Atheists & Agnostics.. A Question from a Theist

[ArtMonk_fav.redskin]

I have been reading (not posting in) the Atheist/Agnostic discussion thread.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143201&page=1

After reading the 35 pages posted to date, it leads me to wonder how Atheist/Agnostics would give a serious response to this question.

If there is no God, do you believe in right and wrong?

Pornography, child pornography, incest, rape, child sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality, prostitution, polygamy are some actions that are neither totally accepted nor legal in our country.

It would be my assertion that for an Atheist everything is permissible. There is no basis for anyone to say anything was wrong. Actions or behavior may be offensive to some but how could an argument be made that they are wrong?

An example:

Theist: “Is Child pornography wrong?”

Atheist: “It is illegal”

So would atheist A think that CP was wrong because they happened to live in a country where it was illegal but to atheist B it was okay because it was not illegal?

See a theist can have a line in which right and wrong meet but to an atheist there can be no line, thus all things are permissible.

This thread is not to argue about the differences that exist between religions or denominations, to me that is a totally separate issue for another thread. How does an atheist seriously resolve this issue?

[Bang]

Yes, right and wrong are simple to figure out, and it requires no God to tell the difference.

the inference that an atheist simply believes it is wrong because it is illegal is patently false.. we're not a bunch of amoral animals running around.

To believe that because we don't believe in a God then we don't have any morality is insulting.

I ask you. Why do you require God to tell you what is right from wrong? Can't yu figure it out on your own? If God never said "Thou shalt not kill" would that mean it's not wrong?

By using your playlet there, let's see how it would sound from the opposite point of view.

Atheist- "Say, Mr. Believer,, do you think child pornography is wrong, even if it was produced in a country where it's legal?"

Believer- "Gee,, Uh,, I don't know,, let me call my pastor and see what he thinks about it."

By using your logic, a believer can't possibly know right from wrong himself, because God is his moral compass.

If I thought about you the way you think about me and my so called lack of line, or morality.. then I would consider you a pedophile because in Biblical times all the marrying and begatting was being done with teenage girls. 13 was prime marrying age back then, so by the nature of their own times, they didn't think screwing a young teenager was all that bad of a thing.

This thread is sad. It infers we atheists are nothing more than savages. If that is how you truly feel, I really feel bad for you. If this is what you have been taught by your church, then perhaps you can see why we have such a problem with your religions.

Personally, if I was your neighbor, you'd love me. I'm one of the best neighbors you'd ever find, and if you never knew I was an atheist, you'd likely think I was one of the nicest people you'd find, too. (Even if you did know, you'd still find I was a very nice guy with a very strong sense of right and wrong and fair play. Your kids would be safe and welcome to play here with my son. In this house, I've raised kids for nearly 20 years. I have a grown son, too, now i have a 9 year old. For 20 years my yard has been the neighborhood football field, wrestling mat, play yard, etc. At least three times a week or so I can be found outside for an hour or so throwing passes to the kids, playing '500'.. letting the play with my dog... basically making sure I do my part to make sure their neighborhood is a nice place to play, and a safe place to play. If they're here in my yard, I have my eye on them.)

On second thought, to think that I, or others like me, would think Child Porn is ok because we don't believe in God is not so much an insult towards me, because I know better. It's more of a damnation of yourself, and the razor thin view of the world you must have.

it is my deepest hope that these were just questions for debate, and not a reflection of what you truly think.

~Bang

[chomerics]

I have been reading (not posting in) the Atheist/Agnostic discussion thread.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143201&page=1

After reading the 35 pages posted to date, it leads me to wonder how Atheist/Agnostics would give a serious response to this question.

If there is no God, do you believe in right and wrong?

Pornography, child pornography, incest, rape, child sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality, prostitution, polygamy are some actions that are neither totally accepted nor legal in our country.

It would be my assertion that for an Atheist everything is permissible. There is no basis for anyone to say anything was wrong. Actions or behavior may be offensive to some but how could an argument be made that they are wrong?

An example:

Theist: “Is Child pornography wrong?”

Atheist: “It is illegal”

So would atheist A think that CP was wrong because they happened to live in a country where it was illegal but to atheist B it was okay because it was not illegal?

See a theist can have a line in which right and wrong meet but to an atheist there can be no line, thus all things are permissible.

This thread is not to argue about the differences that exist between religions or denominations, to me that is a totally separate issue for another thread. How does an atheist seriously resolve this issue?

