Was Moon THAT deserving of 1st ballot? Monk stuff too

[jabronijames]

CFL stats don't count. It is the NFL Hall of Fame.

If CFL stats counted then guys like Dieter Brock who played in the NFL and put up big numbers in Canada would be candidates............

You, sir, are wrong. It is the PRO FOOTBALL hall of fame...Not the NFL hall of fame. Moon is surely deserving to be in there just as much as Marino. Monk deservs to be there even more, in my opinion, but I'm not the one who votes these guys in.

[jschlesi]

Warren Moon was the first GREAT African American qb. Yes he is deserving of first ballot. Also, if he hadnt spend is first few years in Canada, he would prob be second all time in yards. Maybe first. 8 straight pro bowls, before the pro bowl became a joke.

He was good at best. Too many INTS and lackluster big games for my vote.

Too many good Qbs in the HOF and too few Great O-Lineman.

[81tothehall]

it is not just a matter of super bowls, how many playoff games did the guy win? how many division titles, if i'm not mistaken the oilers had a habit of being the wild card team. did moon even win a big game in college? i don't know squat about the cfl, but i would say that you probably would find tougher defenses in the texas div 5 state high school playoffs. carson deserves to be there and so does aikman. madden should go as well. i don't know that much about the lineman from dallas because i wasn't born when he played but i also don't know anything about any of the veteran committee's selections. i do know that i watched a lot of warren moon games and i don't remember him being the guy who had a penchant for bringing teams back if they were behind. i do remember him being a good timing qb who had a good line and had good recievers in earnest givens and haywood jeffries. they had decent rb's and their defenses always blitzed well. i don't see moon being any better than ken obrien from the jets. the run and shoot really padded his stats. i don't have any problem with him getting in about 15 years from now in a down year for selections but there is no way that he should get in ahead of monk, grimm, or even irvin. he did not change the game in any way. i'm not just bashing him for not winning a super bowl, i'm saying he couldn't put a team on his back and win a pee wee league title. even bernie kosar could pull off a big win every once in a while.

[painfulyetloyal]

My main dissent from your arguement is that the Pro Football Hall of Fame is for NFL players / coaches and their achievements while with the NFL in some capacity. As great as Moon's CFL performance is, it can't be considered when arguing to induct him into Canton.

After removing the CFL data from the equation, Moon is still a HoF'er. I don't believe that he should be first ballot, but he definately belongs there.

You are entitled to your opinion but the fact is is that his CFL stats will be considered and he will more than likely be a first ballod HOF"er.

[painfulyetloyal]

No, YOU are wrong. There is not any provision for any Pro league outside the NFL, any of its affiliates or incorporates, in any past or present form, to have members inducted. It is an entirely NFL-related venture, and can be further proven by the method used to determine induction. There is not one Canadian Football League host city writer representing their interests.

"Election of new members to the Pro Football Hall of Fame is solely the responsibility of the 39-member Board of Selectors, a committee largely made up of sports writers. Each NFL city has one representative with two from New York City, because of its two teams. There also is a representative of the Pro Football Writers Association, and six are at-large representatives."

Pro Football Hall of Fame Facts and History:

http://www.profootballhof.com/hall/release.jsp?release_id=932

It doesnt disclude anyone playing in the CFL. Where does it say that?

[painfulyetloyal]

wow, it sounds like you just read all of my thread...was that meant for comedy or just to show off your superior knowledge?

I guess we should just bypass the 5 year rule and just let Flutie in because he's been out of the CFL for about 5 years. He's pretty much considered the Montana of the CFL, which means the CFL is a joke. The field is longer, wider and all they do is pass. So what you're saying is that in the 4-5 years he played, Moon AVERAGED about 5,000 to 6,000 yards a season?! Yeah the CFL means a lot. If the HOF includes other football leagues who consider themselves pros then I'll start my own league, pill up some weekend game stats, retire and send them off to the writers. They are surely going to let me in, right?

