with their lifestyle, but they're still my friend, because i see them as more than "the drunk guy" or "the womanizer."

as a teacher, i can tell you that pissing off parents is a big mistake. parents that you would otherwise never see or hear from or know that they care can make a big stink. point to my location all you want larry.