Is Bush the worst President the U.S. has had?

[AbleDanger]

It was also at 3% under Clinton. Unemployment umm kind of jumps around, there is no set presidential rate. Oh, and I am pretty sure that after NAFTA real wages kept up with inflation for the first time in like a really long time. And our unemployment rate was pretty awesome too. So I don't think NAFTA screwed us over.

Unemployment never reached as low as 3% under Clinton. The lowest it went was 4.2% (which is very good). 4.6% isn't too bad either though.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/html/20000112_1.html

[AbleDanger]

I'm a math/statistic kind of guy, with the exception of economic facts. The jobless numbers you just mentioned are moving targets. Jobless rates are accounted for by the number of unemployment applicants (how baseless is that; but I guess there is nothing else one can go off of right now.) That equation slightly changes over the years and thus does not correctly represent how the economy is doing. The best way, IMO, to accurately judge the health of the economy is to look at the income tax dollars being collected on a biannual basis and compare that to previous years, inflation included. Just a suggestion.

NAFTA is an entirely different topic that we can discuss at another time.

GDP is probably the best measure of an economy. Ours is quite good and getting better...

http://www.forecasts.org/gdp.htm

[LApunkrocker72]

By far the word's strongest economy with home ownership at an all-time high and an exceptionally low unemployment rate. The American economy lost a million jobs in the month that followed 9/11, and it was Bush's policies that played a big part in rebounding that economy big time when no one knew for sure if that was going to happen.

A war based on truth, and a protest Democratic leaders based on lies.

In which state and local governments share a great deal of blame.

Keeping us alive right now.

I bet.

I know. It's very fashionable in the watered down punk scene to hate the same authority that gives you the freedom to be a "punkrocker." Your friends from Green Day and The Offspring wear those same t-shirts.

If you want to support our country's current incompetent administration like a blind sheep, then that's your choice. After all, it is a free country.

[AbleDanger]

No, that's the point I've been making. The point you've been (failing to) make is that it's all Congress' fault and the President has no responsibility whatsoever.

Incorrect. I said that Congress bears the primary responsibility because spending is a power given to them in the constitution. I never stated that they beared all the responsibility. Most of what I have read here is all blame being placed on the President.

It's a spin that was invented so that Reagan could try to claim that the defecits he created weren't his fault. (Everything good that happened was because of him, everything bad that happened was because of Congress.) It wasn't true then and it's not true now. (Although it is somewhat amusing watching a GOP President attempting to dump blame for his own policies onto a GOP Congress.)

No, that is a page out of the liberal book. Everything good that happened in the Clinton administration was attributed to Clinton. However, Bush does not receive any credit in his administration for a significant economic rebound after 9/11.

[MisterPinstripe]

Once again - you are confusing the slavery issue with racism. Plus he realized that 'saving' slavery could be a key to saving the Union - that is if slavery was left alone, the South wouldn't break off.

I agree with the 9 owners. The league shares enough with the other teams and players.

What I find funny is that players want to make owner money. If you want to make owner money then form a conglomerate and buy a team.

Players make more then enough money.

I guess I am just not explaining it well enough for you... Did you miss the part where he said that slaves were not equal to whites? That he wanted to get rid of all black people? Ship them all out of the country etc? He said many things like that. How can you not take that as racist. I would really have to find the name of one of the books and get that to you. Allow you to check up on what I said. Maybe the book could get the point and facts across better then I can.

[AbleDanger]

And the leader of the black movement during that time, can not remember his name right now,

Frederick Douglas

Lincoln restored the Union and did free the slaves. Some people place such high standards on a growing American civilization while looking to be so open minded with other cultural faults.

[MisterPinstripe]

If you want to support our country's current incompetent administration like a blind sheep, then that's your choice. After all, it is a free country.

If you want to support the clinton and other faulty adminstrations that is your right. It interests me that people seem to take whatever they are told and accept it as fact. Do some research with out the bias "goggles" that you are looking through. If you read something with the preconcieved concept that it is wrong then you will not listen to it, no matter the facts that are presented. But of course now I must be blind, correct? Or Brainwashed... Something along those lines. Thats what happens when someone can not refute someone elses arguments. They have nothing they can say other then to attack the other person and say they are "blind."

[AbleDanger]

I am by no means a liberal, but I am also not a blind homer (when it comes to Politics, the Skins are a different story) but George Bush is an embarrassment to himself, to his country, and to the Office of the Presidency.

