What is w/all the injury excuses for Joe Gibbs???

[praise_gibbs]

You my friend have been OWNED by Henry... thank you for playing!

[bbuzz1962]

How is the colonostopy going there may friend?? Any polyps, tumors, ingrown hairs?? I am over these threads that disrespect a man who is in the hall of fame for being one of the best NFL coaches in history. Look at where this team is now versus 2 years ago. This man has single handedly changed the structure, and character of a losing, worthless team who couldn't get into the playoffs. Injuries were a major factor in the outcome of this years season. You need to get a clue. To do as well as this team did this year, without the people lost to injury is a testimony to the coaches ability to overcome adversity, and still win. Why don't you refresh your memory on the injuries, and then come back an apologize for this stupid, moronic statement.

[painfulyetloyal]

The two most shared opinions on this site, in ref. to why we lost in the playoffs, are JG's playcalling and injuries. Perhaps one could say that the playcaliing was limited because of the injuries and so on....but its a bunch of bs.

If any coach of the Skins had the right to complain, its G.Williams. How about that gem in Tampa w/no Carlos Rodgers and ST after his spitting incident. Not to mention RW breaking his arm, C.Griffin has been hobbling around for weeks, as has S.Springs, who couldnt go this last game. Guess what, the D was plenty good enough last week too.

The point is great coaches find a way to win despite injuries like GW did. Think of BB in NE in past years. Joe Gibbs is lacking in his gameplan because there is no plan B in case of an injury. For that matter, there is no plan B if he cant run the ball or if he gets down by two scores.

Its absurd that JG cant move the ball w/what he had. Samuels, Jansen, Raubach, and a solid Dockery is an O line most teams would love to have. Yes, Ray Brown was a weak link and limited sweeps and what not..but he's not a bum. He's been in the NFL 20 years and can still protect well. JG was at fault for exposing RB like he did.

Not to mention his O had Clinton Portis, Santana, Cooley, and a healty Ramsey if MB was hurt or struggling. Ppl here are acting like we have a Chicago Bear type of O and one injury can ruin the season.

Also, this site is saying the prob is depth. Well, the prob. w/JG is his way to win requires a top 5 type of D, which means BIG $ on that side. Then on O, he needs a top power running attack. Hence, big ticket players like Samuels, Jansen, Raubach, and Thomas. Throw in Clinton's huge deal and Santana to stretch the field...and dont forget his need for a veteran QB like MB that costs money. Bottom line is in the salary cap era, it wont get much better than this.

We proved(the D and the talent we have on O)that this squad could have gone to the Super Bowl as is. Every JG backer has said that when he has all the tools next year he's going to have a great O..but what happens if someone gets injured(Santana, Clinton, OL guy,ect.)?..is the season a lost cause again?..

In the NFL these days(not like the unbalanced NFL of JG's first stint), you are not going to have a far superior team than other playoff teams. Injuries suck and cause probs. but you have to prepare and work through them. JG blew that game..no ifs, ands, or buts...

and the funniest thing I have read is how losing T.Jacobs really caused probs in the playcaliing..I hate to even waste my finger's time debating this. TJ takes no attention off SM or Cooley and sure as heck cant get open by himself

Its very simple, we had some depth on defense and none on offense. Ray Brown did a good enough job taking over for Thomas but we had NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY to take over for Patten or Thrash, who were not that productive to begin with.

[Henry]

Stats are misleading. Simms was a bum in the beg. when he was thrown to the wolves and the O was lost. They started to pick it up and any O w/the rookie of the year ay RB and JG at WR w/a good line is not a push over. Do you remember game #1?..I think GW made a pretty nice adjust.

Indeed. Simms, with all of ten starts under his belt and starting his first playoff game, and Williams, a rookie, on one side of the ball, a defense chock full of SB winning all-pros on the other. Stats don't take into account the relevancy of such factors, but we should know them and not ignore their significance.

The nice adjust GW made was named Cornelius Griffin and Joe Salavea. Amazing how much better that squad plays when those two suit up and are playing on two good wheels. Unless you like to pretend injuries don't matter to guys like Williams ...

Fact is, before the game everyone and his uncle was predicting a low-scoring one-score game and yet when it happens, some people are stunned that our offense wasn't productive.

Do you want the guy to win the SB every year?..come on..in today's NFL it wont happen.

I see the irony of this statement has completely escaped you. I agree. We should not expect even a three-time SB-winning coach to win it every year. Excellent point.