ALL I'm saying, if you really did just respond without reading my post, is that Moon and Testaverde have similiar stats over about the same amount of years. Why is he a first ballot and Vinnie will NEVER be mentioned.

When people bring into the fact that he is the first African American QB to be inducted it tarnishes HIS career. I think he should get in but first ballot? Not with Monk who retired with the most catches ever at his position on the sideline (and Irvin making the final 10 before him!). He's never going to be a HOF quarterback. He'll always be the first African American QB. Sports in general always boast that they are always ahead of social status. They talk of the sports colorblindness. Now why would being the first African American QB be a leading criteria for making it into the Hall? I've seen about 5-6 posts saying that he is the best African American QB and deserves to get in. What exactly does that mean?

Under that rationale of thinking, whichever African American QB who retired before Moon was techincally "the best African American QB" and should have gotten in.

Moon piled up a lot of numbers and has NOTHING to show for them. Not even a superbowl appearance. Moon played in the run and shoot which did not include running, only shooting. Donovan Mcnabb (not comparing races only systems) plays in the West Coast offense. He passed for over 300 yards in the superbowl and his team was out of it after the 2nd quarter! He was on pace for 4,000 yards this past season, while hurt, and we all know how that turned out.

I'm just bringing into question the way in which players gain these valuable statistics. Are these stats significant to their teams success or not? Some are.... some aren't. That's why stats aren't all the writers go by.

I still think Monk stiffed King on an interview and he's held a grudge. Objective my *****

It saddens me that you are not willing to discuss this situation more.

I dont care if they are white, black, purple, yellow or green. Anyone with those numbers gets in. Im not saying we should start inducting CFL stars. What I AM saying is if his first 5-6 years were spent in the NFL, there is a good chance he'd be the all time pass leader. Dont try to interpret what Im saying. If you want to know, if you dont understand my words, just ask and I'll tell you. Your arguement that the CFL is pass friendly and the fields are bigger, BLA, BLA, BLA, is irrelevent considering Moon continued to shine in the NFL as well, AFTER he torched the CFL. You'd have a point if he did well in Canada then came to the NFL and stunk it up. :doh:

[Dance04]

if u think that Moon was a compiler and should not get in first ballot cuz he never won the big one, then u need to think the same of Dan Marino, who also played 17 years in the league and never won a SB.

Fact is, both deserve to be in, probably both on first ballot. To discount someone because they compiled alot of stats because they played for so long is stupid. Isn't longevity a aspect that all athletes desire. Don't we as fans want the players to play for a long time?

I guess emmitt smith should not get in the HOF either, his stats werent good all he did was play for many years :doh:

I never saw Art Monk play, but u guys honestly think he can be snubbed forever? doubt it.

[JPM285181]

warren moon was a great q.b. however are his stats any better than danny whites? art monk was a great receiver, and should be in the hof. monk did not win a superbowl and may not make it because of that. which is total b.s. monk will always be behind michael irvin who won 3 super bowls but has a hard time getting in his self. the hof voting is a total biased and opinionated poll where the actual voters have secret ballots. also, is john riggins in the hof? by the numbers he was actually only average. but for his ability and for what he meant to the skins as a team he should definitely be in there. how can they keep you out of the hof and say you didnt win the s.b. and other teams they keep you out and say you won because of your teammates. 49ers have played in 5 superbowls and have 25 in hof cowboys 8 s.b. and 7 in hof. explain the logic. and art monk not in hof because he didnt win a superbowl. what a laugh. the hof should be picketed and turned down by the inductees. and not attended by the fans until they have open and un-biased voting.

Actually Monk has 3 superbowl rings (and a fourth superbowl loss) the same as Irvin with one more appearance. You being a cowboyforlife should remember all the games Monk broke your heart.

[#98QBKiller]

I guess you gotta beat your wife to be considered for the Hall

:laugh:

Unfortunately that's the first thing that comes to mind when people mention Warren Moon.

