On the ethics of downloading

[jrockster21]

I'm sure this thread has been started before, but I think maybe not with the newer technologies in mind. With the advent of torrent technology, it is possible to download entire discographies, movies, etc. in a fraction of the time it may have taken before.

I am certainly not 100% innocent, but I have made a turnaround when it comes to my opinion on this sort of thing. At the very core of the issue, downloading is stealing. I mean...its the equivalent of going in to Tower and shoplifting the CDs you want. And with the new torrent technology, I have friends who are downloading mp3s by the gigabyte. With this new, faster method, its the equivalent of breaking in to a Tower records and leaving with a car full of CDs and movies.

I know one guy who has close to 100 gigabytes of music that he didn't pay a dime for. 100 gigs! That's gotta be over a 1000 audio CDs. That is more than 10,000 dollars he has stolen, minimum. 10,000 dollars!!! (Just did some rough math...assuming high-quality mp3s, its roughly 100 megs for a CD in mp3 format. 100 gigs is the equivalent of roughly 1000 CDs...good guess!) I have friends who have entire libraries of movies that they have stolen. The same guy has over 200 movies he's burned. That's around 4-5 grand worth of movies he's stolen. Now obviously not everyone is that extreme, but its not a grey area...you're either stealing or you're not.

I'm not one to judge other people, so I'm not going to say you're a bad person for doing this. I will however say that I will not do it anymore because a) its morally wrong (imho) and CDs and DVDs are not that expensive. And as far as DVDs go, I actually prefer to have the case and original artwork...that's just my preference.

So fire away on the ethics of downloading...I'm always interested in hearing the other side of the story; I've had some pretty good discussions about it.

[twa]

Nothing worse than a reformed thief,unless it is a a former smoker

[portisizzle]

Breaking the law is a bad idea.

However, I have lost many DVD's because our family has scratched them to the point that they do not work. My frustration is with the fact that these criminals keep me from doing what should be very, very legal. Making backup copies of these DVD's for my personal use.

Frankly I would love to download a program that would allow me to copy my DVD collection. And if anyone knows if this is legal then please correct me.

[Redskins Diehard]

No argument here. I think your points are valid and agree with just about all of them. There are obviously plenty of people that have absolutely no problem with it though.

[rincewind]

Breaking the law is a bad idea.

However, I have lost many DVD's because our family has scratched them to the point that they do not work. My frustration is with the fact that these criminals keep me from doing what should be very, very legal. Making backup copies of these DVD's for my personal use.

Frankly I would love to download a program that would allow me to copy my DVD collection. And if anyone knows if this is legal then please correct me.

Backups are perfectly legal - as a matter of fact that is why it is legal to sell DVD burning technology.

As for a program? Unless you want to download one illegally (wonder where you could do that... :paranoid: ) you will have to pay for one; unless somebody else knows of a free program - but i've never heard of a free one. I would suggest NERO, it cost $100 - but it has all sorts of editing options.

edit: oh yeah, NERO also allows you to convert audio files such as wav. to MP3! Which is real nice for me as my car's CD player reads MP3 discs.

[RichC82]

Heres my viewpoint:

Look at the amount of money people in entertainment make - across the board.

Now look at the amount of money our civil servants make (military, fire department, police, etc). Its not right.

Sure, I will pay a few bucks to see a good flick at a movie theater, but Im not about making a society of entertainers richer than they already are. They complain about loosing money, but what are they really in danger of - not being able to afford the lamborghini payments and the Redskins dream seats?

I dont equate downloading to stealing, either. Its more like a library. You can go in, get a book, copy the pages you want, put the book back and take your copies home. You dont hear authors whining about their profits dwindling because of libraries and copy machines. Sure, it has been deemed illegal, but so has speeding - tell me you dont do that.

Now if people are reproducing music or movies for a profit, thats a bit shady - but if I want to grab a song online for free, I dont see a problem with it. If I like the artist, I will still shell out 40bucks to see them live.

Put it all into perspective, thats all Im trying to say.

[rictus58]

I dont equate downloading to stealing, either. Its more like a library. You can go in, get a book, copy the pages you want, put the book back and take your copies home. You dont hear authors whining about their profits dwindling because of libraries and copy machines.

This is actually how I get a lot of my music now. I borrow the CD from the library and put it on my ipod.

Now if people are reproducing music or movies for a profit, thats a bit shady - but if I want to grab a song online for free, I dont see a problem with it. If I like the artist, I will still shell out 40bucks to see them live.