I'll give you another shot at it. Let's see if you can avoid making my point for me again:

Furthermore, even w/an O like Indy, just because your O is built to be able to come back, it might not on any certain game. The ? is, is it capable?..I think everyone around the NFL(media and coaches)would say JG's O is not.

Popy****. The Pats had a game against a very beatable team with a two-time superbowl MVP under center and Belicheck STILL couldn't get it done. That's a travesty of playcalling and personell gaffes. Clearly his assistants, who have all departed for other jobs, were the reason for that team's success. Kraft should have fired Belicheck and promoted Lovie Smith. I mean, have you SEEN Chicago's defense? Could you imagine what he could accomplish with that defense AND Tom Brady? NEw England totally blew that call ...

This nonsense of a HUGE turn around is bs. 6-10 last year w/the best D in the NFL and an O equally talented to this year(no SM but at least RG at 50/50 was better than our 10/90 guys this year)was a travesty. That team should have been 10-6 for fun, more like 13-3 if the O reached its potential w/how our D played.

Ah. I see I set my sights too low for you. Apparently Gibbs, after a twelve year hiatus, should have taken a 5-11 team that hadn't had a winning season in five years and made the playoffs, if not the Superbowl ... immediately.

That's even MORE on you, still not on Gibbs.

Please dont use the Eagles as an example unless we literally lost Mark Brunell and Patrick Ramsey, Clinton, Santana, Thomas or Samuels, Springs, ect. all for the year. There is no stretch in the truth of that.

The Eagles are an example of a season ruined due to injuries. The Redskins are not. That's all I was saying.

Please, in today's NFL a guy like Antonio P. last year has a break out year and gets a mega contract. Even if they arent a free agent, players often hold out for a new contract if they are any sort of a bargain price. Being a great D, ppl will get noticed even if they are only a product of the system. Take out CG on our D line and tell me about other D Cords. that could use those guys as one of the most dominat run stoppers like last year. This year they did well too.

Ah, I see you DO agree with me about Griffin then. I see you've decided that even the immortal Gregg Williams needs players to be successful. So does Gibbs. There you go.

I already explained last year's 6-10 but the statement that we could have beat Carolina next week and Seattle that game is merely my opinion but I do not feel its far fetched.

Oh, I think we COULD have done it. I just don't think we SHOULD have. That's what you are saying. And that I do think is far fetched. Expectations unreasonably built upon the previous success of Gibbs. My opinion.

[ThomasRoane]

Defense has always been and always be easier to master. They spend most of the game reacting to what the Offense is doing. Offense has to scheme to make the defense think they're seeing play x when really play y was called.

[WinSkins]

So...are you suggesting that Dan Snyder fire JG and get a coach who calls better plays?

All you need to do is read the offseason surgery schedule and realize that this team went into the playoffs battered and weary after having to win every doggone game in a tough schedule to qualify.

This was partially due to the three game losing streak (the losses to Raiders and Chargers hurt the most) and you can say that they made their own bed there.

But they also had a tough schedule and the bye week coming in week three certainly didn't help.

Earlier post showing play call listing for the game effectively addressed your criticism in that area.

I think we ran out of healthy, effective guys upfront on the O-line and we still almost pulled it out. Don't like losing a playoff game but it sure beats not getting there at all.

At beginning of 2005 if you would have said we'd finish at 11 - 7 after a 6-10 season, I'd have said you're crazy but count me in!

JG will fix it, those of us who've been around for a long time know it's only a question of time and people...he'll get it done. That's based on past performance...not just promises.

[dmauro1]

So...are you suggesting that Dan Snyder fire JG and get a coach who calls better plays?

All you need to do is read the offseason surgery schedule and realize that this team went into the playoffs battered and weary after having to win every doggone game in a tough schedule to qualify.

This was partially due to the three game losing streak (the losses to Raiders and Chargers hurt the most) and you can say that they made their own bed there.

But they also had a tough schedule and the bye week coming in week three certainly didn't help.

Earlier post showing play call listing for the game effectively addressed your criticism in that area.

I think we ran out of healthy, effective guys upfront on the O-line and we still almost pulled it out. Don't like losing a playoff game but it sure beats not getting there at all.

At beginning of 2005 if you would have said we'd finish at 11 - 7 after a 6-10 season, I'd have said you're crazy but count me in!

JG will fix it, those of us who've been around for a long time know it's only a question of time and people...he'll get it done. That's based on past performance...not just promises.

