stevenaa Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Your viewpoint of it is false, that's the problem. If anything, it's more peaceful than Christianity. Zealots like Hezbollah, al Queda, the Knights Templar, etc. exist in every religion. They don't represent the religion. Keep in mind, also, there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. How many are causing these problems? The problem is that right now they are absolutely the voice of Islam. Right or wrong, that is the perception. Ask an average person on the street what their perception of Islam is and you know what the response will be. The radicals need to be silenced to stop the spread. The more airtime they get, the bolder and stronger they will become. When are we going to see huge peace marches by the moderate muslims in these countries? When is the religion of peace going to stand up and be accounted for? You may want to argue that it isn't their responsibility, but I believe it is. I believe the moderates need to take a stand and defend their religion, because it will surely suffer if they do not. If a Mosque was slated for my neighborhood, I would object to it vehemently because I can't trust the intentions. This is a sad thing. I believe in freedom of religion for all, so long as the law is observed. Religious freedom for all will suffer is this gets out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Your viewpoint of it is false, that's the problem. If anything, it's more peaceful than Christianity. Zealots like Hezbollah, al Queda, the Knights Templar, etc. exist in every religion. They don't represent the religion. Keep in mind, also, there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. How many are causing these problems? Fine. How many people in modern Christianity are kidnapping contractors or pilgrims and threatening to kill them or just beheading/shooting them on recordings? How many are hanging their burnt bodies from bridges in the middle of town? How many modern Christians are destroying symbols from other religions (such as Buddhism) for no more reason than the fact they exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Your viewpoint of it is false, that's the problem. If anything, it's more peaceful than Christianity. Zealots like Hezbollah, al Queda, the Knights Templar, etc. exist in every religion. They don't represent the religion. Keep in mind, also, there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. How many are causing these problems? Yeah, Timmy McVeigh killed a lot of people. How many followers in his organization? 10,000? When Iran elects a known terrorist as President, then to me, yeah, it's fair to label the entire country as "terrorist". If the Palestenians don't like the way the word "Palestenian" automatically gets followed by "bomber", then maybe they shouldn't vote for Hesbollah. When terrorists start winning elections, then the whole "it's just a few extremists" defense stops working. (Now, the flip side of that is: I'll admit that Pat Robertson isn't exactly powerless in the US political game, either. And yes, when the US re-elected Bush, even knowing that we went to war in Iraq based on mythical WMDs, then it also became legitimate for the rest of the world to judge our country based on W's actions, too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 The problem is that right now they are absolutely the voice of Islam. Right or wrong, that is the perception. Ask an average person on the street what their perception of Islam is and you know what the response will be. The radicals need to be silenced to stop the spread. The more airtime they get, the bolder and stronger they will become. When are we going to see huge peace marches by the moderate muslims in these countries? When is the religion of peace going to stand up and be accounted for? You may want to argue that it isn't their responsibility, but I believe it is. I believe the moderates need to take a stand and defend their religion, because it will surely suffer if they do not. If a Mosque was slated for my neighborhood, I would object to it vehemently because I can't trust the intentions. This is a sad thing. I believe in freedom of religion for all, so long as the law is observed. Religious freedom for all will suffer is this gets out of hand. I don't necessarily disagree with you in this respect. I just don't think anyone should make assumptions about the religion based upon its extremists rather than its actual tenets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Fine.How many people in modern Christianity are kidnapping contractors or pilgrims and threatening to kill them or just beheading/shooting them on recordings? How many are hanging their burnt bodies from bridges in the middle of town? How many modern Christians are destroying symbols from other religions (such as Buddhism) for no more reason than the fact they exist? I'm not saying that right now, Christian extremists are worse. I'm saying that over time they're at least equally as bad. More importantly, the only reason I brought Christian extremists into this is to prove the point that you can't judge a religion based on its extremists. I see how much my comment got to you guys, and I'm assuming you're Christians. Maybe now you see how Muslims feel when you make false assumptions about their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Yeah, Timmy McVeigh killed a lot of people. How many followers in his organization? 