What is w/all the injury excuses for Joe Gibbs???

[dmauro1]

Brunell's passer rating this year was his highest as a full-time starter in seven years, and the third highest of his 12 year career. He threw more TDs this year than he ever has, ever, in any previous year of his career. The only season he threw more completions over 40 yards than he has this year was 1996. He took fewer sacks this year than he's ever taken as a full time starter, ever. All season long 'experts' right and left were openly wondering where the heck this new and improved Brunell had come from. I'd say his level of play had raised considerably.

My reply: I can admit I was among those that thought I shoved my foot in my mouth by saying MB was done. I can admit when I am wrong. Then he tailed off even before the injury. I am not out to bash his qb rating, as he played very solid most of the year, but JG's system is designed to be free of ints and high rate% of completions(safe passes)which help those numbers. Ints put a huge hurting on the formula. What about in baseball when someone starts the first half of a season and hits like 25 homers, then tails off the 2nd half and hits 8. Good season but what half is a better indicator? Figuring he played poorly more recently and last season as a whole, I say he played over his head for a nice stretch. I was wrong the 1st time tho, only time can tell.

I'm sure there are a few Lavar Arrington fans that would love to pick GW apart, and perhaps a few that thought Walt Harris suddenly became a revolving door this year might too, but I don't see chinks in the armor as the entirety of a coach's resume. I see that as a coach knowing more than I, and making decisions that benefit the overall team as opposed to the short-sighted desires of player-fans.

My reply: I used to love LA, second only to Smoot. A little personality never turned me off if the guy leaves his heart on the field. This season I couldnt grasp why you wouldnt put one of the best linebackers in the NFL, even when there was a little drama. His talent was off the charts..but have you seen him play? solid but it will never be the same..I dont think anyone can debate that except w/the heart. WH..do you rem. him from his NY days?..lol..he's a nickel back at best. Last year he played behind FS and SS(who stayed healty)and never drew tough WRs to cover. If GW said he could fill in good for FS, then I will take a giant shot at GW's arrogance..but who knows the real story there.

... The Eagle game? the Eagles were moving the ball on us at will in the first half. The Redskins scored on drives of 75, 70 and 72 yards in that game, while the defense gave up drives of 62 and 71. Sure, the defense picked up its game in the second half, but make no mistake, the offense kept the team afloat until then.

My reply: I have to check that game's drives. I do not rem. it the same way you do. I might be wrong but I thought the O struggled in the first half. I do know that the D forced like 5tos and the O was starting in the Eagles field almost every drive. The D played solid for the game as far as yds went but the reason they won the game in tos in gen. and the scores or position it created.

Don't give me the injury excuse , Lewis lost his first playoff game. And this is his THIRD year as a head coach. If he's such a genius compared to Gibbs, why did he go 8-8 in HIS second year and completely miss the playoffs? Maybe Gibbs is actually doing a BETTER job than Lewis. The second year returns seem to bear that out.

And I reallly really hope you aren't implying that Gibbs kept the same squad together during the 80s and 90s. From 82-91 there were six starters that played in all three SBs. Six. Are you telling me he'll be unable to keep six starters on his team this time around?

My reply: Palmer was the Bengals this year. Honestly, its like the old Lions losing B.Sanders. Dont compare ML and JG and their respective timeframes. JG took over a roster w/Smoot, LA, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Griffin, Pierce, Santana, Clinton, Samuels, Jansen, Thomas..I chose to name only superstar calibur players and not solid players below that. Can you do the same for Cin. 3 yrs ago? I would love to see the effort.

I didnt make my point clear on JG's teams, my bad. Not the actual squad but the fact that they could field a superior roster year after year(like SF), which is impossible in this era's NFL. I think JG is a great coach for the quick turn around to a SB winner in the beg. but less credit for the later yrs. By superior I mean a team that can have SB expectation every yr. NE comes to mind recently but their roster wasnt superior to other teams like the old SF and Wsh

Again here we go: 1 game! JG had just won SIX STRAIGHT, four of them on the road. And you are complaining about style points in one of them.

My reply: If JG had more control over the D I would say he won 6 straight as coach..

Read what you're writing. You think Gibbs should have come in and gone 13-3 immediately, and then won a Superbowl this year. Find me a coach, ANY coach of any era in any sport, who came in and immediately put together back-to-back seasons of that calibre. If you can find more than, say, five, then I agree. Kick Gibbs to the curb. If you can't, perhaps you've set your expectations just a tad bit too high.

My response: Its tricky..nobody could have predicted the D would be that dominant(see the Bears this year). Last yrs D was up there and we had WAY more talent than Chi this yr. My prob is I view the D as being run by GW(which it is),so I isolate JG's contributions. I think that's our main stumbling block..if you view last yr as a whole its not bad because we established a good attitude and great D.