JG has built a Super Bowl roster when you factor in G.Williams(who JG gets a ton of credit for getting here), the talent on O, and the whole attitude of the team. I just think JG will not be able to draw up the X's&O's to take us to the next level. The step would be to make him a hands on executive like the NBA's Bird(Ind), Thomas(NY), and Riley(before he came back). He knows what it takes to win but the actual game in itself is just too diff. than his time.

[WinSkins]

Not ready to agree with you quite yet...perhaps after he's finished up his five year contract and won another Super Bowl I will agree.

[carlsbadd]

Funny I don't recall seeing any player named Gibbs in pads against the Seahawks. Yet he lost the game...oh please...... stop the madness.....

[dmauro1]

Sigh. We had 13 drives in that game. You know how many started with a running play?

Three.

Our first five drives were three-and-outs. They went:

pass run pass

run run pass

pass run pass

run run pass

run pass pass

After that every single drive until the end of the game opened with a pass play. We passed on first down thirteen times and ran on first down seven times. I don't know what game you were watching, but we were not over-committing to the run in that game.

EDIT: And let me also state that while I think Ramsey is a decent QB and he would most likely have done fine for us this year, he is historically terrible in bad weather. I think throwing him into that game on that rainy day with our running game sputtering would have been not only unfair to Ramsey, but a disaster for the team.

To say "pass" can be misleading when talking about JG. I envision at least some of those passes should have been some attempt to stretch the field in order to say it was a balanced attack. You cant judge between an ultra conservative O and a more aggressive one just by counting runs and passes.

[skinsguy29]

To say "pass" can be misleading when talking about JG. I envision at least some of those passes should have been some attempt to stretch the field in order to say it was a balanced attack. You cant judge between an ultra conservative O and a more aggressive one just by counting runs and passes.

You have to be a NY Giants fan! There is no sane Redskins fan on this planet that doesn't like Joe Gibbs! Maybe you should go back and watch every game of this season sober. I'd just bet you'd have a different opinion. :gaintsuck

[dmauro1]

The nice adjust GW made was named Cornelius Griffin and Joe Salavea. Amazing how much better that squad plays when those two suit up and are playing on two good wheels. Unless you like to pretend injuries don't matter to guys like Williams ...

My reply: Before GW I would have said Joe who?..oh! CG was also just another player w/talent who was going backwards after his rookie year..who GW turned in to one of the best in the NFL

Fact is, before the game everyone and his uncle was predicting a low-scoring one-score game and yet when it happens, some people are stunned that our offense wasn't productive.

My reply: I agree. TB was the #1 D but we have an O that includes a ton of Pro Bowl calibur ability(or just below)and factoring in playoff atmosphere, maybe 250 yds would be exceptable..but an all time record for playoff futility?..we dont have the Bears O in Wash. I know we were up but you saw what kind of gameplan that was when the guy almost got the tying TD. It would have been good to get some yds to keep our D off the field and give us a better chance to win.

I see the irony of this statement has completely escaped you. I agree. We should not expect even a three-time SB-winning coach to win it every year. Excellent point.

I'll give you another shot at it. Let's see if you can avoid making my point for me again

My reply: I did walk in to that one. I do think JG was a good to great coach in his day but some legit questions remain. Today's NFL is a whole diff. game w/the salary cap. Think SF coaches after Bill Walsh during their dynasty. The monster records like GS and SM compiled and look what happened when they had a real coaching challenge. No knock of JG but I give most of the glory to JCK. I guess its one of those never ending time era debates but I think BB goes in to a category of his own for winning 3x in the era of a fully balanced NFL.

Popy****. The Pats had a game against a very beatable team with a two-time superbowl MVP under center and Belicheck STILL couldn't get it done. That's a travesty of playcalling and personell gaffes. Clearly his assistants, who have all departed for other jobs, were the reason for that team's success. Kraft should have fired Belicheck and promoted Lovie Smith. I mean, have you SEEN Chicago's defense? Could you imagine what he could accomplish with that defense AND Tom Brady? NEw England totally blew that call ...

My reply: Denver was 13-3 and the #2 seed, the fav. in the game at a very favorous home field. NE was not a better team and the only thing that made them lose was a bad pass by their QB. One play doesnt make a gameplan bad. I would say the same about JG if Clinton fumbled in the clutch. That's why you have to play the game out even if youre up one score to give yourself a better chance to overcome it. If Lovie Smith had the talent we have on O, he would have finished 16-0 I think, I do not feel that's ignorant to say.