[armstrong001]

For you folks who said that Moon "presided" over the biggest collapse in NFL playoff history, or that he "chokes" in playoff games, take a look at his stats in that 1992 AFC wild card game:

36 of 50 (72% completion percentage is pretty good in my book) for 371 yards, 4 touchdowns against 2 interceptions.

Moon did not lose that game. The Houston defence did. If you put up 38 points as a qb, you are doing your job.

Lifetime playoff stats:

259/403 (64%)

2834 yards (283/game)

17 td's

14 int's

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MoonWa00.htm

Those are not "choker" stats in the playoffs. He was a great qb on mediocre teams with stupid offensive systems. I've got no problem seeing him in the hall of fame.

[Bang]

When discussing the ring, forget the comparison to Marino.

for one, Marino got to the Big One once, which while not much is more than Moon could ever do.

Ask yourself, of modern era QBs,(post-merger) which ones without rings have gotten in?

Marino and Tarkenton come to mind, and both retired with every passing record known to man. Jim Kelly did, but he got there 4 times in a row.

Anyone else? There's Fouts, he still holds significant passing records.

But, what makes the Marino / Moon comparison utterly absurd is this ..

for the record, here are the records Marino STILL holds.

Attempts

Most seasons leadin league

Most attempts, career

Completions

Most seasons leading league

Most consecutive seasons leading league

Most completions, career

Yards

Most yards passing , career

Most seasons 3000 or more yds passing

Most yards gained, season

Most games 400 or more yards passing, career

Most games 400 or more yards passing season

Most games 300 or more yards passing, career

Touchdowns

Most touchdown passes, career

Most games, 4 or more TD passes, career

Most games, 4 or more TD passes, season

-----------------------------------------------------

Records held by Warren Moon

Most times sacked, game

Most fumbles, career

Most fumbles recovered, career (Own and Opponents)

Most fumbles, recovered, career (Own)

So while you may want to argue his numbers, leave the comparison's to Marino at the door. To compare the two in terms of accomplishments is to compare an astronaut to a truck driver.

Monk before Moon.

~Bang

PS, to another thought I saw posted in, I can certainly decide for myself when it's time for me to stop noticing someone's color, no matter what color I am. I can decide to look beyond it on my own. If someone else chooses to make it an issue, that's fine for them but it doesn't have to fit my criteria.

Warren Moon is a man. He was a quarterback. What color he is isn't supposed to matter. In terms of pioneers, I think that James Harris or even Joe Gilliam stood out first, even Doug Williams preceded Moon in terms of pioneering, he was a top draft choice quarterback who was black who went to play in central Florida.

He lived thru a lot of hell from ignorant fools, and always, and i mean ALWAYS excelled on the field and as a man of class.

Granted, Moon's numbers far eclipse any of theirs, but they broke barriers, to be sure.

My point is, these barriers have been broken, it's time we stop resurrecting them, and if we want to recognize the contributions by these men in terms of their historical significance,, that's fine, I think that's great,, but Monk first.

And lest anyone misunderstand, i am in no way saying Moon doesn't deserve to go... just Art Monk first is what I believe.

~Bang

[powerANDgut]

if u think that Moon was a compiler and should not get in first ballot cuz he never won the big one, then u need to think the same of Dan Marino, who also played 17 years in the league and never won a SB.

Fact is, both deserve to be in, probably both on first ballot. To discount someone because they compiled alot of stats because they played for so long is stupid. Isn't longevity a aspect that all athletes desire. Don't we as fans want the players to play for a long time?

That is what my post was about. Monk gets discredited for this and Moon is praised for his longevity. That is why I see a double standard.