[dmauro1]

Forgive me, I had to look at this again as something about it just didn't seem right with me.

dmauro1, do you really consider Lewis a success, on a level that Gibbs is not? I have to question your reasoning on this.

Lewis came to Cincinatti as a defensive genius. I'm no Cinci fan so I'll take your word that he's delegating the offense to someone else. That being a given, let's look at Cincinatti's unit rankings over the past three years:

2003:

Offense: 12th

Defense: 28th

Record: 8-8

2004:

Offense: 19th

Defense: 19th

Record: 8-8

2005:

Offense: 4th

Defense: 28th

Record: 11-5

So, Marv Lewis, a man you would hope our coach here would emulate as a success provides a FAR worse unit than his coordinator on the other side of the ball. And this is three years into his program. Why aren't you lamenting the fact that the Bengals wasted a top five offense and a darn fine job by an assistant coach this year? Where is the outrage over the fact that Lewis hasn't feilded a defense in the top half of the league after three years? Does Palmer play defense? Why did the Bengals defense, Lewis' specialty, give up 31 points at home?

Why is Lewis a 'success' where Gibbs is a failure?

Gibbs' offense was 11th this year. A nice compliment to our #9 defense. And after two years, no less. Why are you not affording Gibbs the same benefit of doubt that you apparently give everyone else?

I find that puzzling coming from a fan of the Redskins ...

I debated this in my last post. And please send me a bill for the editing. I do appreciate it in all sincerity...lol

[dmauro1]

For your inspection, Clinton Portis' final five games of the season, when Gibbs altered his philosophy mid-season and decided to commit to the run, and coincidentally won five straight games:

27car 136yds 2TDs

26car 105yds 1TD

23car 112yds

27car 108yds 1TD

27car 112yds 2TDs

With Thomas, Jansen, Raubach, Samuels and Dockery we do just fine. Last year we didn't have Jansen. In the playoffs we didn't have Thomas. In the Seahawks game we didn't have Thomas' backup. I submit that instead of kicking out the first coach to turn this team around since ... well, since he was the coach, perhaps getting a little more depth along the OL would provide a less drastic solution.

Nice stretch..but dont go by that. Include passing stats and also take in to account those arent that special of numbers. Its only a tad over 4 yds/carry. I personally think we have a FAR superior O line to the NYG and Sea and I will take Clinton over Tiki(overall)any day. Please post Tiki's stats next to CP's

[dmauro1]

for the uninitiated, the clear difference is that an injury to your starting quarterback, running back or other skilled players on offense reduces their effectiveness to a greater degree than perhaps the same injury would to a DT or LB.

if a quarterback can't set his feet and step up into this throws then you are at risk for interceptions and balls thrown high, which is what happened to Brunell in Tampa and Seattle.

if a running back has shoulder injuries and is a physical runner like Portis, his effectiveness over 4 quarters comes into question and you tend to use him as much as a decoy as a staple of your offense, again which is something the Redskins did in the playoffs.

My response: I agree on the QB thing..but did you see MB in Philly and TB?..its like you said..Why was he playing then?

and Portis..I will take him at 75% over most backs at 100%..what is it w/ppl saying he had a bad game..did ppl watch it..what holes did he miss? There was a wall of Seahawks as soon as he got the ball..that why strecthing the field and getting 9 guys out of the box would have helped.

[pgitta]

The two most shared opinions on this site, in ref. to why we lost in the playoffs, are JG's playcalling and injuries. Perhaps one could say that the playcaliing was limited because of the injuries and so on....but its a bunch of bs.

If any coach of the Skins had the right to complain, its G.Williams. How about that gem in Tampa w/no Carlos Rodgers and ST after his spitting incident. Not to mention RW breaking his arm, C.Griffin has been hobbling around for weeks, as has S.Springs, who couldnt go this last game. Guess what, the D was plenty good enough last week too.

The point is great coaches find a way to win despite injuries like GW did. Think of BB in NE in past years. Joe Gibbs is lacking in his gameplan because there is no plan B in case of an injury. For that matter, there is no plan B if he cant run the ball or if he gets down by two scores.

Its absurd that JG cant move the ball w/what he had. Samuels, Jansen, Raubach, and a solid Dockery is an O line most teams would love to have. Yes, Ray Brown was a weak link and limited sweeps and what not..but he's not a bum. He's been in the NFL 20 years and can still protect well. JG was at fault for exposing RB like he did.

Not to mention his O had Clinton Portis, Santana, Cooley, and a healty Ramsey if MB was hurt or struggling. Ppl here are acting like we have a Chicago Bear type of O and one injury can ruin the season.

