Can trading Patrick Ramsey really make us better?

[BrunellSuperbowl]

Ramsey was a bad draft pick. He was only drafted because Snyder could not get Harrington.

Campbell i hope is better. I think Campbell can play in the NFL because he played in a tough conference and went undefeated.

[REDMAN7]

Coach Gibbs has stated how "valuable" Ramsey is and also how much the Redskins have "invested in him". I would be surprised if the Redskins let him go for anything less than a 2nd or 3rd round pick. After all, without Ramsey we are in deep trouble if Brunell gets injured and Campbell is not ready as advertised. My other question is what team would promise Ramsey a starting job? The Jets for example still have Pennington and there is talk of them drafting Cutler in Rd1.

There are at least 3 QB's likely to go in the first round of the draft. Also, teams will have other options in QB's such as Collins, Kitna, Warner and Culpepper who all may be on the market soon via trade or FA. I just can't help but think Ramsey may find himself in a similar situation as with the Redskins, battling his guts out just to find himself relegated to being the #2 QB once again. For Ramseys sake, I hope he does not end up on a losing team being mauled in the pocket the way he once was under Spurrier.

[Butz65]

. My other question is what team would promise Ramsey a starting job?

I think the Dolphins offered interest during the regular season. That would make sense as Frerotte doesn't appear to be a long term solution. Also the Raiders - especially if Kerry Collins is released. Culpepper will most likely be reisgned by the Vikings. The only QB you listed that might be more attractive to a team (in terms of youth, contract, etc.) would be Kitna (in my opinion). Warner and Collins are both arguably at the end of their stays in the NFL.

[AJ_Skins]

but Jason Campbell is the future and will be an amazing quarterback, but he can't get ready if he's not on the field!

Sucks to be in a pickle like we are right now. Take a quarterback on the downside of his career and try and compete or transition to the franchise quarterback with his ups and downs of his (basically) rookie season and waste that amazing defense.

Or Jason Campbell could just be the next Ben Roethlisberger

When Ramsey was drafted, did anybody label him a "franchise quarterback" or "the future of the team" before he ever hit the field? No. They were both drafted near the end of the first round, and if anything, Ramsey was a slightly better prospect coming out of college, and was rated higher on draft boards. This insane over-inflation of Campbell has got to stop somewhere.

[AJ_Skins]

I dont think there is much of an arguement against the fact that it would be better to have Ramsey here than not have him. The thing is, Ramsey is in his 4th year as an NFL QB. Its about time he goes and starts for a team, if he has properly developed. So the big question and the one that will ultimately determine whether he stays with the Redskins, is do they see him competing for the starting job next year. Gibbs knows this. Gibbs knows that this is Ramseys time to start in his career, so if hes not gonna start for the Redskins, why hold him back? Gibbs is a nice person who thinks about other people. So if the starting job is being handed to Brunell or Campbell before next season starts, there is no reason to keep Ramsey and hinder him, so Gibbs will trade him to a team he gets a chance to start for.

Ramseys learning is over. Now hes gonna start for a team one way or the other(or be proven he cant start), so the whole decision of whether we keep him or not is whether he gets to compete to start for us, or our starting job is already Brunell or Campbells.

I agree in part...I think the Redskins should keep him and let him compete. Where we disagree is that I don't think they should let him go in any event. What's best for Ramsey and what's best for the team may be two different things, and in that case, those making the decisions have a responsibility to do what's best for the team.

[zoony]

This insane over-inflation of Campbell has got to stop somewhere.

+ Y

[Butz65]

When Ramsey was drafted, did anybody label him a "franchise quarterback" or "the future of the team" before he ever hit the field? No. They were both drafted near the end of the first round, and if anything, Ramsey was a slightly better prospect coming out of college, and was rated higher on draft boards. This insane over-inflation of Campbell has got to stop somewhere.

