bubba9497 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 monk did not win a superbowl and may not make it because of that. which is total b.s. monk will always be behind michael irvin who won 3 super bowls but has a hard time :doh: Art Monk played on 4 Super Bowl teams, 3 winning teams. and broke all the top receiving records. ************************ Warren Moon played in the pass happy CFL, and most of his NFL career in the pass happy run & shoot offense. A product of a system. HOF? yes... 1st Ballot? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrong001 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Still haven't heard anybody describe a decent memory of Moon taking over a game. It is a team game but great qb's make avg. teams outstanding. You can take pot shots at the Oilers defense if you want to but Buddy Ryan put together some tough def. squads. one of the big reason that buffalo came back in that playoff game was that the offense couldn't stay on the field. moon choked just like he did his whole career. How can you set a record for the most fumbles lost and get in the hall of fame, anybody that justifies that is an idiot. Lets see, who's #3 on that list of all time list for all time fumbles? John Elway with 137 fumbles. I guess he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame either? As for discounting his stats because of the Run-n-shoot, what about the first two seasons in Minnesota? Over 4200 yards in both seasons, and they weren't running that system. The guy had an arm. It wouldn't matter what system he was in. As long as you didn't have him handing the ball off 40 times a game, he was going to put numbers up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fpickering Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Lets see, who's #3 on that list of all time list for all time fumbles? John Elway with 137 fumbles. I guess he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame either? I think that the majority of the posters in this thread agree that Moon deserves to be in the HOF based on his statistics but overall he is not more deserving than Art Monk. This is what is eating at most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrong001 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 I think that the majority of the posters in this thread agree that Moon deserves to be in the HOF based on his statistics but overall he is not more deserving than Art Monk. This is what is eating at most of us. I agree that he is no more deserving. But I wouldn't keep him out just to put Monk in. Same as I wouldn't keep Monk out to put Moon in. But on the other hand, keeping Moon out isn't going to do anything to make other writers put Monk in. They are separate issues. Don't beat up on Moon because some writers are idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81tothehall Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Last time I'm going to post on this topic, the difference between Elway and Moon is night and day. If you go to the nfl's official website and look at historical stats there are a lot of mosts for Warren Moon and unfortunately most of those mosts are bad. You can't have a qb that sets the record for most fumbles in the PLAYOFFS in a career in the Hall of Fame. I grant that he was a good qb, but he was not a great qb. Members of the Hall of Fame should be great players and evidently they must change the game. The thing that Moon is most credited with is that he proved a black man could play qb. It is unfortunate that there was ever a time when people were so unbelievably stupid that they would play to such stereotypes but they did and it hasn't been that long of a time since that time. I also believe that Moon overcame a lot of racist bullcrap to get to the point of being a pro bowl qb. . I look at his records much the same way people say that Rockies hitters aren't as good as their stats say. I think that Moon gets a raw deal on the wife battery charge because nobody knows the whole story on that. But that being said i can think of a lot of guys who were great players that won't ever be in the Hall. Being the 1st successful black qb does not make him a great qb. I think he was something like 4-10 in the playoffs. I'm not saying that you have to win a super bowl to get to the hall, but damn at least have a .500 record in the playoffs.:hammer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrong001 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Most Pass attempts: #2 Elway - 7250 #3 Moon - 6823 Most Pass Completions #2 Elway - 4123 (56.9% completion percentage) #3 Moon - 3988 (58.4%) Passing Yards #2 Elway - 51,475 (7.1 yards/pass attempt) #3 Moon - 49,325 (7.2 yards/pass attempt) Touchdowns #4 Elway - 300 #5 Moon - 291 Career Passer Rating #31 Moon - 80.9 #39 Elway - 79.9 400 Yard Passing Games #2 Moon - 7 Elway - 2 300 Yard Passing Games #3 Moon - 39 Elway - ??? 