And the statement about being surrounded by crooks and incompetents not being true. Do you know anything about Dick Chaney's background? Have you heard of Haliburton? Do you not think our presidency is in bed with major oil companies? Were you awake to witness the performance of FEMA during Hurricane Katrina, (A Bush appointee who had no business running the Federal Emergency Managent division of the govenrment.) I admired Reagan, I admired George Bush Sr and can defend him, but Jr needs to go, at this point I would take the Governor from Arkansas in place of him.

The Bush administration has acheived some great things during its time. I'm glad Saddam Hussein is out of power. We knew Bush owned stock in oil companies when we voted him into office. The amount of oil we might get out of Iraq is a small percentage of our overall intake and doesn't even come close to the expenses of rebuilding Iraq. The governor of Arkansas and the mayor of New Orleans had a wonderful plan for the aftermath of Katrina...blame everything on the Bush administration.

[MisterPinstripe]

Frederick Douglas

Lincoln restored the Union and did free the slaves. Some people place such high standards on a growing American civilization while looking to be so open minded with other cultural faults.

Not quite sure what you mean, so I am going to respond how I THINK you meant it.

Yes, and I think that it was a great thing that he did. While I think he did it for the wrong reasons, a good thing still came out of it. Personnally, I think people get too open minded to the point where they accept too much. Too much things have become acceptable when they should not be. People are afraid that they might be accused of being close minded, as if its some horrible thing. You know what is really close minded? Donovan McNabb always playing the race card when somethign happens to him he doesnt like. You would think that most everyone out there is a racist. I mean saying T.O. is commiting black on black racism? Dude... Come on, stop using the race card anytime something bad happens to you. It is sad.

[Winslowalrob]

Unemployment never reached as low as 3% under Clinton. The lowest it went was 4.2% (which is very good). 4.6% isn't too bad either though.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/html/20000112_1.html

It went lower than 4.2% for some period of time, maybe not long enough for the website's estimation but it did. And you never answered how Clinton managed to balance the budget.

And Andrew Jackson was not a freaking war hero. He won the battle of New Orleans (which any monkey in a suit could have won)... AFTER the war of 1812 was declared over, and he rode his false war credentials to political power. He was a scumbag, a populist, a racist, and a liar.

[AbleDanger]

Where I'm getting that is from your claim that Bush has no responsibility for his defecits because for him to even attempt to balance the budget would violate the Constitutional seperation of powers.

Bush did propose a budget. Anyone can propose a budget, just like anyone can propose a bill. The question is will Congress, consider it and enact it. The President can not enact it because its not his constitutional right. If you read my statements clearly, you would have understood better.

[AbleDanger]

Thats what happens when someone can not refute someone elses arguments. They have nothing they can say other then to attack the other person and say they are "blind."

It was very typical wasn't it? :laugh:

[LApunkrocker72]

If you want to support the clinton and other faulty adminstrations that is your right. It interests me that people seem to take whatever they are told and accept it as fact. Do some research with out the bias "goggles" that you are looking through. If you read something with the preconcieved concept that it is wrong then you will not listen to it, no matter the facts that are presented. But of course now I must be blind, correct? Or Brainwashed... Something along those lines. Thats what happens when someone can not refute someone elses arguments. They have nothing they can say other then to attack the other person and say they are "blind."

I do my share of researching, and based on my research, I still think Bush (aka Darth Vader) is the worst president our country has ever had.

[AbleDanger]

It went lower than 4.2% for some period of time, maybe not long enough for the website's estimation but it did.

That's incorrect. The unemployment rate hit 4.2% near the end of Clinton's administration and that is the lowest it had been since 1969. A significant milestone, but that was his low point.

And you never answered how Clinton managed to balance the budget.

He didn't.

And Andrew Jackson was not a freaking war hero. He won the battle of New Orleans (which any monkey in a suit could have won)... AFTER the war of 1812 was declared over, and he rode his false war credentials to political power. He was a scumbag, a populist, a racist, and a liar.

He was a war hero. He fought in the Mexican American war as well and received awards for valor. And without Andrew Jackson, we probably would not have Florida right now.

[AbleDanger]

Not quite sure what you mean, so I am going to respond how I THINK you meant it.

Yes, and I think that it was a great thing that he did. While I think he did it for the wrong reasons, a good thing still came out of it. Personnally, I think people get too open minded to the point where they accept too much. Too much things have become acceptable when they should not be. People are afraid that they might be accused of being close minded, as if its some horrible thing. You know what is really close minded? Donovan McNabb always playing the race card when somethign happens to him he doesnt like. You would think that most everyone out there is a racist. I mean saying T.O. is commiting black on black racism? Dude... Come on, stop using the race card anytime something bad happens to you. It is sad.