And this is the thing. Artists make most of their money in live performances. They only get a single digit percentage of the album sales. The recording industry makes most of the money on CD sales. I think people would be more willing to pay for music online if the prices dropped. I can download a CD from iTunes for $9.99. But what do I really get? information that is stored on a hard drive. The record company doesn't have to package the CD, doesn't have to distribute a physical copy of the cd. I would think they make more $ selling a CD thru itunes than they do at best buy.

[portisizzle]

Backups are perfectly legal - as a matter of fact that is why it is legal to sell DVD burning technology.

As for a program? Unless you want to download one illegally (wonder where you could do that... :paranoid: ) you will have to pay for one; unless somebody else knows of a free program - but i've never heard of a free one. I would suggest NERO, it cost $100 - but it has all sorts of editing options.

edit: oh yeah, NERO also allows you to convert audio files such as wav. to MP3! Which is real nice for me as my car's CD player reads MP3 discs.

The burning technology is legal. But is the decryption process that is required to break down copy protection on the DVD legal?

If you can SHOW me where this is legal then I will download (and buy) a Burning program AND the decryption program needed to break the copy protection. I know the programs are out there. But are they U.S. companies selling the programs? I am curious.

[portisizzle]

Heres my viewpoint:

Look at the amount of money people in entertainment make - across the board.

Now look at the amount of money our civil servants make (military, fire department, police, etc). Its not right.

Sure, I will pay a few bucks to see a good flick at a movie theater, but Im not about making a society of entertainers richer than they already are. They complain about loosing money, but what are they really in danger of - not being able to afford the lamborghini payments and the Redskins dream seats?

I dont equate downloading to stealing, either. Its more like a library. You can go in, get a book, copy the pages you want, put the book back and take your copies home. You dont hear authors whining about their profits dwindling because of libraries and copy machines. Sure, it has been deemed illegal, but so has speeding - tell me you dont do that.

Now if people are reproducing music or movies for a profit, thats a bit shady - but if I want to grab a song online for free, I dont see a problem with it. If I like the artist, I will still shell out 40bucks to see them live.

Put it all into perspective, thats all Im trying to say.

How many dollars are spent on disaster films and band projects that never pan out. What is their success rate? It takes money to flesh out the talent in order to find that one prime act or movie.

You could say the same thing about prescription drugs. Why are they so expensive being that the pills material cost is astronomically low? It is because of research and development costs to bring a product to market. Plus investors want a positive return on their investment. This takes profit.

I wonder what the cost of music would be "if" no one stole the property? People who are playing by the rules definately pay more because on the few who justify stealing. Whould you go to J.C. Penny and steal a raincoat? or Fed Ex field and steal a Portis jersey? J.C. Penny and Dan Snyder make a killing in profits. Why not steal according to your rules?

The only difference between the jersey and the music is the relative ease in which music can be stolen versus going to a store and stealing tangible property of someone elses.

[dfitzo53]

I dont equate downloading to stealing, either. Its more like a library. You can go in, get a book, copy the pages you want, put the book back and take your copies home. You dont hear authors whining about their profits dwindling because of libraries and copy machines.

Authors generally don't have to worry about large numbers of people photocopying the entire book.

Sure, it has been deemed illegal, but so has speeding - tell me you dont do that.

This is one of the weakest arguments downloaders make.

[stevenaa]

Heres my viewpoint:

Look at the amount of money people in entertainment make - across the board.

Now look at the amount of money our civil servants make (military, fire department, police, etc). Its not right.

Sure, I will pay a few bucks to see a good flick at a movie theater, but Im not about making a society of entertainers richer than they already are. They complain about loosing money, but what are they really in danger of - not being able to afford the lamborghini payments and the Redskins dream seats?

I dont equate downloading to stealing, either. Its more like a library. You can go in, get a book, copy the pages you want, put the book back and take your copies home. You dont hear authors whining about their profits dwindling because of libraries and copy machines. Sure, it has been deemed illegal, but so has speeding - tell me you dont do that.

Now if people are reproducing music or movies for a profit, thats a bit shady - but if I want to grab a song online for free, I dont see a problem with it. If I like the artist, I will still shell out 40bucks to see them live.

Put it all into perspective, thats all Im trying to say.

You can rationalize it anyway you choose. It is stealing and it is illegal. That entertainers are already rich is irrelevant. The Ford family is filthy rich, so it must be ok to steal Fords from the showroom floor. Who are you to judge how much money is too much? And what kind of thinking is that anyway. Situational morality at it's finest!!! :doh: Downloading music illegaly is no different than walking into a music store and shopliffing a CD. No different!!!!!

[endzone_dave]

I rip music of shoutcast.com but I rationalize it because I actually buy more CDs because I get a nice sample (not the whole CD) of different CDs from many different artists.

It's a win-win situation: I get a bunch of free music and I hear bands I would never hear on the radio. The music industry gets more money from me.