4000 yard seasons Moon - 4 Elway - 1 3000 yard seasons Elway - 12 Moon - 9 Most Touchdowns in a Season Moon - 33 (twice) Elway - 27 Fumbles #1 Moon - 161 #3 Elway - 137 Fumbles Recovered Moon - 56 (Total turnovers = 105) Elway - 35 (Total turnovers = 102) Career Interceptions Moon - 233 Elway - 226 Elway and Moon compare pretty close on almost every stat, except for super bowl wins. But unless you keep out anyone who doesn't win one, you can't keep Moon out either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painfulyetloyal Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Still haven't heard anybody describe a decent memory of Moon taking over a game. It is a team game but great qb's make avg. teams outstanding. You can take pot shots at the Oilers defense if you want to but Buddy Ryan put together some tough def. squads. one of the big reason that buffalo came back in that playoff game was that the offense couldn't stay on the field. moon choked just like he did his whole career. How can you set a record for the most fumbles lost and get in the hall of fame, anybody that justifies that is an idiot. Great QBs do not turn average teams into outstanding teams, thats just ridiculous. :doh: QBs dont see the defensive side of the ball and an outstanding team is GREAT on both offense and defense, enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCMONEY Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I have no problem with Moon getting iin on the 1st ballot. Actually Aikman shouldn't be in on the 1st ballot to me. Aikman played a great team and The Cowbums had a great good defense. I get tired of people talking about how accurate he was yet his TD to INt ratio wasn't great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCMONEY Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Most Pass attempts:#2 Elway - 7250 #3 Moon - 6823 Most Pass Completions #2 Elway - 4123 (56.9% completion percentage) #3 Moon - 3988 (58.4%) Passing Yards #2 Elway - 51,475 (7.1 yards/pass attempt) #3 Moon - 49,325 (7.2 yards/pass attempt) Touchdowns #4 Elway - 300 #5 Moon - 291 Career Passer Rating #31 Moon - 80.9 #39 Elway - 79.9 400 Yard Passing Games #2 Moon - 7 Elway - 2 300 Yard Passing Games #3 Moon - 39 Elway - ??? 4000 yard seasons Moon - 4 Elway - 1 3000 yard seasons Elway - 12 Moon - 9 Most Touchdowns in a Season Moon - 33 (twice) Elway - 27 Fumbles #1 Moon - 161 #3 Elway - 137 Fumbles Recovered Moon - 56 (Total turnovers = 105) Elway - 35 (Total turnovers = 102) Career Interceptions Moon - 233 Elway - 226 Elway and Moon compare pretty close on almost every stat, except for super bowl wins. But unless you keep out anyone who doesn't win one, you can't keep Moon out either. Good Post!! :notworthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance04 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 if u think that Moon was a compiler and should not get in first ballot cuz he never won the big one, then u need to think the same of Dan Marino, who also played 17 years in the league and never won a SB.Fact is, both deserve to be in, probably both on first ballot. To discount someone because they compiled alot of stats because they played for so long is stupid. Isn't longevity a aspect that all athletes desire. Don't we as fans want the players to play for a long time? That is what my post was about. Monk gets discredited for this and Moon is praised for his longevity. That is why I see a double standard. exactly, tottaly agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highway66 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 in a word Absolutely moon was great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dent19 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Elway and Moon compare pretty close on almost every stat, except for super bowl wins. But unless you keep out anyone who doesn't win one, you can't keep Moon out either. It's the "Pro Football Hall Of Fame" not the "NFL HOF" You have to look at Moons stats from the CFL, USFL(i think he played there) then compare him to any other QB..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrong001 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 It's the "Pro Football Hall Of Fame" not the "NFL HOF"You have to look at Moons stats from the CFL, USFL(i think he played there) then compare him to any other QB..... I'm all for looking at CFL numbers as well. But I believe that if you aren't at least borderline with your NFL career, then you don't get in. In Moon's case, his NFL career by itself warrants Hall of Fame induction. Adding his CFL career puts him pretty close to the top of all professional qb's. I'm not going to sit here and argue that CFL is equivalent to NFL in terms of tallent. But 21,000 yards, 122 touchdowns, and five straight championships is great in any league. It's too bad he didn't put up those extra numbers in the NFL, or we'd be arguing if Moon or Marino was the best of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cakmoney61 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 But, what makes the Marino / Moon comparison utterly absurd is this .. Bang Bang, I'm not sure if you are referring to my post. I completely agree that there's no comparison when discussing Marino vs. Moon. In my opinion, Marino and Elway are the two best quarterbacks ever. My point is the negativity towards great players who never won a Super Bowl. Joe Montana never coached, or played defense, nor did he play special teams, but because his team won four Super Bowls, that makes him better than Dan Marino. I personally believe that if Marino and Montana switched teams, Marino would have the four rings. Montana was on better teams...period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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