Also, this site is saying the prob is depth. Well, the prob. w/JG is his way to win requires a top 5 type of D, which means BIG $ on that side. Then on O, he needs a top power running attack. Hence, big ticket players like Samuels, Jansen, Raubach, and Thomas. Throw in Clinton's huge deal and Santana to stretch the field...and dont forget his need for a veteran QB like MB that costs money. Bottom line is in the salary cap era, it wont get much better than this.

We proved(the D and the talent we have on O)that this squad could have gone to the Super Bowl as is. Every JG backer has said that when he has all the tools next year he's going to have a great O..but what happens if someone gets injured(Santana, Clinton, OL guy,ect.)?..is the season a lost cause again?..

In the NFL these days(not like the unbalanced NFL of JG's first stint), you are not going to have a far superior team than other playoff teams. Injuries suck and cause probs. but you have to prepare and work through them. JG blew that game..no ifs, ands, or buts...

and the funniest thing I have read is how losing T.Jacobs really caused probs in the playcaliing..I hate to even waste my finger's time debating this. TJ takes no attention off SM or Cooley and sure as heck cant get open by himself

IT WAS ONE GAME!!!!

Why didn't the Colts win?! Why didn't the Bears win? Why didn't the Giants win?

You could practice all summer with the Pro Bowl team and STILL lose a single game!

They just f'ing lost for God's sake.

[Henry]

You are remembering only the second half of the Eagle game. In the first half there was one fumble at mid-field with a minute to go until halftime, and one three-and-out from the defense. Ever other Eagle drive in the first half involved at least one first down. And why is it, exactly, that the defense gets credit for getting turnovers but the offense gets none for avoiding them? We had one turnover in that game, and meaningless interception at the end of the first half. Surely that helps a defense a bit, doncha think?

Palmer was the Bengals this year. Honestly, its like the old Lions losing B.Sanders. Dont compare ML and JG and their respective timeframes. JG took over a roster w/Smoot, LA, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Griffin, Pierce, Santana, Clinton, Samuels, Jansen, Thomas..I chose to name only superstar calibur players and not solid players below that. Can you do the same for Cin. 3 yrs ago? I would love to see the effort.

Palmer was the Bengals? That doesn't help your case then. You are in effect saying that Lewis is a success when Palmer is the Bengals, while Gibbs is a failure because Williams is the Redskins. Lewis' defense was 28th in the league this year, and they gave up 31 points in their playoff game ... THREE YEARS into the program. Gibbs' offense after two years is twice as good as LEwis' defense after three years. Again I have to ask, why the double-standard for Gibbs?

Oh, and Gibbs did not have Washington, Springs, Taylor, Griffin, Santana or Clinton when he took over. Every single one of those players signed on or were drafted by Gibbs himself. He took over a 5-11 team, completely overhauled it's roster and completely changed it's philosophy. And here you are complaining the team didn't win 13 games right off the bat. Honestly, how can you be arguing this (and worse, questioning my knowledge) when you don't even know the makeup of our own team? Do you realize how silly that sounds?

Nice stretch..but dont go by that. Include passing stats and also take in to account those arent that special of numbers. Its only a tad over 4 yds/carry.

You don't want me to do that, because that willshow that we were passing for a lot more earlier in the season, and yet we were struggling to win games. And then Gibbs changed his scheme to run the ball more, and we won five straight. It would totally shatter your assertation that Gibbs is incapable of adjusting his offense.

But I will if you insist.

I personally think we have a FAR superior O line to the NYG and Sea and I will take Clinton over Tiki(overall)any day. Please post Tiki's stats next to CP's

Those are your opinions and only yours. Seattle has a MONSTER line. The Giants line, healthy this year, is quite good as well. Just because you think that ours is better doesn't mean it is. Where does this opinion come from? Past performance? We hadn't had a decent offense in YEARS before GIbbs showed up (28th in 2001, 19th in 2002, 23rd in 2003) yet we had a top ten defense every year since 2000 execpt once. You keep insisting that we are chock full of superstars on offense, yet there is no evidence to support that reasoning.

Truth is, the offense had a further to go than the defense when Gibbs signed on. All you need to do is look at our squads' performance from 2000-2003.

[GSF]

This might be most lopsided debate I've ever seen on here.

[skinfan133]

The two most shared opinions on this site, in ref. to why we lost in the playoffs, are JG's playcalling and injuries...

well the fact that gibbs is 17-6 in the post season does him justice enough case closed

[dmauro1]

You are remembering only the second half of the Eagle game. In the first half there was one fumble at mid-field with a minute to go until halftime, and one three-and-out from the defense. Ever other Eagle drive in the first half involved at least one first down. And why is it, exactly, that the defense gets credit for getting turnovers but the offense gets none for avoiding them? We had one turnover in that game, and meaningless interception at the end of the first half. Surely that helps a defense a bit, doncha think?