Ah. I see I set my sights too low for you. Apparently Gibbs, after a twelve year hiatus, should have taken a 5-11 team that hadn't had a winning season in five years and made the playoffs, if not the Superbowl ... immediately.

That's even MORE on you, still not on Gibbs.

MY reply: No Super Bowl or great coaching job could be expected, kinks need to be worked out after that kind of layoff for sure but did you watch our D play last year? What I'm saying is even if JG did average in his return and the O did SOMETHING..like finish around 20th in the NFL in O(which is pretty damn low for a team w/that much talent)we would have been 13-3. Do you disagree?..you watched all the games right?..but to finish near dead last in O w/all that talent and waste that beauty of a D was a travesty as I said.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Are we closing in on the 100 mark yet for stupid threads? Anyone keeping track of the number of serious and intelligent threads? Is their a module available which would allow us to vote on threads? How 'bout a master thread serving as index of sorts to good threads? Getting desperate...

[Henry]

My reply: Before GW I would have said Joe who?..oh! CG was also just another player w/talent who was going backwards after his rookie year..who GW turned in to one of the best in the NFL

Santana who?

My reply: I agree. TB was the #1 D but we have an O that includes a ton of Pro Bowl calibur ability(or just below)and factoring in playoff atmosphere, maybe 250 yds would be exceptable..but an all time record for playoff futility?..we dont have the Bears O in Wash. I know we were up but you saw what kind of gameplan that was when the guy almost got the tying TD. It would have been good to get some yds to keep our D off the field and give us a better chance to win.

I agree our offense stunk in that game. I never said they didn't. I'm simply addressing the notion that Williams is a superior signal-caller based on the fact that his defense played better in that game than Gibbs' offense did. Gibbs was up against a much much MUCH tougher squad that day.

My reply: I did walk in to that one. I do think JG was a good to great coach in his day but some legit questions remain. Today's NFL is a whole diff. game w/the salary cap. Think SF coaches after Bill Walsh during their dynasty. The monster records like GS and SM compiled and look what happened when they had a real coaching challenge. No knock of JG but I give most of the glory to JCK. I guess its one of those never ending time era debates but I think BB goes in to a category of his own for winning 3x in the era of a fully balanced NFL.

Fine. Find me a coach in today's NFL that has exceeded Gibbs' two-year performance. If the game has so passed Gibbs by that shouldn't be hard. Let's look at Gregg Williams, who you seem to think is superior to Gibbs in every way, for example. In his second year as Buffalo's head coach (2002), Williams had three-time pro-bowler Drew Bledsoe at QB, three-time pro-bowler Eric Moulds at WR and pro-bowler Travis Henry at RB. I think it's safe to say his team wasn't bereft of talent that year. That team went 8-8. The NEXT year, year three of the Williams regime, his team with the same skill-position players and the #2 defense in the league went 6-10. And he got fired having never even sniffed the playoffs.

You do realize that compared to Williams, Gibbs is a freaking genius of a head coach, don't you?

What about Gruden. With the #5 defense in the league and two-time pro-bowler Brad Johnson at QB he went 7-9 in 2003. 5-11 in 2004. I guess he doesn't have what it takes anymore either.

What about Mora Jr.? With Michael Freakin VICK at QB and pro-bowlers at RB and TE he just went 8-8 with the #14 offense in the league. Yet somehow that relic Gibbs got our offense to #11 this year. Will wonders never cease.

Tom Coughlin? Do I need to say anything here?

Bill Parcells? One playoff loss in three seasons? He had the #1 defense in the entire league in 2003 and couldn't win a playoff game. THIS guy's a future Hall of Famer?

I could go on, but I think ... I HOPE I've made my point here. Compared to his contemporaries, Gibbs is doing a great job ... and he's still rusty. Good heavens, man. Think about that for a moment.

Denver was 13-3 and the #2 seed, the fav. in the game at a very favorous home field. NE was not a better team and the only thing that made them lose was a bad pass by their QB. One play doesnt make a gameplan bad. I would say the same about JG if Clinton fumbled in the clutch. That's why you have to play the game out even if youre up one score to give yourself a better chance to overcome it. If Lovie Smith had the talent we have on O, he would have finished 16-0 I think, I do not feel that's ignorant to say.

And you did it again. I knew you wouldn't let me down. Seattle was 13-3 and the #1 seed, the fav. in the game at a very favorous home field. (favorous?) We were not a better team and the only thing that put the game out of reach was a missed FG and a tipped pass in the end-zone. Two plays don't make a gameplan bad.

