Is Bush the worst President the U.S. has had?

[rincewind]

So, because a man was raised that he was genetically superior to another man due to skin tone, he isn't a racist because he didn't know any better? Sorry, I disagree 100%.

Furthermore, you used a bad analogy. People don't like illegal immigrants NOT because they feel they are superior to them, they don't like them because their ILLEGAL. Their very presence in our country is preventing a REAL american citizen from a job and/or home, and draining our economy. They don't compare at all.

BS. If Americans were willing to work for those wages there would be no need for illegal immigrants

I'm not arguing whether Lincoln was racist or not. I haven't done any research on the matter, and apparently neither have you. If you really want to dispute that other poster's claims, which he says he researched, you should do the same. The only reason I jumped into the discussion because I do not feel the social climate of someone's environment should allow them to get off the hook for being a racist. Their were white men and women who knew it was wrong and did what they could to help the slaves, like the sympathizers to the underground railroad. If they knew better than to go along with the majority of the country, then so could anyone who lived back then. No one gets a free pass, it doesn't matter how prominent and successful they were.

Um... he made a claim, one that is not widely accept and therefore it is up to him to prove it, not for me to disprove it. Also, do you consider EVERY president up to Lincoln a racist since they didn't end slavery? By the way, from what has been posted i still see no evidence that says Lincoln felt he was superior to all black people.

[Larry]

BS. If Americans were willing to work for those wages there would be no need for illegal immigrants

Or, an alternate way of phrasing that would be, "if employers were willing to pay a wage determined by the open market . . . "

[rincewind]

Or, an alternate way of phrasing that would be, "if employers were willing to pay a wage determined by the open market . . . "

Even better. Thanks.

[AbleDanger]

It was lower, if only briefly, I will look it up tommorow for you.

Okay...

Christ he totally balanced it. He spearheaded the drive for legislation, faced a Republican onslaught, and got his VP to break the tie.

He proposed a budget that Congress could elect to approve.

FLORIDA? FLORIDA IS THE FEATHER IN HIS HAT? If we are going to play the "what if" game, I should let you know that we would have gotten Florida no matter what. We could have had a rock as president.

He didn't obtain Florida as President. He conquered it as a General.

[AbleDanger]

:koolaid::koolaid::koolaid::koolaid:

Almost every fact you pose is wrong,

1. Facts can not be wrong.

2. Almost every thing I have stated is correct. You have not shown otherwise.

and you are soooo misguided in your thinking it is almost laughable. Hell, in the link you gave the unemployment for 1999 AVERAGED 4.2%, which means it hit below 4.2% at some point, did you not read it?

The average is not give or take 1%. Do you know what 1% of America's population represents?

Job creation under Bush has been abysimal. He has created 2.6milllion jobs, yet what has the workforce done since he started, how many new people entered the workforce? Has his job creation been enough to keep up with the increase in workforce? What jobs were they? Clinton created on AVERAGE 250+K jobs per month during his 8 years, even using your numbers of 2.6million, you have a job creation of less then 50K/month or 1/5th of Clinton's job creation (he's been in office for over 60months). This is also at a time where government spending increased the fastest ever, and he gave the largest tax cut ever.

The result of the Bush administration's planning has been a strong and growing GDP (even after a huge blow to our economy on 9/11).

He took a $200 Billion surplus and turned it into a $500Billion deficit.

With a little help from our friends in Congress and a war on terror to finance.

The stock market went up over 300% during Clinton's tenure, and it has actually DECREASED in 5 years of Bush's tenure. . . I could go on and on and on, but to even remotely think that this economy is even CLOSE to the economy in the 90's is a complete joke, and it shows your blind partisanship on the issue.

I never made a comparison between the two economies. I still have not been able to find the average GDP of the Clinton era to weigh it against the average GDP of the Bush era.

[AbleDanger]

The majority of rich people don't take risk with their money. They save it, that is why they became rich in the first place.

Even if they save their money, its being spent somewhere. The bank doesn't sit on it. The bank invests it. That's how the bank makes money off of your money.

You can't stop the natural flow of currency. Money is ether spent or invested. Either one helps the economy, and allowing people (rich and otherwise) to keep more of their money provides more stimulus.

[AbleDanger]

Are you serious? Who cares what the social climate on what made you a racist or not was back then, it shouldn't be left to public opinion. You either are or you aren't, and if Lincoln didn't feel blacks were equal with whites than Abraham Lincoln was a racist. Period.

I'm not backing this other guy's claims, but no way should anyone get a free pass in anyone's eyes simply because of the general opinion was in that time period. If all white people felt the same way in that time period, then they were ALL a bunch of racist.