This is where philosophy comes into play, and make no bones about it, books such as the bible, the Torah and Koran are all philosophical books masquarading as religion. Each one emphasizes the "golden rule", which is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

There is an inate abliltiy of humans to relate to other humans, it is seen in emotions such as empathy, kindness, and understanding or ability to "put yourself in their shoes". It is unique to humans as a species, and it is because of the development of one part of the brain (I can't remember which part, but it is where right, wrong, reason and our personality are assimilated, pre-frontal cortex possibly?)

Because we have this part of our brain, and we have the ability to reason, religion is not needed for discerning right and wrong. If you look at the brains of sereal killers, people in society who lack a conscious, you can see that there is a correlation between an inability to process information in this part of their brain, there have been quite a few studies on the topic, and many a thesis written on it.

Here is a good link I found with a quick google search.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Solano.html

As for religion, I think the opposite holds true sometimes. Because religious people believe in an inanimate object, and believe whole heartedly, they can supress the conscious part of their brain by convincing themselves they are "morally right" because the bible says so. For example, the religious leaders in this country have already called for an assasination attempt on a world leader, and the death of an American town for not voting the way they want. Now, is this christian behavior, or are they eliminating the moral portion of their brain because they place morality in a book?

Great topic by the way, there are so many paths this can take

[chomerics]

it is my deepest hope that these were just questions for debate, and not a reflection of what you truly think.

~Bang

I'm pretty sure that he was just asking the question, and not what he thinks. . . but then again, I've seen quite a few people who do exactly what you said, and it is truly a travesty to society that these people ignore the reason part of their brain and place their morality in some book written 1600 years ago.

[HOF44]

I believe there is not necesarily a correlation between religious beliefs and moral behaviour. There are morally corrupt religious people ie(the catholic preist pedaphilia fiasco) and very moral religious people. I believe the same holds true for athiest or agnostic. You'll find very nice moral individuals and morally bankrupt ones.

[Bang]

It would be my assertion that for an Atheist everything is permissible. There is no basis for anyone to say anything was wrong. Actions or behavior may be offensive to some but how could an argument be made that they are wrong

I would hope so too, except for this part. Maybe if ArtMonk here could clarify for us?

~Bang

[rincewind]

Wow, you guys give really long answer to a question that could be answered in one simple sentence.

You do not need to believe in God to have morals, its called society.

[ArtMonk_fav.redskin]

Yes, right and wrong are simple to figure out, and it requires no God to tell the difference.

~Bang

BANG I do not mean to infer that atheists are immoral people, you say that right and wrong is simple to figure out, and I take it that you do not deny that something like child pornagraphy is disgusting. But to some it is not, you may have that line between a right and wrong but who are you to draw that line? Based on what? Maybe some that are disgusted with CP have no problem with adult porno... I hope you undetrstand my point.

I have read thru the atheist thread mentioned before and so many times a atheist said man is no different than animals, sure mankind has more of a self awareness but no inherent higher value or purpose.

If that is true we need to consider where that untimately leads us.

[Prosperity]

I have been reading (not posting in) the Atheist/Agnostic discussion thread.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143201&page=1

After reading the 35 pages posted to date, it leads me to wonder how Atheist/Agnostics would give a serious response to this question.

If there is no God, do you believe in right and wrong?

Pornography, child pornography, incest, rape, child sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality, prostitution, polygamy are some actions that are neither totally accepted nor legal in our country.

It would be my assertion that for an Atheist everything is permissible. There is no basis for anyone to say anything was wrong. Actions or behavior may be offensive to some but how could an argument be made that they are wrong?

An example:

Theist: “Is Child pornography wrong?”

Atheist: “It is illegal”

So would atheist A think that CP was wrong because they happened to live in a country where it was illegal but to atheist B it was okay because it was not illegal?

See a theist can have a line in which right and wrong meet but to an atheist there can be no line, thus all things are permissible.

This thread is not to argue about the differences that exist between religions or denominations, to me that is a totally separate issue for another thread. How does an atheist seriously resolve this issue?

I have a question for you, why does an existance of God have any bearing on right and wrong? Right and wrong have to be more than some really powerful guy telling people what to do. Do you do good things because God told you to do them or do you them because it makes you feel better?

The existance of God and morality are two completely different subjects.

For all we know morality has a biological basis. For example animals that had empathy to their own kind could survive better as a species.

[ArtMonk_fav.redskin]

I have a question for you, why does an existance of God have any bearing on right and wrong? Right and wrong have to be more than some really powerful guy telling people what to do. Do you do good things because God told you to do them or do you them because it makes you feel better?

The existance of God and morality are two completely different subjects.

For all we know morality has a biological basis. For example animals that had empathy to their own kind could survive better as a species.

Like I said before Liberty the differences between various religions is a separate issue. Each religion puts a direction on a moral compass, but ulimately gives a direction. We can disagree about the differences but my point for this thread was to ask an atheist what determines right and wrong and is it relative to culture?

