powerANDgut Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Hey guys, first time posting I know there are a lot people angry at Peter King for blocking Monk in his bid to get into the Hall. I'm curious as to whether King voted for Moon. He always says that Monk was a compiler of numbers and that is why he is not deserving. I know Moon was a good quarterback in the NFL and previously in the CFL. I believe that he should be in the Hall but not first ballot. The problem I have is that Moon's stats and length of career are almost identical to Vinnie Testaverde, the ultimate compiler of numbers. Vinnie has the stats but none of us would ever say that he is a Hall of Famer. ................Moon:............... Vinnie T: games ------208......................223 att ---------6,823....................6,526 comp -------3,988....................3,691 yards -------49,325..................45,252 Td's --------291......................269 Ints --------233......................261 While Moon has slight advantages to Vinnie, their #s are easily interchangeable. Warren Moon spent 16 years in the NFL racking up an amazing amount of stats on the pass happy oilers. Vinnie spent his first 5 in the wasteland of Tampa yet their numbers are very similiar. What are your alls thoughts? Isn't Moon in the category of compiler?(I am not advocating for the induction of Vinnie T in any way, shape or form). King says that Monk wasn't prolific and only ran a 10 yard out or hitch. If this were true wouldn't Monk be easily shut down if all teams had to do was take away those patterns. The main point people should make to the likes of Peter King is that Art Monk was born big, tall and slow and he made the most out of his abilities. That is what I find to be Hall worthy. He accepted that he was never going to be a deep threat or whatever it is perceived to be a gamebreaker. He valued his position as a posession receiver and amazing blocker. He maximized his skills. You cannot hold him accountable for not being a deepthreat, as King has done, because it was impossible for him to do so. As to Kings Gary Clark references, the only way Clark is open deep is either playaction or if the safety is preoccupied with stopping other receivers, especially those coming across the middle...that would be Art. There's a difference between talent and skill. Irvin was talented, Monk was skilled. People that are skilled maximize their defficient talent. I put Art Monk in the category of a John Stockton. He accepted his strengths and weaknesses and tried to utilize his strengths as much as possible. Phew! That was a lot for a first post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer_sey_skins_fan Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I guess you gotta beat your wife to be considered for the Hall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdskn4eva Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Warren Moon was the first GREAT African American qb. Yes he is deserving of first ballot. Also, if he hadnt spend is first few years in Canada, he would prob be second all time in yards. Maybe first. 8 straight pro bowls, before the pro bowl became a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Unlike a lot of QBs these days who get overhyped (*cough*McNabb*cough*), Moon was the real deal. He was a great passer. He definitely deserves it. Also, I think the Pro Football Hall of Fame can take play other than in the NFL into account, because when he was announced, the stat they gave was 70,000 yards, which I assume includes the CFL. Those are stats close to Marino's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECU-ALUM Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Moon was as solid as they come on the field...he deserved to be in the H-O-F on his 1st try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Moon Combining his NFL and CFL stats, Moon's numbers are staggering: 5,357 completions for 70,613 yards and 435 touchdowns, all of which are massively higher than the NFL records for each catagory. Even if his Canadian League statistics are discounted, Warren Moon's career is still exceptional: 3,988 completions for 49,325 yards (the fourth-highest in NFL history), 291 touchdown passes, 1,736 yards rushing, and 22 rushing touchdowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvin Walton's Mohawk Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Warren was somewhat of a pioneer in that he was the first really successful african-american QB. He helped to pave the way for the all the great black QB's who play today.....but only ONE has ever won the Super Bowl! Doug Williams, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I thought Marino had somewhere around 75,000. Maybe not. EDIT: Nope, you're right. He had 61,361. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 So,let me get this straight. Moon has ZERO rings and presided over the worst playoff collapse in NFL history in 1992 when the Bills came back from a 35-3 deficit to beat the Oilers, and yet WM is in the HOF...............BASED ON HIS NUMBERS Meanwhile, Art Monk was hurt for the Redskins first Super Bowl, participated but did not star in the second and was a performer in the third against Buffalo with 7 catches for 114 yards..................and yet is not in the HOF.....why?.................... BECAUSE ALL HE HAS ARE GREAT NUMBERS AS PER PETER KING????? WTF?????? Moon is a numbers guy only. If numbers are NOT the only gauge there is no way #1 gets into the HOF. His teams never won anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Moon deserves to go, but not first ballot. Yes, i can see your point, he was a great black QB, but, in my mind, if we're supposed to ignore color, than it's time to stop making a big deal out of it all the damn time. The Hall of Fame should be about football. Moon holds one record, most fumbles in a career. He lost the biggest lead in NFL history, nevermind it was a playoff game to a backup QB. He never even SNIFFED a Super Bowl, and in my mind, the ring is important for the QB. I don't think it's the be-all/ end-all, but for a QB I think it is important to at least MADE it once, and a win is all the better. QBs are leaders of their teams, they are the god or the goat, so in my mind, leading a team to a championship is important. PLUS, not to mention how important the Super Bowl is to the players themselves, you constantly hear them say they are defined by the Super Bowl, players who are in it consider it exactly what it is, a nearly impossible plateau, and only the most deserving get there. (except maybe this year, it could be argued.) Monk retired with a crown-jewel record, rings, and the rest of the reasons we all know by rote. Moon deserves to go, but this year he should have held the door so a champion could walk thru. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggface gremlin Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Its the Pro Football Hall of Fame ,im pretty sure his CFL stats go in as well. Even if they dont he was a beast and was a great player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 CFL stats don't count. It is the NFL Hall of Fame. If CFL stats counted then guys like Dieter Brock who played in the NFL and put up big numbers in Canada would be candidates............