I guess emmitt smith should not get in the HOF either, his stats werent good all he did was play for many years :doh:

Are you serious?? Granted he did run behind a mammoth Oline and didn't get touched until running 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. BUT we all would agree that Smith hung around about 3-4 years too long. That still would have put him in the top 3 runners ever. And I hate emmitt

[powerANDgut]

I dont care if they are white, black, purple, yellow or green. Anyone with those numbers gets in. Im not saying we should start inducting CFL stars. What I AM saying is if his first 5-6 years were spent in the NFL, there is a good chance he'd be the all time pass leader. Dont try to interpret what Im saying. If you want to know, if you dont understand my words, just ask and I'll tell you. Your arguement that the CFL is pass friendly and the fields are bigger, BLA, BLA, BLA, is irrelevent considering Moon continued to shine in the NFL as well, AFTER he torched the CFL. You'd have a point if he did well in Canada then came to the NFL and stunk it up. :doh:

Ok, I want to know...tell me. BLA BLA BLA. The reason you have filler statements like these are that you have no points. Marino and Elway took their mediocre, sorry teams to the playoffs and went very far until they faced THE best team that year in the superbowl. Marino and Elways stats support the fact that their stats meant something to their team, Moons I'm not too sure. The Bills game he put up 30+ points in the first half. NOTHING in the second half. You can blame the Oilers D but the offense must have had eleven 3 and outs in a row.

The last few years Moon played he played for 3 different teams, he put up HUGE numbers his first year and then was benched the next year. Why is that? How do you get benched after throwing for 3-4,000 yards in a season? Could it be that the systems he played in inflated QB numbers. Randall/Minny and Kurt/STL ring a bell?

I don't believe that Moon is a first balloter. hall of famer YES. His stats are good but also in the middle to upper echelon of QB stats. Monk retired with the most catches EVER. He was the standard when he retired and he's still riding the pine.

[powerANDgut]

For you folks who said that Moon "presided" over the biggest collapse in NFL playoff history, or that he "chokes" in playoff games, take a look at his stats in that 1992 AFC wild card game:

36 of 50 (72% completion percentage is pretty good in my book) for 371 yards, 4 touchdowns against 2 interceptions.

Did nothing on offense to stop the Bills from getting back into the game. I would say a few first downs or a prolonged drive would have ended that game. Why not? Because they kept passing and not milking the clock, the anti-Gibbs approach.

Moon did not lose that game. The Houston defence did. If you put up 38 points as a qb, you are doing your job.

Lifetime playoff stats:

259/403 (64%)

2834 yards (283/game)

17 td's

14 int's

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MoonWa00.htm

Those are not "choker" stats in the playoffs. He was a great qb on mediocre teams with stupid offensive systems. I've got no problem seeing him in the hall of fame.

TD to Int ratio is almost 1/1. That's not really a good stat. You can still choke with good career playoff stats. How about having a good game and then when it gets tough you throw a McNabb to Roy Williams INT? Peyton Manning has good playoff numbers but wouldn't you say he chokes in the big one?

[81tothehall]

17 td's:14 int's

Thank you for the stat of the day. Who cares how many passing yards you have when you keep turning the ball over. I haven't heard anybody come up with one single game when they were impressed with him. Somebody please tell me the story of when Warren Moon really pulled the troops together and did some thing truly amazing. If you want toknow why Joe Montana was the greatest big game qb ever then look at his td:int ratio in the playoffs and the super bowl. How many comebacks did John Elway have that you can attribute mainly to him? I think that the comparison to Testaverde is extremely accurate and I don't think that anybody is going to go off the deep end if Vinny isn't a first ballot hall of famer. If Art Monk had been the 1st black wr to catch 400 passes he would have been put in.

[MadMonkey]

Even though Moon deserves alot of credit for his career numbers and HOF voting, but he is very far from being recognized as a pioneer. There were others qb's before that set the tone but did not get the opportunity to start like Moon did....such as Willie Thrower, and Marlon Briscoe, Vince Evans and James Harris.

When he was coming out of Washington State teams were trying to draft him as a DB which is why he went to the CFL, his NFL career #'s are staggering but people with argue his 1st ballot voting because he didn't win anything.