Actually - many people dubbed Patrick the savior and future of the team. Although you can't blame PR for that - the other QB's on the team we're pretty bad. I remember Snyder sitting on the sidelines with Jurgensen puffing on cigars and remarking on how he (Snyder) had picked Ramsey to lead the Redskins into the future.

I don't dislike Ramsey I just don't get the infatuation with him. He's accomplished exactly zero here. As I said before, other QBs have accomplished more with less on offense. The knock on him coming out of college was that he held onto the ball for too long (interesting that he was battered in college as well as the pros - holding the ball for too long will do that to you) and didn't read the field very well. He's done nothing at this level to change that.

I see him as a decent #2 in this league (and perhaps a starter if he fixes the issues mentioned above). I just don't see how it makes sense to keep him as the #3 QB when we could pick up a player who could help us elsewhere.

Also - I'm not over-inflating Campbell's value. However - a team has to give their top picks a shot (similar to the shot Ramsey received after he was drafted). Burying Campbell behind Brunell and Ramsey doesn't make sense given the investment made by the team.

[REDMAN7]

I think the Dolphins offered interest during the regular season. That would make sense as Frerotte doesn't appear to be a long term solution. Also the Raiders - especially if Kerry Collins is released. Culpepper will most likely be reisgned by the Vikings. The only QB you listed that might be more attractive to a team (in terms of youth, contract, etc.) would be Kitna (in my opinion). Warner and Collins are both arguably at the end of their stays in the NFL.

That's my fear for Ramsey. Wanting out so bad he could end up on a team like the Raiders...who cannot even land a new coach. With the Broncos, Chiefs and Chargers in that division, the Raiders may be in for several more years of doom and gloom. Miami would be my first choice if I were him, however ever since they changed head coaches I have not heard any new rumors about Pat going to Miami.

[AJ_Skins]

Actually - many people dubbed Patrick the savior and future of the team.

I don't remember anybody ever doing that. Especially not before he ever played in a game. Furthermore, the team was not good at that point. We had nothing to lose by playing him. The team's investment in Campbell is not like the investment a team makes in a top 5 QB. If he totally flops, it won't be a disaster for the team the way Ryan Leaf was for the Chargers. There is no rush to get him on the field, especially not given how strong the rest of the team is. We need to put the best possible QB on the field next year, and the best way to do that is to have as much talent at the position as possible and let the best man win. Hopefully they realize that before it's too late.

[Butz65]

Hey AJ - check out the "Redskins.com: Issue One" thread. Perhaps I'm not the only one who thinks that Ramsey is out of here and that Campbell is close to leading this team into the future.

[Slateman]

It would depend on what we could get for him. But I think we at least owe Ramsey a chance to start. Its apparant that he isn't going to here, so we should trade him and see what we can get.

Honestly, I'm starting to lean towards Arrington and Ramsey for Abraham. Doubt the Jets would bite, but . . . .

[Mr. Grundle]

AJ threads are worthy of so many different smilies, hard to pick the best one. I suppose...

:shot:

[portis&taylor]

the problem is he doesnt wanna be a backup other wise of course we would pick him.

[roadkill]

It all depends on how good Campbell is when the season starts. I never hear about how he is progressing.

[Jumbo]

Actually - many people dubbed Patrick the savior and future of the team. Although you can't blame PR for that - the other QB's on the team we're pretty bad. I remember Snyder sitting on the sidelines with Jurgensen puffing on cigars and remarking on how he (Snyder) had picked Ramsey to lead the Redskins into the future.

Despite some people not remembering that, I was one of those "Pat is the Chosen One" hopefuls, Butz65. And there were indeed many others.

There were a significant number of times I felt all revved up only to feel my hopes crushed by what actually happened on the field with PR, including, the most recent (minus the Giants this year) go-around when In was hoping he would now have it finally together under Gibbs.