Kind of the whole point of putting your music out there to listen to on the radio.

[SackMachine]

It is legal to have backup copies of your dvds as long as you can prove you have the original.

People usually download because they feel like the singer is rich enough already or because they only like one song on a cd and are not willing to pay 15$ CA for it. Now Itunes came out with a good idea tho, 99 cents for a song, its not expensive, just dont get that pepsi can every day.

[DeanCollins]

I don't want to pass judgement and won't. I've purchased over 1000 cd's and 200 dvd's, and attended 500 concerts. The only songs I download are live recordings that are unreleased, and music that is out of print. I have listened to allot of stuff that I knew I wouldn't buy, such as rap, r&b to check out a particular artist of music style but don't save them.

as far as the "wealthy artist " argument goes, some are, allot aren't. especially the older ones who may have signed poor contracts.

[portisizzle]

It is legal to have backup copies of your dvds as long as you can prove you have the original.

It is legal to break the copy protection on DVD's?

Then why do they put copy protection on in the first place.

I am not looking for an argument, just show me some proof to the fact that you can legally copy DVD's.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Breaking the law is a bad idea.

However, I have lost many DVD's because our family has scratched them to the point that they do not work. My frustration is with the fact that these criminals keep me from doing what should be very, very legal. Making backup copies of these DVD's for my personal use.

Frankly I would love to download a program that would allow me to copy my DVD collection. And if anyone knows if this is legal then please correct me.

It actually IS legal if you own the original DVD. Just use a program called DVDShrink and follow the directions. It's like a 3-step process. I back-up all my DVDs so in case something is stolen, lost, etc. I have a back-up.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Backups are perfectly legal - as a matter of fact that is why it is legal to sell DVD burning technology.

As for a program? Unless you want to download one illegally (wonder where you could do that... :paranoid: ) you will have to pay for one; unless somebody else knows of a free program - but i've never heard of a free one. I would suggest NERO, it cost $100 - but it has all sorts of editing options.

edit: oh yeah, NERO also allows you to convert audio files such as wav. to MP3! Which is real nice for me as my car's CD player reads MP3 discs.

Nero will not convert and burn DVDs. You can't just pop in a disc and say copy.

[portisizzle]

It actually IS legal if you own the original DVD. Just use a program called DVDShrink and follow the directions. It's like a 3-step process. I back-up all my DVDs so in case something is stolen, lost, etc. I have a back-up.

Does DVDShrink break the copy protection? Did the industry give the decryption code to this company? Or did some kid from Sweden do it?

The most recent program that i am familiar with is called cloneDVD. Here is their pitch.....

--------------------

CloneDVD - Worldwide most popular DVD movie copy software.

CloneDVD is flexible and easy to use. Without special setting, CloneDVD will auto remove all protections (CSS, RC, RCE, UOPs and Sony ARccOS) while copying, let you freely copy all of your DVD movie collections.

CloneDVD makes DVD to DVD copying come true. With a DVD burner, you will get true DVD copies of your DVD collection. The copied disc works well with most popular home DVD player, being completely same as the DVD movie you bought.

Key Features

* Fast and perfect quality. One click copy interface, very easy to use

* Real DVD clone by 1:1. Without warning screen & watermark, copied DVD is same as the DVD movie you bought

* Split DVD-9 into two DVD-5. Shrink DVD-9 to one DVD-5. Copy main movie only to fit into one DVD-5. DVD-9 to DVD-9 Copy.

* Copy CSS-encrypted, Sony ARccOS protected and Region-protected DVD movies

* Without warning screen and watermark, copied DVD same as the original DVD movie

* Supports Dual-Layer (8.5GB) and DVD+RW/-RW burner

____________________________________________

I am asking if it is legal why is the copy protection on the DVD's? And if it is legal can you direct me to a source to prove this?

If it is indeed true, I will start tomorrow.

[dfitzo53]

It actually IS legal if you own the original DVD. Just use a program called DVDShrink and follow the directions. It's like a 3-step process. I back-up all my DVDs so in case something is stolen, lost, etc. I have a back-up.

But if they're stolen or lost you lose the right to own the backup because you can't prove possession of the original.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Does DVDShrink break the copy protection? Did the industry give the decryption code to this company? Or did some kid from Sweden do it?

The most recent program that i am familiar with is called cloneDVD. Here is their pitch.....

--------------------

CloneDVD - Worldwide most popular DVD movie copy software.

CloneDVD is flexible and easy to use. Without special setting, CloneDVD will auto remove all protections (CSS, RC, RCE, UOPs and Sony ARccOS) while copying, let you freely copy all of your DVD movie collections.