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggface gremlin Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I guess you gotta beat your wife to be considered for the Hall I feel your pain from Jersey to Virginia my Redskins Brother , but he should get in 1st ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Really, when you think of league quarterbacks does Warren Moon's name really come to mind as you consider the best of all-time? Truthfully, he and Vinny who was also mentioned in this thread are guys with numbers based on longevity. During their playing careers I never thought of either as being the best. Or even in the top 5. And now they are going to build a shrine to these guys based on career numbers in a run and shoot offense where a guy like Ernest Givens catches 100 balls a year? :laugh: It's the football equivalent of Dave Kingman. He hit a lot of home runs in the majors but nobody puts him up there with the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painfulyetloyal Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Im not even going to read your thread, the title is enough to get a response out of me. Warren Moon absolutley lit this league up, not to mention the CFL. Now I understand the CFL isnt quite up to NFL standards, but he threw for I think close to 50,000 yards in the NFL after lighting it up for I think 5 or 6 years in the CFL. Absolutely, first ballod HOF'er. And we all agree that Monk should have been in long ago. It saddens me to discuss this any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painfulyetloyal Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 So,let me get this straight. Moon has ZERO rings and presided over the worst playoff collapse in NFL history in 1992 when the Bills came back from a 35-3 deficit to beat the Oilers, and yet WM is in the HOF...............BASED ON HIS NUMBERS Meanwhile, Art Monk was hurt for the Redskins first Super Bowl, participated but did not star in the second and was a performer in the third against Buffalo with 7 catches for 114 yards..................and yet is not in the HOF.....why?.................... BECAUSE ALL HE HAS ARE GREAT NUMBERS AS PER PETER KING????? WTF?????? Moon is a numbers guy only. If numbers are NOT the only gauge there is no way #1 gets into the HOF. His teams never won anything. So your saying in order to get into the HOF, you must have atleast 1 ring? NONSENSE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painfulyetloyal Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 CFL stats don't count. It is the NFL Hall of Fame. If CFL stats counted then guys like Dieter Brock who played in the NFL and put up big numbers in Canada would be candidates............ Your wrong, its the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME, not the NFL PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spm Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I watched both play, and Moon was a much better QB than Aikman. Let's discuss Aikman's (lack of) HOF credentials before we start talking about Moon's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyf316 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Im not even going to read your thread, the title is enough to get a response out of me. Warren Moon absolutley lit this league up, not to mention the CFL. Now I understand the CFL isnt quite up to NFL standards, but he threw for I think close to 50,000 yards in the NFL after lighting it up for I think 5 or 6 years in the CFL. Absolutely, first ballod HOF'er.And we all agree that Monk should have been in long ago. It saddens me to discuss this any longer. My main dissent from your arguement is that the Pro Football Hall of Fame is for NFL players / coaches and their achievements while with the NFL in some capacity. As great as Moon's CFL performance is, it can't be considered when arguing to induct him into Canton. After removing the CFL data from the equation, Moon is still a HoF'er. I don't believe that he should be first ballot, but he definately belongs there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zt155 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Moon=Dan Marino. Plain and simple. If Moon played in the NFL from the get-go, he would have all of Marino's records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zt155 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 My main dissent from your arguement is that the Pro Football Hall of Fame is for NFL players / coaches and their achievements while with the NFL in some capacity. As great as Moon's CFL performance is, it can't be considered when arguing to induct him into Canton. After removing the CFL data from the equation, Moon is still a HoF'er. I don't believe that he should be first ballot, but he definately belongs there. It's the Pro Football Hall of Fame. CFL is Pro Football. Even without his CFL stats I still think he's a Hall of Famer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyf316 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Your wrong, its the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME, not the NFL PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME. No, YOU are wrong. There is not any provision for any Pro league outside the NFL, any of its affiliates or incorporates, in any past or present form, to have members inducted. It is an entirely NFL-related venture, and can be further proven by the method used to determine induction. There is not one Canadian Football League host city writer representing their interests. "Election of new members to the Pro Football Hall of Fame is solely the responsibility of the 39-member Board of Selectors, a committee largely made up of sports writers. Each NFL city has one representative with two from New York City, because of its two teams. There also is a representative of the Pro Football Writers Association, and six are at-large representatives." Pro Football Hall of Fame Facts and History: http://www.profootballhof.com/hall/release.jsp?release_id=932 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyf316 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 It's the Pro Football Hall of Fame. CFL is Pro Football. Even without his CFL stats I still think he's a Hall of Famer. The XFL, short lived as it was, was Pro Football too. Want to include their numbers?:doh: Canton is, and always has been, meant for the NFL (and its earlier forms and incorporated partners, like the AFL). That's not to say that it can't easily be changed to represent the CFL and NFLUK, but it's not a part of the consideration right now. That's just how it is at the current time. Right now, Canton is NFL. That means that NFL stats are what get reviewed in order to determine who is enshrined. That discounts all other Pro leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItaliaMuscle Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Moon had the right stuff. I've seen the videos recapping his career. unfortunately for him he never won the big one but he still is very deserving of the HOF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dent19 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 his stats are #1 in pro football for qb's(NFL, CFL, USFL)....... he deserves it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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