Chicken=pig=man

thus canabalism is okay, not accepted by our cutlure but nothing inherantly wrong with it...

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

(For 20 years my yard has been the neighborhood football field, wrestling mat, play yard, etc. At least three times a week or so I can be found outside for an hour or so throwing passes to the kids, playing '500'.. letting the play with my dog... basically making sure I do my part to make sure their neighborhood is a nice place to play, and a safe place to play. If they're here in my yard, I have my eye on them.)

~Bang

C'mon Bang, tell the truth. We all know the reason you let the kids play football, and wrestling in the yard. It was so you could make your Athiest child porn flicks!

In all seriousness though, I don't see how you (Monk.fav) think since someone doesn't believe in God they're amoral. My dog knows when he did something wrong, does that make him Christian? If we're making baseless assumptions, and attacks on what others believe I would say that Christians are weak minded, simpletons who can't make decisions or their own without some overseer telling them what they should think is right and wrong. Am I correct?

[HOF44]

Each religion puts a direction on a moral compass, but ulimately gives a direction. We can disagree about the differences but my point for this thread was to ask an atheist what determines right and wrong and is it relative to culture?

The bold section above is what is so scary about religion. Through history religions have at times set a compass path to repression and tyranny. Then the "mindless drones" follow the decrees of the church even if the are amoral. Many have suffered and died because of this.

[ArtMonk_fav.redskin]

In all seriousness though, I don't see how you (Monk.fav) think since someone doesn't believe in God they're amoral. My dog knows when he did something wrong, does that make him Christian? If we're making baseless assumptions, and attacks on what others believe I would say that Christians are weak minded, simpletons who can't make decisions or their own without some overseer telling them what they should think is right and wrong. Am I correct?

Another post which does not answer my question. What determines your right and wrong and is it relative?

[ArtMonk_fav.redskin]

The bold section above is what is so scary about religion. Through history religions have at times set a compass path to repression and tyranny. Then the "mindless drones" follow the decrees of the church even if the are amoral. Many have suffered and died because of this.

Nice. You addressed part of my post that I stated I did not want to get sidetracked by but you did not address the second part of the post..

what determines right and wrong and is it relative to culture?

[HOF44]

Nice. You addressed part of my post that I stated I did not want to get sidetracked by but you did not address the second part of the post..

Ok to the second part. As someone posted above humans have the ability to show emapthy. You can put yourself in anothers shoes. If you would not want to have "x" done to you, you don't do it to anyone else.

You know if you would consider "x" nice and you do that because you know it would please others.

Its really not complicated.

Why do you feel the need to be told whats right and wrong?

[CrabR]

How does an atheist seriously resolve this issue?

same way a chiristian that can worship a god that ordains incest, rape, child sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality, prostitution, polygamy, murder, slavery and other 'bad' actions

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

Wow, you guys give really long answer to a question that could be answered in one simple sentence.

You do not need to believe in God to have morals, its called society.

Ok to the second part. As someone posted above humans have the ability to show emapthy. You can put yourself in anothers shoes. If you would not want to have "x" done to you, you don't do it to anyone else.

You know if you would consider "x" nice and you do that because you know it would please others.

Its really not complicated.

Why do you feel the need to be told whats right and wrong?

Another post which does not answer my question. What determines your right and wrong and is it relative?

I think that both responses above would sum up my opinion on it. If you can have empathy towards others you know what's right and wrong. It's not a question of did God tell you to, or not to.

[webnarc]

I have been reading (not posting in) the Atheist/Agnostic discussion thread.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143201&page=1

After reading the 35 pages posted to date, it leads me to wonder how Atheist/Agnostics would give a serious response to this question.

If there is no God, do you believe in right and wrong?

Pornography, child pornography, incest, rape, child sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality, prostitution, polygamy are some actions that are neither totally accepted nor legal in our country.

It would be my assertion that for an Atheist everything is permissible. There is no basis for anyone to say anything was wrong. Actions or behavior may be offensive to some but how could an argument be made that they are wrong?

An example:

Theist: “Is Child pornography wrong?”

Atheist: “It is illegal”

So would atheist A think that CP was wrong because they happened to live in a country where it was illegal but to atheist B it was okay because it was not illegal?

See a theist can have a line in which right and wrong meet but to an atheist there can be no line, thus all things are permissible.

This thread is not to argue about the differences that exist between religions or denominations, to me that is a totally separate issue for another thread. How does an atheist seriously resolve this issue?

NOTE: you offended me with your post

Since there is no objective reality there is no right and wrong.