Good point. It is sad. It's moral cowardice.

[Winslowalrob]

That's incorrect. The unemployment rate hit 4.2% near the end of Clinton's administration and that is the lowest it had been since 1969. A significant milestone, but that was his low point.

He didn't.

He was a war hero. He fought in the Mexican American war as well and received awards for valor. And without Andrew Jackson, we probably would not have Florida right now.

It was lower, if only briefly, I will look it up tommorow for you.

Christ he totally balanced it. He spearheaded the drive for legislation, faced a Republican onslaught, and got his VP to break the tie.

FLORIDA? FLORIDA IS THE FEATHER IN HIS HAT? If we are going to play the "what if" game, I should let you know that we would have gotten Florida no matter what. We could have had a rock as president.

[chomerics]

That's incorrect. The unemployment rate hit 4.2% near the end of Clinton's administration and that is the lowest it had been since 1969. A significant milestone, but that was his low point.

He didn't.

He was a war hero. He fought in the Mexican American war as well and received awards for valor. And without Andrew Jackson, we probably would not have Florida right now.

:koolaid::koolaid::koolaid::koolaid:

Almost every fact you pose is wrong, and you are soooo misguided in your thinking it is almost laughable. Hell, in the link you gave the unemployment for 1999 AVERAGED 4.2%, which means it hit below 4.2% at some point, did you not read it? Job creation under Bush has been abysimal. He has created 2.6milllion jobs, yet what has the workforce done since he started, how many new people entered the workforce? Has his job creation been enough to keep up with the increase in workforce? What jobs were they? Clinton created on AVERAGE 250+K jobs per month during his 8 years, even using your numbers of 2.6million, you have a job creation of less then 50K/month or 1/5th of Clinton's job creation (he's been in office for over 60months). This is also at a time where government spending increased the fastest ever, and he gave the largest tax cut ever. He took a $200 Billion surplus and turned it into a $500Billion deficit. The stock market went up over 300% during Clinton's tenure, and it has actually DECREASED in 5 years of Bush's tenure. . . I could go on and on and on, but to even remotely think that this economy is even CLOSE to the economy in the 90's is a complete joke, and it shows your blind partisanship on the issue.

[Gamebreaker]

Or is invested in stocks or bonds, used as start up capital for a new business or get this.....actually spent on goods and services in this country and thus put back into the economy.

The majority of rich people don't take risk with their money. They save it, that is why they became rich in the first place.

[Gamebreaker]

I know he wasn't for total equality - but, back then that didn't necessarily make you a racist.

Are you serious? Who cares what the social climate on what made you a racist or not was back then, it shouldn't be left to public opinion. You either are or you aren't, and if Lincoln didn't feel blacks were equal with whites than Abraham Lincoln was a racist. Period.

I'm not backing this other guy's claims, but no way should anyone get a free pass in anyone's eyes simply because of the general opinion was in that time period. If all white people felt the same way in that time period, then they were ALL a bunch of racist.

[rincewind]

Are you serious? Who cares what the social climate on what made you a racist or not was back then, it shouldn't be left to public opinion. You either are or you aren't, and if Lincoln didn't feel blacks were equal with whites than Abraham Lincoln was a racist. Period.

I'm not backing this other guy's claims, but no way should anyone get a free pass in anyone's eyes simply because of the general opinion was in that time period. If all white people felt the same way in that time period, then they were ALL a bunch of racist.

I knew this would be hard to get across over the net. I have two points:

1. Yes, you do have to allow for social climate. In my mind it is akin to saying that someone in today's world that is against illegal immigrants is racist. Though they may be ignorant, insensitive, and somewhat of an ******* - they are not neccesarily racist.

2. I have a very hard time believing Lincoln was racist. Seems to me if he was a racist he would not have had black friends and would not have under any circumstances attempted to end slavery.

Also, if you are saying he is not a great president because of his views on slavery, then you have to say the 15 previous presidents do not belong in the conversation of the greatest - as they all had at least some ties to that horrible, archaic institution.

[Winslowalrob]

He was a war hero. He fought in the Mexican American war as well and received awards for valor. And without Andrew Jackson, we probably would not have Florida right now.