Odd how even though New England lost by more than we did to an easier draw than we had, even though New England was coming off two home games and we were coming off two road games, even though New England has a MUCH better QB than we do, even though New England turned the ball over FIVE TIMES and we didn't turn the ball over once you give New England's coach a pass for his game plan but not our coach for ours.

No Super Bowl or great coaching job could be expected, kinks need to be worked out after that kind of layoff for sure but did you watch our D play last year? What I'm saying is even if JG did average in his return and the O did SOMETHING..like finish around 20th in the NFL in O(which is pretty damn low for a team w/that much talent)we would have been 13-3. Do you disagree?..you watched all the games right?..but to finish near dead last in O w/all that talent and waste that beauty of a D was a travesty as I said.

Well, he DID have an O that did something this year. It was 11th in yards and 13th in scoring. That's far better than 20th. And we went 10-6, so I'd say no, we'd probably have been 10-6.

So since we had a decent offense this year, did we waste our fantastic defense? Is it a waste any time a defense finishes in the top 5 and the team doesn't win the Superbowl? I hate to tell you, it happens more often than it doesn't. I think I already mentioned few recent examples in this very post.

What you are expecting of Gibbs is more than any coach in this league can accomplish. It's too bad, because Gibbs is doing an excellent job with this team, and you can't get past your excessive expectations to see it.

[desertfox59]

JG has built a Super Bowl roster when you factor in G.Williams(who JG gets a ton of credit for getting here), the talent on O, and the whole attitude of the team. I just think JG will not be able to draw up the X's&O's to take us to the next level. The step would be to make him a hands on executive like the NBA's Bird(Ind), Thomas(NY), and Riley(before he came back). He knows what it takes to win but the actual game in itself is just too diff. than his time.

I just have to post to disspell this notion about "the game is different now."

1) since JG's first go ..... there have been relitavitly minor rules changes to the game...the field is still 120 yards...the goal posts are still ten feet high....ect.

2) Since JG's first go.... the Fundementals of Football have not changed....you still have to wrap up when you tackle...you still have to put the ball in the correct arm....you still have to maintain leverage.....you still have to be quicker to the point of contact...you still have to step with the correct foot....ect.

I thank you Henry for making my points for me (mostly) but this one I just had to point out....

[Louie 14]

The injury to R Thomas was critical for the lack of run game afterwards. However, we could still have beaten Seattle if either of 2 things had hapenned: CASH ON CHANCES, ex. C Rogers non Int. for a TD; or a QB WITH A STRONG ARM, ex.P Ramsey.

[dmauro1]

I just have to post to disspell this notion about "the game is different now."

1) since JG's first go ..... there have been relitavitly minor rules changes to the game...the field is still 120 yards...the goal posts are still ten feet high....ect.

2) Since JG's first go.... the Fundementals of Football have not changed....you still have to wrap up when you tackle...you still have to put the ball in the correct arm....you still have to maintain leverage.....you still have to be quicker to the point of contact...you still have to step with the correct foot....ect.

I thank you Henry for making my points for me (mostly) but this one I just had to point out....

2 words: Salary Cap. Thats by far #1. #2: evolution of athletes. LT was a freak in his day but now DL that weigh 300lbs can run 4.4 40s(exag)and LB are freaks of nature by rule. The glory days of the hogs plowing over ppl(on drastically weaker teams) are gone. Think of all the pure talent we have on the OL. Thomas, Jansen, Raubach, Samuels, Dockery(getting better), in this salary cap era..it cant get much better than that. In the glory years even if the opposing team knew the run was coming, they might not stop it..not today(most of the time).

[Henry]

The glory days of the hogs plowing over ppl(on drastically weaker teams) are gone. Think of all the pure talent we have on the OL. Thomas, Jansen, Raubach, Samuels, Dockery(getting better), in this salary cap era..it cant get much better than that. In the glory years even if the opposing team knew the run was coming, they might not stop it..not today(most of the time).

For your inspection, Clinton Portis' final five games of the season, when Gibbs altered his philosophy mid-season and decided to commit to the run, and coincidentally won five straight games:

27car 136yds 2TDs

26car 105yds 1TD

23car 112yds

27car 108yds 1TD

27car 112yds 2TDs

With Thomas, Jansen, Raubach, Samuels and Dockery we do just fine. Last year we didn't have Jansen. In the playoffs we didn't have Thomas. In the Seahawks game we didn't have Thomas' backup. I submit that instead of kicking out the first coach to turn this team around since ... well, since he was the coach, perhaps getting a little more depth along the OL would provide a less drastic solution.