Atheists make the decision to not do bad because they don't like the feeling they get after doing certain things, or the thought of what they may feel as a result of completing the act.

Religious people, I've been told and read, do things because they fear their the wrath of their God. Their motivation is not intrinsic, it is external. We'll never know were these people personally stand on any issue given that they are told how to behave.

Let's expand your child porn example shall we. Let remove the camera and focus on the behaviour, the raping of children, and apply it to the action of a religious group, say catholic priests. (Let me guess, you don't like where this is going?) Why does a catholic God want little boys raped?

Stop reading here because, as I said, you have offended me and I'm going to tell you what I think about your beliefs system.

You need to think for a change and stop the unconditional belief that some mythical being will make everything all right for you when you die because you have listened to everything some blow hard priest tells you to.

Your post sickens me in its righteousness and divisive invective. Posts like yours are power for the course for people like YOU. You know nothing about Atheist but speak in judging terms. Lost on you is the irony that you have NO morality because you are told how you are to feel about things.

I give it up to the people who understand that religion is a choice and who choose purity for their own reasons and not because some man of cloth tells them how to think. Take responsibility for your own actions / non-actions instead of doing what you are doing.

"How does an atheist seriously resolve this issue?"

It isn't an issue to an atheist so no resolution is required. I don't rape, steal, cheat, murder or watch child porn because I don't want to. And that, ArtMonk_fav.redskin, is why my friends like and trust me, because I don't do the activities you speak of BECAUSE of my own reason, and not because God will send me to hell with no virgins for participating in the activity.

Oh yeah, your choice of fonts sucked too .

[DeanCollins]

BANG I do not mean to infer that atheists are immoral people, you say that right and wrong is simple to figure out, and I take it that you do not deny that something like child pornagraphy is disgusting. But to some it is not, you may have that line between a right and wrong but who are you to draw that line? Based on what? Maybe some that are disgusted with CP have no problem with adult porno... I hope you undetrstand my point.

I have read thru the atheist thread mentioned before and so many times a atheist said man is no different than animals, sure mankind has more of a self awareness but no inherent higher value or purpose.

If that is true we need to consider where that untimately leads us.

I think they let you off easy on this pointed insidious question of yours. It lays wide open, the mentality of fundamentalist Christians, that they are so moral and everyone else isn't. It's certainly due to the brain washing that

you folks endure.

What's particularly disgusting are the FC's that play high and mighty, "sin"

all week long (engage in child pornography if you will) go to church on sunday and believe they wipe the slate clean.

Along with this attitde, I've witnessed very rude and unsociable behavior from these same people toward the "un-saved" undoubtably with the notion

that those people are "damned" anyway so what's the harm.

suggestion, start thinking for yourself. Anyone who accepts only one source for wisdom is a fool

[Winslowalrob]

An atheist has a moral compass. It just has no divine inspiration. You, in a roundabout way, implied that Atheists are by definition immoral. Then you assert that a human animal is a terrible thing. You put a lot of stuff in your original message that will allow for a larger discussion of your true intentions and meanings. A lot of people have let you off easy.

[RabidFan]

Wasn't slavery a common and supported practice in the bible yet somehow in the growth of our society it was and is deemed WRONG and thus ousted? So with God's word there would still be injustices that as a society we wouldn't have adapted and changed for the betterment of man. Cumon now.

[ArtMonk_fav.redskin]

An atheist has a moral compass. It just has no divine inspiration. You, in a roundabout way, implied that Atheists are by definition immoral. Then you assert that a human animal is a terrible thing. You put a lot of stuff in your original message that will allow for a larger discussion of your true intentions and meanings. A lot of people have let you off easy.

I believe that atheists have a moral compass... My whole point after reading the atheist/agnostic thread, the point was made over and over that religious beliefs were the result of the culture you grew up in and that anyone that believed in a higher being was a "drone".

I also agree that most people have a moral compass based on those religious beliefs.

The point I am trying to make is that even those that do not believe in a higher being also have a line of right and wrong. People can get mad at me all they want but it is true, my whole point was to hear from an atheist on what is it based on and is it relative?

[Cdowwe]

Good thread. I figured the responses would be as they are. Webnarc.... :cry:

[webnarc]

Good thread. I figured the responses would be as they are. Webnarc.... :cry:

You gotta love narc

[webnarc]

The point I am trying to make is that even those that do not believe in a higher being also have a line of right and wrong. People can get mad at me all they want but it is true, my whole point was to hear from an atheist on what is it based on and is it relative?

Why didn't you just ask you question directly instead of loading your initially post with, well, the things that offended me and others mention that you were let off easy on?

Given that this was your first thread, did you not know how it would come across?