But the fact that he put up those type of #'s after spending 6yrs in the CFL are pretty hard to dismiss the fact that he may be deserving of a 1st ballot even though he didn't win any big games

[CowboySlayer]

Moon should be in the HOF but so should Monk. Moon never held records as a QB, Monk did.

just curious as to when monk was a qb :laugh: :laugh: :doh:

[painfulyetloyal]

TD to Int ratio is almost 1/1. That's not really a good stat. You can still choke with good career playoff stats. How about having a good game and then when it gets tough you throw a McNabb to Roy Williams INT? Peyton Manning has good playoff numbers but wouldn't you say he chokes in the big one?

And as far as youre concerned I would imagine if Peyton never wins or goes to a SB, then by your standards he's not a first ballot HOF'er? Its a TEAM sport bud, a QB cant do it all. Your rationalizations are bogus, nice try though.

[rdskn4eva]

What does race have to do anything in this context?

Why insert race into the discussion at all? Can we just say that Moon was a GREAT QB and leave it at that? I don't care if he was white, black, purple, or green.

If Moon was the 3rd black qb in the hof, then yes, you are right, big deal.

BUt hes the first in the 90+ year history of the sport, that is a big deal imo.

By the way, I am black.

[armstrong001]

TD to Int ratio is almost 1/1. That's not really a good stat. You can still choke with good career playoff stats. How about having a good game and then when it gets tough you throw a McNabb to Roy Williams INT? Peyton Manning has good playoff numbers but wouldn't you say he chokes in the big one?

How can you say that putting up 38 points in a game is choking? Last time I checked, Moon never played defense. If you put up 38 points, you expect to win. When your defense gives up 41, you expect to lose.

Playoff td/int ratios:

Dan Marino: 32/24

John Elway: 27/21

Troy Aikman: 24/17

Jim Kelly: 20/28

Dan Fouts: 12/16

These aren't exactly blazing ratios either. The years these guys went deep into the playoffs, they had above average, if not great defenses. Houston?

They weren't usually very good. Moon carried these teams as far as they would go. You want to see how much he did for the Houston teams?

1993 - Houston goes 12-4 in the regular season, Moon leaves after the season is over

1994 - Houston goes 2-14 in the regular season with all the same running backs, important wide recievers, etc. The difference? No Warren Moon.

I'm not saying that Moon is the greatest qb of all time. I'm saying he deserves to be in the hall of fame. So does Monk. They both deserve it equally. It pisses the hell out of me that Monk isn't in. But I also wouldn't take Moon out just to put Monk in.

[skinpride1]

Only Q.B.'s get the best chance to make hof!!!Randall C. is a sure lock for next years Hof!!!If your a Q.b. your in !!!!

[fpickering]

If Moon was the 3rd black qb in the hof, then yes, you are right, big deal.

BUt hes the first in the 90+ year history of the sport, that is a big deal imo.

By the way, I am black.

I agree that it is a great achievement but it should not factor into any argument for why Moon should or should not get into the HOF and whether it is on the first ballot.

[81tothehall]

Still haven't heard anybody describe a decent memory of Moon taking over a game. It is a team game but great qb's make avg. teams outstanding. You can take pot shots at the Oilers defense if you want to but Buddy Ryan put together some tough def. squads. one of the big reason that buffalo came back in that playoff game was that the offense couldn't stay on the field. moon choked just like he did his whole career. How can you set a record for the most fumbles lost and get in the hall of fame, anybody that justifies that is an idiot.

[Leonard Washington]

i can't see why people think he was a terrible qb. :whoknows:

eitherway i'm happy about it.

[Christblvr]

I wish that everone who responds to this post from now on remembers that the HOF is an individual accomplishment. Moon was, in my opinion, the most accurate Qb that I had ever seen. And yes knowone has put up better numbers than moon throughout the histoy of Pro Football. That means a lot when you think about what it takes to peform that well on a pofessional level year after year. Some of you need to stop haten and give the man his do respect. He deserve everything he is getting right now and I say congrats to him and his family.