Relativity is relevent. I admit it was stupid, but you're holding them to too high of a standard. Racism exists all over this world because division based on ethnicity is a seemingly natural human tendancy, but it is accented in modern American society for the purpose of defeating it. I'm not justifying it, but it was a more primitive European culture.

[AbleDanger]

He meant the War of 1812, where he was a hero at New Orleans. He fought in the Revolution as well, captured at the Battle of Hanging Rock when he was 13.

I was up very late last night. :doh: I meant war fought against the American Indians.

[Winslowalrob]

Okay...

He proposed a budget that Congress could elect to approve.

He didn't obtain Florida as President. He conquered it as a General.

Ok, so no president should get economic credit then.

So basically you are saying that ONLY Jackson could have conquered it, because if it was not for him we would not have gotten it?

[AbleDanger]

Ok, so no president should get economic credit then.

No, the President deserves credit for his contributions. As I've said repeatedly (in other threads as well), his ability to veto gives him leverage. They are forced to negotiate. But, spending money is a legislative power and Congress is on the other end of the bargaining table. Congress' spending is often done to in some way benefit lobbyists, interest groups, or constituents in their states. You could argue that Bush is not strong-arming some of the big spenders in Congress like he probably should.

So basically you are saying that ONLY Jackson could have conquered it, because if it was not for him we would not have gotten it?

Probably not as easily and with so little cost. Jackson was far more ambitious than probably any other American General in history. Spain called him the American Napolean. In fact, if he hadn't become sick on that campaign, he said that he would have conquered Cuba too.

[Cdowwe]

I was up very late last night. :doh: I meant war fought against the American Indians.

War against the Indians, War of 1812, and the Revolution. Id say hes worthy of praise.

[AbleDanger]

War against the Indians, War of 1812, and the Revolution. Id say hes worthy of praise.

Something else that's interesting about Andrew Jackson is that he took a bullet in the chest during a duel with Charles Dickenson. Jackson didn't budge. Dickenson thought he had missed until he started to see blood on Jackson's shirt. Jackson fired back and killed Dickenson. Jackson spent the remaining 40 years of his life with a bullet in his chest (that includes during the war of 1812, the occupation of Florida, and his presidency).

[Cdowwe]

Something else that's interesting about Andrew Jackson is that he took a bullet in the chest during a duel with Charles Dickenson. Jackson didn't budge. Dickenson thought he had missed until he started to see blood on Jackson's shirt. Jackson fired back and killed Dickenson. Jackson spent the remaining 40 years of his life with a bullet in his chest (that includes during the war of 1812, the occupation of Florida, and his presidency).

What a badass!

[AbleDanger]

What a badass!

I know! :notworthy

[Larry]

1. Facts can not be wrong.

Yours can.

The result of the Bush administration's planning has been a strong and growing GDP (even after a huge blow to our economy on 9/11).

Or, another way of phrasing that is: If you ignore the parts where it went down, the economy's growing well. (Come to think of it, I own some stock like that.)

(There's even a chance that he'll leave the economy (on paper) better than he started with. (If you ignore that pesky defecit thing.))

[AbleDanger]

Yours can.

Yes, for those who will see the world only how it will best benefit their political agenda.

Or, another way of phrasing that is: If you ignore the parts where it went down, the economy's growing well. (Come to think of it, I own some stock like that.)

(There's even a chance that he'll leave the economy (on paper) better than he started with. (If you ignore that pesky defecit thing.))

Or another way of phrasing it: If you ignore the damage of 9/11 and the cost of a necessary war on terror and beat the drumb that the economy is just terrible and all Bush's fault, hopefully stupid people will believe you and vote Democrat next election.

[Duncan]

You put Clinton at the bottom?? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Clinton is one of the better presidents we've had, like it or not.

Please name three memorable accomplishments of the Clinton administration.

I’d say the getting a hummer from an intern while smoking a fine cigar was his finest hour.

[Duncan]

He wasn't in the Senate, he did not vote for anything, and yet HE was the driving catalyst. Quick, explain to me how he got the budget passed without a single Republican vote? If you know so much about government that is.

So there was one budget passed during the 8 years of the Clinton Presidency? Wow, you learn something every day.

[chomerics]

1. Facts can not be wrong.

2. Almost every thing I have stated is correct. You have not shown otherwise.

Dude, did you even read this thread? Winslow ripped you a new one for saying that Jackson was a hero in a war that happened after he died!!! Then you have the unmittigated gaul to actually say that everything you have stated is correct??? Are you serious??? McFly is anyone in there? Hello. . . Is anyone home??? I mean come on now, how can you say that almost everything you state is correct, and pull out something like that? Man, what's next, SSI was started during the civil war? (Don't know if it was you that said it, but someone did) I seem to remember FDR being a great olympic sprinter myself, didn't he beat out Jessie Owens in Munic in 36? Seriously

The average is not give or take 1%. Do you know what 1% of America's population represents?