CloneDVD makes DVD to DVD copying come true. With a DVD burner, you will get true DVD copies of your DVD collection. The copied disc works well with most popular home DVD player, being completely same as the DVD movie you bought.

Key Features

* Fast and perfect quality. One click copy interface, very easy to use

* Real DVD clone by 1:1. Without warning screen & watermark, copied DVD is same as the DVD movie you bought

* Split DVD-9 into two DVD-5. Shrink DVD-9 to one DVD-5. Copy main movie only to fit into one DVD-5. DVD-9 to DVD-9 Copy.

* Copy CSS-encrypted, Sony ARccOS protected and Region-protected DVD movies

* Without warning screen and watermark, copied DVD same as the original DVD movie

* Supports Dual-Layer (8.5GB) and DVD+RW/-RW burner

____________________________________________

I am asking if it is legal why is the copy protection on the DVD's? And if it is legal can you direct me to a source to prove this?

If it is indeed true, I will start tomorrow.

Some DVDs it does indeed ask to break the protection, but some no:

"In addition to re-authoring DVD's to fit a specific media format, DVD Shrink also allows the user to make an identical backup copy without changes. In either mode, the program has options to facilitate the stripping of CSS copy protection, restrictions on user actions during certain portions of the disc (such as prohibiting skipping over previews or "FBI Warnings", and also allows the copy to be created for any region code (or as region-free)."

I feel that if it's legal for me to make back-up copies of my DVDs that when I do indeed have to circumvent security settings on the DVD to make my backup that I am justified.

[Fred Jones]

Reference backing up your DVD, the law, as I understand it, says that you can make a backup copy of your CD or DVD. The problem is that it is against the law to break the encryption on the DVD to make a backup copy. Well, that is just stupid. Some companies, I think AnyDVD is one, claim to have a method that gets around the law. I believe they read the file before it is in encrypted thus not actually breaking the encryption or something like that.

Personally, I have no problem if you make a backup copy of a movie for your own personal use, even though you are breaking the law. It is the spirit of the law that you are not breaking. If you have kids, they are going to ruin the DVD somewhere down the line.

On a side note.

Concerning movies, the illegal copying and distribution of movies is where the big loss is. I know countries Pakistan have thriving illegal movie copying enterprises. These criminals sell copied DVD’s at half price.

Reference DVDShrink. No, that program does not break the law, but DVD Decryptor or any other program that breaks the encryption does. DVDShrink justs takes the decrypted movie and fits it on a 4.5 GB disc.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

But if they're stolen or lost you lose the right to own the backup because you can't prove possession of the original.

The fact is that the right to back-up the DVD was "sold" to me in essence. Until the ownership of that DVD goes elsewhere (selling it to make a profit and keeping the backup) whether it's lost or stolen (even though the ownership DOES change) I believe that right is still retained. AND don't make it legal to create back-up copies of discs that you own if you don't want people making them. I mean what's the point of a back-up if the original has to be sitting in a safe somewhere (which is probably the better idea and watch the backup).

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Reference backing up your DVD, the law, as I understand it, says that you can make a backup copy of your CD or DVD. The problem is that it is against the law to break the encryption on the DVD to make a backup copy. Well, that is just stupid. Some companies, I think AnyDVD is one, claim to have a method that gets around the law. I believe they read the file before it is in encrypted thus not actually breaking the encryption or something like that.

Personally, I have no problem if you make a backup copy of a movie for your own personal use, even though you are breaking the law. It is the spirit of the law that you are not breaking. If you have kids, they are going to ruin the DVD somewhere down the line.

On a side note.

Concerning movies, the illegal copying and distribution of movies is where the big loss is. I know countries Pakistan have thriving illegal movie copying enterprises. These criminals sell copied DVD’s at half price.

Reference DVDShrink. No, that program does not break the law, but DVD Decryptor or any other program that breaks the encryption does. DVDShrink justs takes the decrypted movie and fits it on a 4.5 GB disc.

Exactly. DVDShrink basically just makes it burnable and readable in a DVD player.

[dfitzo53]

The fact is that the right to back-up the DVD was "sold" to me in essence. Until the ownership of that DVD goes elsewhere (selling it to make a profit and keeping the backup) whether it's lost or stolen (even though the ownership DOES change) I believe that right is still retained. AND don't make it legal to create back-up copies of discs that you own if you don't want people making them. I mean what's the point of a back-up if the original has to be sitting in a safe somewhere (which is probably the better idea and watch the backup).

I was kidding.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I was kidding.

Sorry, brain is fried today. :applause:

I just get into too much crap with people at work when I bring in a backup DVD to watch on my spare computer while I'm working (usually concert DVDs, NO I don't watch movies at work LOL!)