[dmauro1]

Santana who?

My reply: I did know that was coming. My prob is the amount of talent we have on the O line is incredible considering the cap. I feel even when mostly healty(you cant hope for 100% all year), it just doest tap in to even CLOSE the amount of talent that GW gets from the D. Brunell had a good stretch, I will give it to him but JG hasnt raised his level of play. I am not 100% positive on this, but I think a ton of talent is being wasted w/PR. The guy hasnt had a chance to develop his short game. Patten wasnt even used before his injury. Clinton is just doing what he was doing(which is great). Respond by picking GW apart like that..

I agree our offense stunk in that game. I never said they didn't. I'm simply addressing the notion that Williams is a superior signal-caller based on the fact that his defense played better in that game than Gibbs' offense did. Gibbs was up against a much much MUCH tougher squad that day.

My reply: True but I wasnt trying to knock 1 game. Even Indy gets shut down every so often. Im talking about the O not doing their part in St.L(not terrible but we needed the D to do xta), AZ, Philly, Tampa, and Seattle. The last 3 being w/the season on the line. Failures in Philly and TB should have propmted adjustments.

Fine. Find me a coach in today's NFL that has exceeded Gibbs' two-year performance. If the game has so passed Gibbs by that shouldn't be hard. Let's look at Gregg Williams, who you seem to think is superior to Gibbs in every way.

You do realize that compared to Williams, Gibbs is a freaking genius of a head coach, don't you?

My reply: I am objective in my views. GW underperformed in Buffalo w/the O he had, hence the bad record. His D overacheived tho. The fact that he states this and says he would give up the O like JG does w/the D is why I think he will succeed like Marvin Lewis is right now(who knows the outcome of the yr if Palmer doesnt get hurt). Again, todays game is so diff w/the cap. You cant keep a dynasty like the 70's Pitt team, 80's SF, 80's-early 90's Skins. Often times a coach like Martz will find themselves w/a SB team one year and an also ran kind of squad the next. Because of this, you cant compare coaching eras. If MM got to keep his same squad for a good period of time, he might have won 3 Bowls, thats fair to say I believe, would that make him a legend?

And you did it again. I knew you wouldn't let me down. Seattle was 13-3 and the #1 seed, the fav. in the game at a very favorous home field. (favorous?) We were not a better team and the only thing that put the game out of reach was a missed FG and a tipped pass in the end-zone. Two plays don't make a gameplan bad.

Odd how even though New England lost by more than we did to an easier draw than we had, even though New England was coming off two home games and we were coming off two road games, even though New England has a MUCH better QB than we do, even though New England turned the ball over FIVE TIMES and we didn't turn the ball over once you give New England's coach a pass for his game plan but not our coach for ours.

My reply: 1 GAME!!..JG was on the heels of giant O failure in 2 straight do or die weeks(Philly and TB). Any other "great" hc would have make some major tweaks.

Well, he DID have an O that did something this year. It was 11th in yards and 13th in scoring. That's far better than 20th. And we went 10-6, so I'd say no, we'd probably have been 10-6.

My reply: No way. The D was far superior last year. The fact that they finished #3(not by much)when they spent so much time on the field is incredible. Smoot changed everything because WH really put a thorn in GW's side, if you blitz, WH would be in man coverage where he was often torched. AP was the real deal(thank GW for that)and missing him was huge. I stand by 13-3.

[WinSkins]

For your inspection, Clinton Portis' final five games of the season, when Gibbs altered his philosophy mid-season and decided to commit to the run, and coincidentally won five straight games:

27car 136yds 2TDs

26car 105yds 1TD

23car 112yds

27car 108yds 1TD

27car 112yds 2TDs

With Thomas, Jansen, Raubach, Samuels and Dockery we do just fine. Last year we didn't have Jansen. In the playoffs we didn't have Thomas. In the Seahawks game we didn't have Thomas' backup. I submit that instead of kicking out the first coach to turn this team around since ... well, since he was the coach, perhaps getting a little more depth along the OL would provide a less drastic solution.

Don't see how anyone can argue with these facts or the conclusion!

[bulldog]

for the uninitiated, the clear difference is that an injury to your starting quarterback, running back or other skilled players on offense reduces their effectiveness to a greater degree than perhaps the same injury would to a DT or LB.

if a quarterback can't set his feet and step up into this throws then you are at risk for interceptions and balls thrown high, which is what happened to Brunell in Tampa and Seattle.

if a running back has shoulder injuries and is a physical runner like Portis, his effectiveness over 4 quarters comes into question and you tend to use him as much as a decoy as a staple of your offense, again which is something the Redskins did in the playoffs.