10,000? When Iran elects a known terrorist as President, then to me, yeah, it's fair to label the entire country as "terrorist". If the Palestenians don't like the way the word "Palestenian" automatically gets followed by "bomber", then maybe they shouldn't vote for Hesbollah. When terrorists start winning elections, then the whole "it's just a few extremists" defense stops working. (Now, the flip side of that is: I'll admit that Pat Robertson isn't exactly powerless in the US political game, either. And yes, when the US re-elected Bush, even knowing that we went to war in Iraq based on mythical WMDs, then it also became legitimate for the rest of the world to judge our country based on W's actions, too.) Larry, you're missing the point. All I'm trying to say is that it's foolish to call a religion a "religion of violence" based upon it's more violent followers. You could do that with any religion, as I've just proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 I see how much my comment got to you guys, and I'm assuming you're Christians. Maybe now you see how Muslims feel when you make false assumptions about their religion. Nothing personal, but that now sounds like an argument from an 18 year-old. Christianity has had its warts, but it has changed over time. That's why it still exists and why it is still the worlds largest religion. That's why it has survived through schisms, separations, new branches, dishonor in the Papacy (The Medici, etcetera). The ME (and the Far East, in many cases) is full of people who still want to live in 8th Century AD, regardless whether they take a knife to someone. It wasn't about taking anything personally, it was about comparing/contrasting what's going on in the year 2006 between the world's two biggest faiths. I take nothing personally, but I wouldn't exactly walk down the street in the ME worried for my life that a Jew, Protestant or a Sikh would kidnap me and saw off my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Nothing personal, but that now sounds like an argument from an 18 year-old.It wasn't about taking anything personally, it was about comparing/contrasting what's going on in the year 2006 between the world's two biggest faiths. I take nothing personally, but I wouldn't exactly walk down the street in the ME worried for my life that a Jew, Protestant or a Sikh would kidnap me and saw off my head. My argument was completely valid. What right does any Christian have to get up in arms when someone characterizes their religion by its extremists, when people of their religion (and other religions) do that to Muslims all the time? I was just putting it out there to see what the reaction was, and I can't say it was any different than I thought it would be. All I'm trying to point out is that it is wrong for anyone to characterize any religion by it's crazies, rather than what the religion actually stands for. Sure, Muslim extremism is a big deal right now, but over the course of time Christian extremism has claimed just as many, if not more lives. It's not right to judge Christianity on that, just like it's not right to judge Islam on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Okay, so remember the round-and-round arguments that never stop and are the same arguments that have been had in numerous other threads that the mods were talking about?? This is one of them. :2cents: Just thought I'd get that in here before yet another thread gets closed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Okay, so remember the round-and-round arguments that never stop and are the same arguments that have been had in numerous other threads that the mods were talking about?? This is one of them. :2cents:Just thought I'd get that in here before yet another thread gets closed... No it's not. Thanks for looking out, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief skin Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 700,000 is a substantial crowd.We may not like what they are telling us, but we would be fools not to pay attention. It is a CULT not a religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air Force Cane Posted February 9, 2006 Author Share Posted February 9, 2006 Just to inform the readership: While Beirut has many Christians, it is also partly Sunni and partly Shia. In particular, Hizbollah has a stronghold in the south of the Lebanon and the Bekaa Valley, with the Maronites in the northern coastal area. So, while we do have pro-western Lebanese who helped kick out the Syrians, there are also hundreds of thousands of Hizbullah "supporters" there as well. It is also the Ashoura Islamic festival by the Shiites which is their holiest day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 No religion here... Christianity: Virgin Mary covered in Feces in NY (12millionlocal) (0 dead) Islam: Mohammed with a bomb hat Danish newspaper (11peoplelocal) (still counting) no contest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Christian extremists are just as, if not more hate-filled and violent than Muslim extremists. It's offical. You're an idiot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 It's offical. You're an idiot... Johnny, you're going to have to substantiate a claim like that. Moreover, just because I offended what's probably your religion doesn't mean you can spout hate like this. Because what I say is true. More people have been killed by Christian extremists and zealots over time than they have by Muslim ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 No it's not. Thanks for looking out, though. Actually, it is...seeing as how I've participated in this very discussion in previous threads (and been chastised for taking your very position). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Actually, it is...seeing as how I've participated in this very discussion in previous threads (and been chastised for taking your very position). Fair enough. You're right. I just didn't think people who are NORMALLY logical would come in spouting abuse, rather than actually debating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Johnny, you're going to have to substantiate a claim like that. Moreover, just because I offended what's probably your religion doesn't mean you can spout hate like this. Because what I say is true. More people have been killed by Christian extremists and zealots over time than they have by Muslim ones. We are not talking about the hundreds of years ago. We are talking about the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 We are not talking about the hundreds of years ago. We are talking about the present. We're talking about one person classifying an entire religion by it's extremists. My comment was just pointing out that one can do the same with Christianity. Obviously I struck a chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frommd Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 The religion itself is not violent or hate filled. Agreed Alex. But, the only voices you hear from this religion are hate-filled and violent. Need a lot more peaceful voices denouncing the violence. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tizzod Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 I think the biggest problem with the Muslim religion/world right now is, while probably 90-95% of them are fine, law-abiding folks, the 5-10% that are the troublemakers are doing all the screaming and yelling. We aren't hearing any moderate Muslim voices ANYWHERE, with any kind of regularity or forcefulness at least, so our perspective gets skewed. I don't know if they are all afraid of getting blown up or what, but until they decide to take their religion back, there is really nothing we can do. They WILL continue to be profiled, and they WILL have people have a negative perception of them. It's their fault, not ours. I know it's not the cool, PC thing to say, but the fact remains that MUSLIMS are the ones blowing everything up. We're not supposed to say that out loud, of course, but facts are facts. The moderates need to come out against the freaks and reclaim their religion. When that happens, maybe everything will stop. Clean up your own backyard before you start screaming at me about what I'm not doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 I think the biggest problem with the Muslim religion/world right now is, while probably 90-95% of them are fine, law-abiding folks, the 5-10% that are the troublemakers are doing all the screaming and yelling. We aren't hearing any moderate Muslim voices ANYWHERE, with any kind of regularity or forcefulness at least, so our perspective gets skewed.I don't know if they are all afraid of getting blown up or what, but until they decide to take their religion back, there is really nothing we can do. They WILL continue to be profiled, and they WILL have people have a negative perception of them. It's their fault, not ours. I know it's not the cool, PC thing to say, but the fact remains that MUSLIMS are the ones blowing everything up. We're not supposed to say that out loud, of course, but facts are facts. The moderates need to come out against the freaks and reclaim their religion. When that happens, maybe everything will stop. Clean up your own backyard before you start screaming at me about what I'm not doing. Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frommd Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 The thing that scares me is that this is in Beirut, Lebanon. The same place that had the protests last year against Syria that we were all so happy to see. This is the fundamentalist effort to turn the masses back to their side, and so far it seems to be working. That is why our response needs to be measured. From an article in the New York Post: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/61596.htm "People watching TV news may think that the whole Muslim world is ablaze with righteous rage translated into "spontaneous demonstrations." The truth is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims, even if offended by cartoons which they have not seen, have stayed away from the street shows put on by the radicals and the Iranian and Syrian security services." Talks about how this whole thing is being drummed up by the extremists. Most of the crowds are being bused in for the demonstrations. Pretty good read. You will have to register to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 So anyone care to get back to the specific topic of the thread...that being the confrontation between Bush/Rice and the loudmouth? Does this confrontation reflect on the larger attempt by the US to try to calm things down...meaning how universal are the feelings or words expressed by this hatemonger? Does this make things worse, rile up other leaders against us, or make them stop and say, "wait a minute...shut up yourself dumbass, you don't speak for us." I didn't really expect much impact from Bush or Rice's comments on this particular situation, but I thought that they would at least help make us look better to the Islamic community by trying to respect their feelings while at the same time asking for the violence to stop. But if this is the response that we get overall...maybe it would have been better not to have said anything. Does the combination of Bush/Rice's coments and then this guy's response make things better or worse? (Without going into personal attacks on Bush or Rice, please.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 frommd and tizzod nailed it. What's paralyzing the Muslim moderates from speaking out may be a fear of a reprisal. I hope that someone from the middle can speak out and diffuse this situation--irrespective of this very real, rational fear--otherwise the world may be in for serious trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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