I often noted the irony when I'd read how some fanatic anti-Brunell people were after I experienced all of that other PR-based disappointment and now was headed for good things for the first time in years, yet I never had the urge to bash Patrick during those bad days, nor wish ill upon him, the way I see that small but noisy group of posters did/still do with Brunell.

My last disappointment was when Joe removed all doubts of support for Pat, had the new offense in place, gave him the reins and Pat unfortunately showed all the same probs plus a backward step in the OTA's, practices, and pre-season games. And of course, as he started us off against Chicago.

And, as you point out, Pat never even had a stretch where he showed as much as Mark did last year.

Still, I never got personally vicious towards Pat about it, and still wish him the best. My opinion of the handful of that type of obsessed Brunell-basher or Ramsey-promoter (NOT the rational critics/fans) that does do such stuff is very low. It's sad to me they get to call themselves Redskins fans.

And it's fair to point out the struggles Pat faced with changing schemes complicating his path, and to feel sympathy for it, yet another valid way to evaluate it, as a bottom line, is Pat had two completely different sets of coaches and schemes, and thus chances, to make it as a starting QB and it didn't happen.

Any player in that situation has to take the bulk of the responsibility for such a result. I do hope Pat has success as #1 somewhere, he seems a great guy to me, just like Mark. The future is indeed going to looking upon Campbell rising as Brunell fades (and maybe not quickly) and Ramsey perhaps shining elsewhere.

[AJ_Skins]

For the sake of summary:

If all we have is Brunell and Campbell, we're going into next year with almost no chance of winning the Super Bowl. To me that's a position a team should never put itself in, especially when they went to the second round of the playoffs last year. They've got to have somebody else on the roster who there's some reason to believe can start and win games.

If we get halfway through the season and realize we don't have a QB who can take the team to the postseason, the effect on the team and fans is going to be extremely negative...but especially on the team. To make the playoffs for the first time in 6 years and then turn around the next year and "rebuild" with a de facto rookie QB learning the ropes is not an option. All of those players who have been busting their tails on defense will be demoralized, and they may even become disenchanted with Gibbs for putting the team in that situation.

Are we going to be a winning franchise, or are we going to be satisfied with mediocrity and constantly "waiting 'til next year"? To me that's the issue at stake here.

[88Comrade2000]

For the sake of summary:

If all we have is Brunell and Campbell, we're going into next year with almost no chance of winning the Super Bowl. To me that's a position a team should never put itself in, especially when they went to the second round of the playoffs last year. They've got to have somebody else on the roster who there's some reason to believe can start and win games.

If we get halfway through the season and realize we don't have a QB who can take the team to the postseason, the effect on the team and fans is going to be extremely negative.

you trust Ramsey to take us to a superbowl :laugh:

Ramsey is gone. If joe Gibbs really believe in Ramsey- Brunnell never would've been brought here. We'd probably would've gotten say Gus Ferrotte- name rings a bell or Trent Dilfer. Someone who would push Ramsey but not be the full time starter.

Brunnell was brought here with intentions of being the starter and when he couldn't get it down in 2004- we went to Ramsey. Though Gibbs said in his statements this past offseason that Brunnell may still have more life here even as he was publically saying Ramsey. Brunnell was the guy who got the job after one game.

It's best for the Skins and Ramsey to part. The skins will sign a suitable 3rd stringer-who may in reality be a 2nd stringer but for depth purposes will be the third stringer.

[AJ_Skins]

you trust Ramsey to take us to a superbowl :laugh:

Ramsey is gone. If joe Gibbs really believe in Ramsey- Brunnell never would've been brought here. We'd probably would've gotten say Gus Ferrotte- name rings a bell or Trent Dilfer. Someone who would push Ramsey but not be the full time starter.

Brunnell was brought here with intentions of being the starter and when he couldn't get it down in 2004- we went to Ramsey. Though Gibbs said in his statements this past offseason that Brunnell may still have more life here even as he was publically saying Ramsey. Brunnell was the guy who got the job after one game.