Oh, I TOTALLY forgot it when you put it up:

Andrew Jackson 1767 - 1845

Mexican American War: 1846 and 1848

Knowing Ol Hickory, it would not surprise me that he convinced historians that he rose from the dead and fought in the Mexican American War. He was a racist, populist, liar after all .

Oh, and he did not get an award for valor either: http://cpol.army.mil/library/permiss/5496.html

1. Purpose: The Secretary of the Army Award for Valor is established to acknowledge civilian employees and private citizens who perform an act of heroism or sacrifice, with voluntary risk of personal safety in the face of danger either on or off the job.

How would a military man get a civilian award in combat duty? He may have gotten medals, but nothing that translates now, considering that none of the Pyramid of Honor medals (All the stuff WE talk about) were established earlier than 1918, http://www.pbs.org/weta/americanvalor/history/pyramid.html

though the purple heart did have a predecessor in Washington's "Badge of Military Merit." Unless he broke his ribs trying to suck his own @#$%, show me his awards .

[england]

i thought johnson for prelonging vietnam and then letting someone else get the troops out

[Cdowwe]

Oh, I TOTALLY forgot it when you put it up:

Andrew Jackson 1767 - 1845

Mexican American War: 1846 and 1848

Knowing Ol Hickory, it would not surprise me that he convinced historians that he rose from the dead and fought in the Mexican American War. He was a racist, populist, liar after all .

Oh, and he did not get an award for valor either: http://cpol.army.mil/library/permiss/5496.html

1. Purpose: The Secretary of the Army Award for Valor is established to acknowledge civilian employees and private citizens who perform an act of heroism or sacrifice, with voluntary risk of personal safety in the face of danger either on or off the job.

How would a military man get a civilian award in combat duty? He may have gotten medals, but nothing that translates now, considering that none of the Pyramid of Honor medals (All the stuff WE talk about) were established earlier than 1918, http://www.pbs.org/weta/americanvalor/history/pyramid.html

though the purple heart did have a predecessor in Washington's "Badge of Military Merit." Unless he broke his ribs trying to suck his own @#$%, show me his awards .

He meant the War of 1812, where he was a hero at New Orleans. He fought in the Revolution as well, captured at the Battle of Hanging Rock when he was 13.

[Winslowalrob]

He meant the War of 1812, where he was a hero at New Orleans. He fought in the Revolution as well, captured at the Battle of Hanging Rock when he was 13.

He did not mean the War of 1812, I told him about the Battle of New Orleans, we went over that and he said "He was a war hero. He fought in the Mexican American war as well and received awards for valor. And without Andrew Jackson, we probably would not have Florida right now." That was after I referenced New Orleans. He fought in the revo, but he was captured along with his brother, so I would not pencil him down as a war hero quite yet. He did not break out of jail and rescue his brother (who died in prison). He did not swim across the Atlantic with a knife in his mouth and stab King George. He got captured at 13. While his heroism should be commended in that regard, he did not do jack during the war.

[Gamebreaker]

I knew this would be hard to get across over the net. I have two points:

1. Yes, you do have to allow for social climate. In my mind it is akin to saying that someone in today's world that is against illegal immigrants is racist. Though they may be ignorant, insensitive, and somewhat of an ******* - they are not neccesarily racist.

2. I have a very hard time believing Lincoln was racist. Seems to me if he was a racist he would not have had black friends and would not have under any circumstances attempted to end slavery.

Also, if you are saying he is not a great president because of his views on slavery, then you have to say the 15 previous presidents do not belong in the conversation of the greatest - as they all had at least some ties to that horrible, archaic institution.

So, because a man was raised that he was genetically superior to another man due to skin tone, he isn't a racist because he didn't know any better? Sorry, I disagree 100%.

Furthermore, you used a bad analogy. People don't like illegal immigrants NOT because they feel they are superior to them, they don't like them because their ILLEGAL. Their very presence in our country is preventing a REAL american citizen from a job and/or home, and draining our economy. They don't compare at all.

I'm not arguing whether Lincoln was racist or not. I haven't done any research on the matter, and apparently neither have you. If you really want to dispute that other poster's claims, which he says he researched, you should do the same. The only reason I jumped into the discussion because I do not feel the social climate of someone's environment should allow them to get off the hook for being a racist. Their were white men and women who knew it was wrong and did what they could to help the slaves, like the sympathizers to the underground railroad. If they knew better than to go along with the majority of the country, then so could anyone who lived back then. No one gets a free pass, it doesn't matter how prominent and successful they were.