What are you talking about here? I stated the AVERAGE unemployment rate was 4.2%. You do know what an average is right? That means that for 6 months it had to be below 4.2% right? He is a graph from the last 10 years, and look, it fell below 4% when Clinton was president, something you were arguing against.

Still want to say that everything you stated is correct???

The result of the Bush administration's planning has been a strong and growing GDP (even after a huge blow to our economy on 9/11).

With a little help from our friends in Congress and a war on terror to finance.

Do you understand Economics? Well, let me tell you something about it, if you spend money, the economy increases. You do understand that we are running a deficit right? Something that can not be sustained right? Under Bush, Intrest rates have been at an all time low, spending has increased faster then any other president in history, and he has given the largest tax cut in history. The economy should be skyrocketing through the roof, yet it has grown slower then during Clinton's years. That was a time when taxes increased, spending declined, and inrest rates were about 4 points higher then they are now and other factors.

I never made a comparison between the two economies. I still have not been able to find the average GDP of the Clinton era to weigh it against the average GDP of the Bush era.

Go to bls.gov you can find all the information there. I'm not going to do your homework for you, because I already know the numbers from the 90's and I know what they are now, it isn't even remotely on the same plane. . . But then again, almost everything you state is correct right? :doh:

[Duncan]

It was also at 3% under Clinton.

No it wasn't.

[chomerics]

Please name three memorable accomplishments of the Clinton administration.

I’d say the getting a hummer from an intern while smoking a fine cigar was his finest hour.

Just Three

Crime decrease

GDP increase

Stock Market up 300%

Unemployment lowest ever

Fewest %of people on Welfare

College for every American that wanted to go

Balanced Budget

$200 Billion Surplus

Do you want me to go on, or should I stop now and catch my breath?

[chomerics]

No it wasn't.

IT was at 3.8% I posted the graph above.

[rincewind]

Just Three

Crime decrease

GDP increase

Stock Market up 300%

Unemployment lowest ever

Fewest %of people on Welfare

College for every American that wanted to go

Balanced Budget

$200 Billion Surplus

Do you want me to go on, or should I stop now and catch my breath?

C'mon Chom - we all know those things only happened because he had a Republican congress.

[AbleDanger]

Dude, did you even read this thread? Winslow ripped you a new one for saying that Jackson was a hero in a war that happened after he died!!!

That was one statement, which I later recanted. And it has no bearing on the discussion between you and I.

Then you have the unmittigated gaul to actually say that everything you have stated is correct???

I didn't say that.

Are you serious??? McFly is anyone in there? Hello. . . Is anyone home??? I mean come on now, how can you say that almost everything you state is correct, and pull out something like that? Man, what's next, SSI was started during the civil war? (Don't know if it was you that said it, but someone did) I seem to remember FDR being a great olympic sprinter myself, didn't he beat out Jessie Owens in Munic in 36? Seriously

You are very child-like. It's comical. :laugh:

hat are you talking about here? I stated the AVERAGE unemployment rate was 4.2%. You do know what an average is right? That means that for 6 months it had to be below 4.2% right? He is a graph from the last 10 years, and look, it fell below 4% when Clinton was president, something you were arguing against.

The graph does indicate that it just barely fell below 4%, but it does not show that it came anywhere near 3%.

Still want to say that everything you stated is correct???

I never made such an affirmation. :laugh:

Do you understand Economics? Well, let me tell you something about it, if you spend money, the economy increases. You do understand that we are running a deficit right? Something that can not be sustained right? Under Bush, Intrest rates have been at an all time low, spending has increased faster then any other president in history, and he has given the largest tax cut in history. The economy should be skyrocketing through the roof, yet it has grown slower then during Clinton's years. That was a time when taxes increased, spending declined, and inrest rates were about 4 points higher then they are now and other factors.

A time that did not require a war on terror and did not have the most devestating attack on American soil in history. And the economy started to slow down at the end of Clinton's administration. Maybe those higher taxes eventually caught up to us.

Go to bls.gov you can find all the information there. I'm not going to do your homework for you, because I already know the numbers from the 90's and I know what they are now, it isn't even remotely on the same plane. . . But then again, almost everything you state is correct right? :doh:

Go read the constitution. I still don't think you grasped the concept of legislative and executive powers in relation to goverment spending.

[AbleDanger]

C'mon Chom - we all know those things only happened because he had a Republican congress.

That was definitely a factor seeing as how the constitution gives Congress the power to spend federal funds.