MY reply: I rem. the D having a less than perfect first half but I thought the O did lousy save 1 drive. We play not to lose many times and no I do not think it helps the D because wouldnt you rather see 1 turn over but consistant 1st downs instead of having to always go back on the field after 3 plays. From a D perspective I mean.

Palmer was the Bengals? That doesn't help your case then. You are in effect saying that Lewis is a success when Palmer is the Bengals, while Gibbs is a failure because Williams is the Redskins. Lewis' defense was 28th in the league this year, and they gave up 31 points in their playoff game ... THREE YEARS into the program. Gibbs' offense after two years is twice as good as LEwis' defense after three years. Again I have to ask, why the double-standard for Gibbs?

Oh, and Gibbs did not have Washington, Springs, Taylor, Griffin, Santana or Clinton when he took over. Every single one of those players signed on or were drafted by Gibbs himself. He took over a 5-11 team, completely overhauled it's roster and completely changed it's philosophy. And here you are complaining the team didn't win 13 games right off the bat. Honestly, how can you be arguing this (and worse, questioning my knowledge) when you don't even know the makeup of our own team? Do you realize how silly that sounds?

My reply: The whole point of Palmer being Cin is that they do not have a talented squad save a few key players. Theri roster doesnt have half as much talent as the Skins, you dont agree?..go position be position.

I consider JG the best team builder in the NFL. I think he should be GM and Pres. of Ops for as long as he wants to be. His X's and O's will never evolve enough to take us to the next level tho. Think I. Thomas for the NYK(who sucks, JG has done great). Very hands on approach and his call is the final call in every thing off the field.

You don't want me to do that, because that willshow that we were passing for a lot more earlier in the season, and yet we were struggling to win games. And then Gibbs changed his scheme to run the ball more, and we won five straight. It would totally shatter your assertation that Gibbs is incapable of adjusting his offense.

But I will if you insist.

My reply: This year's D was not as dominant as last years. They had bad games(not NEARLY as many as the O but..)in Den, KC, TB when I thought our O was at its best. It's all about getting them to both play good in the same game. Think SF, Dallas, and NY..yes you cant expect blowouts every game but we have a serious prob of playing to the level of the comp and playing not to lose when the D is playing great..like Chi, Dallas(3 1/2 q), Oak, TB, Sea..ect(there's more). I know most of those were wins but honestly you cant debate that one or two plays going for us or against us decided the W or L. This season went good for us but if you go that route you can lose heartbreakers just as easy(i.e. Skins for the last 10 yrs)

Those are your opinions and only yours. Seattle has a MONSTER line. The Giants line, healthy this year, is quite good as well. Just because you think that ours is better doesn't mean it is. Where does this opinion come from? Past performance? We hadn't had a decent offense in YEARS before GIbbs showed up (28th in 2001, 19th in 2002, 23rd in 2003) yet we had a top ten defense every year since 2000 execpt once. You keep insisting that we are chock full of superstars on offense, yet there is no evidence to support that reasoning.

Truth is, the offense had a further to go than the defense when Gibbs signed on. All you need to do is look at our squads' performance from 2000-2003.

My reply: Very true, I was merely stating my opinion. I can admit when I do that...but I think you look more towards production..I think talent..Samuels, Jansen, Thomas, Raubach..think of the level they are capable of playing at if someone tapped in to their talent 100%..I dont think its far fetched to say every one of those guys can play at a Pro Bowl level. How many teams have 4!! guys you can realistically say that about..from an objective perspective.

[GSF]

My reply: The whole point of Palmer being Cin is that they do not have a talented squad save a few key players. Theri roster doesnt have half as much talent as the Skins, you dont agree?..go position be position.

Yeah, the only have the most talented young QB and WR in the league. Their #2 and #3 WRs are pretty decent too, and Rudi Johnson is a good back.

I assume you're talking about on offense, since the point you are trying to make is that Gibbs can't cut it on offense. You just don't make any sense dude.

[dmauro1]

Yeah, the only have the most talented young QB and WR in the league. Their #2 and #3 WRs are pretty decent too, and Rudi Johnson is a good back.

I assume you're talking about on offense, since the point you are trying to make is that Gibbs can't cut it on offense. You just don't make any sense dude.

No. Cin's D lacked any major talent, that is why they could not go to the next level w/o Palmer. JG has that crutch to fall on no matter who gets hurt on O.

[Henry]

Well, apparently Gibbs agrees with you, dmauro, as he went out and hired the best OC int he game.

But he's still the head coach.

Good enough?