I don't think there is another city in the NFL (except perhaps Indy) where the ability of a team to make the playoffs and the divisional round was as criticized as it has been here by some sunshine Redskins fans.

With Indy, it is understandable. Not only did they win their first 13 games and gain homefield advantage, but were playing their first playoff game in 2006. The expectations for the team both inside and out were very high, as high as they were for the 1983 Redskins entering the postseason.

Here, this team was picked by many to be anywhere from 4-12 to 8-8. Instead the team went 10-6 and won a playoff game on the road (home teams win almost 70% of postseason contests). What were the realistic expectations for this team at 5-6 or even at 10-6? That the Skins were headed toward a Super Bowl victory?

I didn't expect the Redskins to win the Super Bowl at 10-6. One always hopes for the miracle case, but does not expect it. Not that many teams in NFL history have gone on to win the Super Bowl with only 10 wins and as a wildcard. There is a reason for that.

When I recall the 2005 season in future years I will remember the 5 wins to make the postseason, the 35-7 win over Dallas and the 35-20 win that drove Giants fans so crazy at the time. I will also recall the playoff win in Tampa, ugly as it was, that even the score from 1999 when the Skins botched that potential game-winning FG.

What I will NOT recall is blaming Joe Gibbs for Mark Brunell or Clinton Portis being at less than 100% for Seattle. Or realizing that a team that had been on the edge for almost 2 months in a tense playoff atmosphere finally caved in to the injuries and lack of time to rest and heal.

I am glad in a way this board did not exist in 1983 when the Redskins lost to the Raiders in the Super Bowl.

It was bad enough having to deal with the spectre of that game for 4 long years until the chance for redemption in San Diego.

But to deal with recriminating Redskins fans that would have called for Joe Gibbs to be fired and for the Redskins offense to be dismantled woud have been too much to take.

[kingfish50]

Some people are just never satisfied. You play with what you have. Upgrades will happen in the off season and this team will be much better. It takes time to build a team. With the salary cap and free agency, you can't do it all in one or two years and as screwed up as this team was when Joe Gibbs got here, I'd say he damn near performed a miricale getting us into the playoffs.

Do you honestly think that somebody could have done a better job? Maybe they should have hired you. You seem to be so insightful and retain so much knowledge about this team. Hell, it's a wonder that we even won one game without your input.

[Henry]

My reply: I did know that was coming. My prob is the amount of talent we have on the O line is incredible considering the cap. I feel even when mostly healty(you cant hope for 100% all year), it just doest tap in to even CLOSE the amount of talent that GW gets from the D. Brunell had a good stretch, I will give it to him but JG hasnt raised his level of play.

Brunell's passer rating this year was his highest as a full-time starter in seven years, and the third highest of his 12 year career. He threw more TDs this year than he ever has, ever, in any previous year of his career. The only season he threw more completions over 40 yards than he has this year was 1996. He took fewer sacks this year than he's ever taken as a full time starter, ever. All season long 'experts' right and left were openly wondering where the heck this new and improved Brunell had come from. I'd say his level of play had raised considerably.

I am not 100% positive on this, but I think a ton of talent is being wasted w/PR. The guy hasnt had a chance to develop his short game. Patten wasnt even used before his injury. Clinton is just doing what he was doing(which is great). Respond by picking GW apart like that..

I'm sure there are a few Lavar Arrington fans that would love to pick GW apart, and perhaps a few that thought Walt Harris suddenly became a revolving door this year might too, but I don't see chinks in the armor as the entirety of a coach's resume. I see that as a coach knowing more than I, and making decisions that benefit the overall team as opposed to the short-sighted desires of player-fans.

My reply: True but I wasnt trying to knock 1 game. Even Indy gets shut down every so often. Im talking about the O not doing their part in St.L(not terrible but we needed the D to do xta), AZ, Philly, Tampa, and Seattle. The last 3 being w/the season on the line. Failures in Philly and TB should have propmted adjustments.

You might want to take a look at the rushing stats I put up previously. You are examining games that were won during a six game winning streak in which we rushed for 100 yards or more five times and deeming them offensive failures. That's nuts, dude.

... The Eagle game? the Eagles were moving the ball on us at will in the first half. The Redskins scored on drives of 75, 70 and 72 yards in that game, while the defense gave up drives of 62 and 71. Sure, the defense picked up its game in the second half, but make no mistake, the offense kept the team afloat until then.