It's best for the Skins and Ramsey to part. The skins will sign a suitable 3rd stringer-who may in reality be a 2nd stringer but for depth purposes will be the third stringer.

I think the goal should be having the most possible talent and the most possible options on hand at the QB position next year, because we do not have a clearly entrenched long term starter, and the rest of the team is championship caliber. Whether that's Ramsey or somebody else is irrelevant, but keeping Ramsey is the easiest way to do it. I wouldn't mind Kurt Warner, but I don't think he's going to be available.

[bulldog]

I think the Redskins have gone as far with Ramsey as they are going to go. He accepted being benched in 2005 without creating dissension on the club even at 5-6, but I doubt he is going to come back to sit for another year at age 26.

From the reports he cleared out all of his things from Redskins Park and was not contacted by Al Saunders when he joined the Skins staff as Mark Brunell and Jason Campbell were.

That tells me that Gibbs has already told Saunders that Ramsey will be traded.

And to tell the truth, the Redskins could sorely use some draft choices to rebuild some depth on the lines.

If the Skins could get two picks for Ramsey and make the most of them, I think we would be at a win/win.

[88Comrade2000]

I think the goal should be having the most possible talent and the most possible options on hand at the QB position next year, because we do not have a clearly entrenched long term starter, and the rest of the team is championship caliber. Whether that's Ramsey or somebody else is irrelevant, but keeping Ramsey is the easiest way to do it. I wouldn't mind Kurt Warner, but I don't think he's going to be available.

I'll say it again- there's no point in keeping a player that the coaches no longer believe in. Coaches have never believed in Ramsey and I don't think that would change with him on team in 2006. Campbell would probably be higher on the depth chart with Ramsey 3rd string. I don't think Ramsey will want to do that. We can't sign some to fill that need. IF we do have to end up starting Campbell this season- we won't have to worry about a superbowl-we will have to deal with his struggles. The QB situation will sort itself out, but it Ramsey won't be among the solution.

[bulldog]

Ramsey was valuable as insurance in 2005 because Campbell was simply not ready to play as a rookie.

He showed that in the Giants game. He came in, played well, lead the team to a scoring drive and managed the game after Brunell went out with the injury.

But Ramsey and the staff realize it is a short-term marriage.

I don't see much chance that Ramsey will be back unless Saunders takes a look at Brunell and Campbell and somehow decides he likes Ramsey and wants to start him.

But what are the chances of that happening?

Saunders seems to like quarterbacks whose primary asset is accuracy. Ramsey is a lot of things but accurate and efficient in his distribution of the ball?

[AJ_Skins]

Ramsey was valuable as insurance in 2005 because Campbell was simply not ready to play as a rookie.

He showed that in the Giants game. He came in, played well, lead the team to a scoring drive and managed the game after Brunell went out with the injury.

But Ramsey and the staff realize it is a short-term marriage.

I don't see much chance that Ramsey will be back unless Saunders takes a look at Brunell and Campbell and somehow decides he likes Ramsey and wants to start him.

But what are the chances of that happening?

Saunders seems to like quarterbacks whose primary asset is accuracy. Ramsey is a lot of things but accurate and efficient in his distribution of the ball?

Saunders' offense is about pushing the ball down the field in the passing game. That's the way he described it himself. Ramsey would have to be at least somewhat attractive in that respect. Characterizing him as some sort of worthless bum is inaccurate, and it's a mistake to think we know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the staff thinks.

My bottom line point is this: can they replace him with someone better? If the answer is no, they should keep him.

[bulldog]

it's not merely pushing the ball down the field, but doing so with efficiency

Trent Green throws for a high percentage and has always been a player that makes good decisions with where he throws the ball. He showed that in DC in 1998 when he got to play.

Ramsey doesn't consistently throw the ball with accuracy and great touch. And that is a concern. Imagining an offense with Ramsey engineering 80 yard drives accented by the 15-20 yard outs and splits down the middle is just a bit difficult given what we have seen from him in the games he has started.

[Mr. Grundle]

For the sake of summary:

If all we have is Brunell and Campbell, we're going into next year with almost no chance of winning the Super Bowl. To me that's a position a team should never put itself in, especially when they went to the second round of the playoffs last year. They've got to have somebody else on the roster who there's some reason to believe can start and win games.

If we get halfway through the season and realize we don't have a QB who can take the team to the postseason, the effect on the team and fans is going to be extremely negative...but especially on the team. To make the playoffs for the first time in 6 years and then turn around the next year and "rebuild" with a de facto rookie QB learning the ropes is not an option. All of those players who have been busting their tails on defense will be demoralized, and they may even become disenchanted with Gibbs for putting the team in that situation.

Are we going to be a winning franchise, or are we going to be satisfied with mediocrity and constantly "waiting 'til next year"? To me that's the issue at stake here.

This is seriously your whole argument? 1500+ posts to explain that with Patrick Ramsey we have a better chance at winning the Super Bowl than with some other 3rd-stringer? :laugh:

Okay, you are right. I will concede that Patrick Ramsey is probably better than most 3rd-string QB's in this league.

The fact remains, Pat would be 3rd string if he came back next year....100% no questions asked.

Now, what are the chances the Redskins make it to the SB next year? Slim, of course, even if people thought we were favorites going into the season. I think our odds are 1-22 or something right now. What's that around 5%?

Now, what are the chances that we end up needing our 3rd-string QB at any point in the season next year? Very slim. How many teams had their 3rd-stringer forced into action this season? I can think of the Jets and the Rams...and for the Rams it was a couple games only. Again, maybe a 5% chance Ramsey is actually needed at any point next year. And yes, that is the only chance he gets in a game, if Brunell and Campbell both get hurt.

When I combine all these numbers in my head (I am a mathmatical genius, trust me) I calculate that there is probably less than a 1% chance that we actually end up with our 3rd-string QB in the line-up next year AND STILL be in a position for him to lead us to the Super Bowl.

If that scenario were to play out then yes AJ, you are right, it would be better to keep Patrick Ramsey.

Now, what are the chances we end up needing a back-up O-lineman sometime next year? Probably higher than 1%? Okay, agreed. I would say we have a better chance at winning the Super Bowl with a solid backup O-lineman than with Patrick Ramsey. Hell, we might have been there THIS year if we had a solid replacement for Thomas in exchange for Ramsey's roster spot.

This is what it comes down to AJ. The draft pick we can get for Ramsey THIS YEAR, as opposed to getting nothing for him after this year, is MUCH more valuable to us (thinking in terms of likely scenarios) than keeping him for the less than 1% chance he has at helping us win the Super Bowl next season.

This isn't just my opinion. This is a rocket-science super-quantum-physics quasi-moto mathmatical equation that I'm laying out for you here, so you can't disagree.

Do you really want what is best for this team? Or is it more about continuously trying to prove your unprovable opinion?

Bahhhh....what am I thinking even trying..... :doh:

[BrunellSuperbowl]

there is no QB debate.

Campbell will start next yr. Guranteed. There is no way to justify not starting him.

1. He will make rookie mistakes? Well every QB in the world makes rookie mistakes. He will be a rookie no matter if u play him on 06 or 09.

2. We can not take a step back! Well if he is the future you are going to have to take a step back this yr or next yr. Why would you delay taking the step back to next yr?

3. Mark earned the job! So if he earns the job in the pre seasons to 2009 , he is the starter to 2009! That makes no sence.

4. Campbell is not ready. What QB has been ready without playing time? How will he be more ready next yr? It takes 2 yrs to read defenses when you are a black QB now?

lets stop it making Campbell out like he is retard. He may be not that good. But stop making him like they are teaching him how to walk. He went undefeated in college football. I think he is smart enough.