And should I demand GW's head for that? Should I pick out that one half of a game and hold it up as proof that he can't cut it in this league? Of course not. Over the course of the season he did an excellent job. Forest vs. Trees. Forest wins every time.

My reply: I am objective in my views. GW underperformed in Buffalo w/the O he had, hence the bad record. His D overacheived tho. The fact that he states this and says he would give up the O like JG does w/the D is why I think he will succeed like Marvin Lewis is right now(who knows the outcome of the yr if Palmer doesnt get hurt). Again, todays game is so diff w/the cap. You cant keep a dynasty like the 70's Pitt team, 80's SF, 80's-early 90's Skins. Often times a coach like Martz will find themselves w/a SB team one year and an also ran kind of squad the next. Because of this, you cant compare coaching eras. If MM got to keep his same squad for a good period of time, he might have won 3 Bowls, thats fair to say I believe, would that make him a legend?

Don't give me the injury excuse , Lewis lost his first playoff game. And this is his THIRD year as a head coach. If he's such a genius compared to Gibbs, why did he go 8-8 in HIS second year and completely miss the playoffs? Maybe Gibbs is actually doing a BETTER job than Lewis. The second year returns seem to bear that out.

And I reallly really hope you aren't implying that Gibbs kept the same squad together during the 80s and 90s. From 82-91 there were six starters that played in all three SBs. Six. Are you telling me he'll be unable to keep six starters on his team this time around?

My reply: 1 GAME!!..JG was on the heels of giant O failure in 2 straight do or die weeks(Philly and TB). Any other "great" hc would have make some major tweaks.

Again here we go: 1 game! JG had just won SIX STRAIGHT, four of them on the road. And you are complaining about style points in one of them.

My reply: No way. The D was far superior last year. The fact that they finished #3(not by much)when they spent so much time on the field is incredible. Smoot changed everything because WH really put a thorn in GW's side, if you blitz, WH would be in man coverage where he was often torched. AP was the real deal(thank GW for that)and missing him was huge. I stand by 13-3.

Read what you're writing. You think Gibbs should have come in and gone 13-3 immediately, and then won a Superbowl this year. Find me a coach, ANY coach of any era in any sport, who came in and immediately put together back-to-back seasons of that calibre. If you can find more than, say, five, then I agree. Kick Gibbs to the curb. If you can't, perhaps you've set your expectations just a tad bit too high.

[Peregrine]

Um we didnt prove we could go to the superbowl... we lost...

Ok seriously, enjoy the season. Great season, one of the best 2 in the past 14 years. Yes there are issues that need to be addressed, INCLUDING Gibbs playcalling, but much like all the other adjustments he has made this year(Zoneblocking), I have faith he will make the adjustments, and be a more agresssive playcaller next year. Enjoy the season, look forward to next year :-)

[Henry]

My reply: I am objective in my views. GW underperformed in Buffalo w/the O he had, hence the bad record. His D overacheived tho. The fact that he states this and says he would give up the O like JG does w/the D is why I think he will succeed like Marvin Lewis is right now(who knows the outcome of the yr if Palmer doesnt get hurt).

Forgive me, I had to look at this again as something about it just didn't seem right with me.

dmauro1, do you really consider Lewis a success, on a level that Gibbs is not? I have to question your reasoning on this.

Lewis came to Cincinatti as a defensive genius. I'm no Cinci fan so I'll take your word that he's delegating the offense to someone else. That being a given, let's look at Cincinatti's unit rankings over the past three years:

2003:

Offense: 12th

Defense: 28th

Record: 8-8

2004:

Offense: 19th

Defense: 19th

Record: 8-8

2005:

Offense: 4th

Defense: 28th

Record: 11-5

So, Marv Lewis, a man you would hope our coach here would emulate as a success provides a FAR worse unit than his coordinator on the other side of the ball. And this is three years into his program. Why aren't you lamenting the fact that the Bengals wasted a top five offense and a darn fine job by an assistant coach this year? Where is the outrage over the fact that Lewis hasn't feilded a defense in the top half of the league after three years? Does Palmer play defense? Why did the Bengals defense, Lewis' specialty, give up 31 points at home?

Why is Lewis a 'success' where Gibbs is a failure?

Gibbs' offense was 11th this year. A nice compliment to our #9 defense. And after two years, no less. Why are you not affording Gibbs the same benefit of doubt that you apparently give everyone else?

I find that puzzling coming from a fan of the Redskins ...