Could Someone Please Explain

[zoony]

The whole CIA leak scandal that is grabbing headlines?

I would be interested in the cliff notes version. (OK I'm a bad constituent, I admit... I haven't been keeping up. Shoot me)

Thanks in advance.

[rincewind]

Zoony, you should probably post this thread twice - and make one for Liberal responses and one for Conservative, or your never going to get a clear response

[zoony]

Zoony, you should probably post this thread twice - and make one for Liberal responses and one for Conservative, or your never going to get a clear response

:laugh:

Honest question though.... I am very uninformed on this one.

(hear that spinsters? A virgin mind for you to contaminate )

[Kilmer17]

Libruls bad, GOP good.

[Guest Dave959]

Here's how I understand it....

1. Bush administration claimed Iraq had wepons of mass destruction.

2. Ambassador Wilson spoke out before we went to war and said no they don't.

3. The Bush administration in return leaked that Ambassador Wilson's wife is a CIA operative.

4. Some people think that the leak wasn't very nice, others consider it treason.

[zoony]

Thanks Dave.

And Kilmer, I already knew that.

.......

[DeanCollins]

Libby was doinking Plame, Plame tried to end it, Libby outed her. The rest is spin.

[chomerics]

Here's how I understand it....

1. Bush administration claimed Iraq had wepons of mass destruction.

2. Ambassador Wilson spoke out before we went to war and said no they don't.

3. The Bush administration in return leaked that Ambassador Wilson's wife is a CIA operative.

4. Some people think that the leak wasn't very nice, others consider it treason.

Close, but not correct.

Wilson was sent on a trip to Niger to investegate the claim that Iraq had procured Uranium from Niger.

Wilson said there was no evidence, and that it did not take place. He gave his report to the CIA, who in turn gave it to the White House.

There were two other investegations on the claim, one from the ambassador to Niger, and another from a Marine 4-star general. Both corroberated Wilson's story.

The president claimed in a SOTU address "British Intel has learned that Saddam Hussen reciently tried to purchase yellowcake from Africa"

The British white paper was based on the same incident Wilson and the other two investegated.

Wilson published an op-ed in the NY Times in July of 03 titles "What I didn't find in Niger"

Both Karl Rove and Scooter Libby told at least 3 reporters, and most likely six or more that Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson's wife sent him on the trip.

Robert Novak published a column which in essence "outed" Plame, and told that she worked for the CIA.

Valerie Plame was an undercover CIA operative, and even Wilson's family did not know her occupation. It destroyed her career.

John Ashcroft had to recuse himself on the investegation because Karl Rove was his campaign manager in his 2000 campaign loss to the dead politician.

Fitzgerald took over the case, and a year later implicated Libby on misleading and lying to a federal grand jury.

The investegation is still ongoing, but it appears as if karl Rove is the next to get indicted.

That is the rough and tumble short story.

[DjTj]

Just so you don't end up with only the liberal side of the story...

After two years of investigation, nobody has been charged with the crime of revealing Valerie Plame's identity. There is no solid proof that the Bush administration was behind anything, and it's possible that somebody else blew Plame's cover before Karl Rove and Scooter Libby started talking about it. The investigation is still ongoing, and we really don't know what all the facts are just yet.

Only two people have been charged with anything:

- Judith Miller, a New York Times reporter who went to jail for refusing to testify before a grand jury because she wanted to protect her confidential sources. She later did testify and was released from jail. She has since left her job at the New York Times.

- Scooter Libby, VP Cheney's Chief of Staff, who was charged with perjury because his testimony before the grand jury appears to have been a lie. He has since resigned from his job and will go to trial sometime in the near future.

[zoony]

Close, but not correct.

Wilson was sent on a trip to Niger to investegate the claim that Iraq had procured Uranium from Niger.

Wilson said there was no evidence, and that it did not take place. He gave his report to the CIA, who in turn gave it to the White House.

There were two other investegations on the claim, one from the ambassador to Niger, and another from a Marine 4-star general. Both corroberated Wilson's story.

The president claimed in a SOTU address "British Intel has learned that Saddam Hussen reciently tried to purchase yellowcake from Africa"

The British white paper was based on the same incident Wilson and the other two investegated.

Wilson published an op-ed in the NY Times in July of 03 titles "What I didn't find in Niger"

Both Karl Rove and Scooter Libby told at least 3 reporters, and most likely six or more that Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson's wife sent him on the trip.

Robert Novak published a column which in essence "outed" Plame, and told that she worked for the CIA.

Valerie Plame was an undercover CIA operative, and even Wilson's family did not know her occupation. It destroyed her career.

John Ashcroft had to recuse himself on the investegation because Karl Rove was his campaign manager in his 2000 campaign loss to the dead politician.

Fitzgerald took over the case, and a year later implicated Libby on misleading and lying to a federal grand jury.

The investegation is still ongoing, but it appears as if karl Rove is the next to get indicted.

That is the rough and tumble short story.

thank you chom

This sounds complicated.

Why was his wife 'outed'? What purpose did it serve?

And why would Plame send her husband on the trip? What authority did she have?

EDIT (AHEM)

What business does Karl Rove have in this?

[DeanCollins]

thank you chom

This sounds complicated.

Why was his wife 'outed'? What purpose did it serve?

And why would Plame send her husband on the trip? What authority did she have?

And who is scooter libby and karl rove?

damn zoony been working hard up in that stil? :laugh:

[rincewind]

thank you chom

This sounds complicated.

Why was his wife 'outed'? What purpose did it serve?

And why would Plame send her husband on the trip? What authority did she have?

And who is scooter libby and karl rove?

who is Karl Rove? now this could start an interesting debate.

he is a big time Bush spinnster

[zoony]

damn zoony been working hard up in that stil? :laugh:

OK, I know who Rove is... I meant who is he in all this?

question came across wrong.

And yes... very demanding work in the stil.

[Redskins Diehard]

Close, but not correct.

Wilson was sent on a trip to Niger to investegate the claim that Iraq had procured Uranium from Niger.

Wilson said there was no evidence, and that it did not take place. He gave his report to the CIA, who in turn gave it to the White House.

There were two other investegations on the claim, one from the ambassador to Niger, and another from a Marine 4-star general. Both corroberated Wilson's story.

The president claimed in a SOTU address "British Intel has learned that Saddam Hussen reciently tried to purchase yellowcake from Africa"

The British white paper was based on the same incident Wilson and the other two investegated.

Wilson published an op-ed in the NY Times in July of 03 titles "What I didn't find in Niger"

Both Karl Rove and Scooter Libby told at least 3 reporters, and most likely six or more that Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson's wife sent him on the trip.

Robert Novak published a column which in essence "outed" Plame, and told that she worked for the CIA.

Valerie Plame was an undercover CIA operative, and even Wilson's family did not know her occupation. It destroyed her career.

John Ashcroft had to recuse himself on the investegation because Karl Rove was his campaign manager in his 2000 campaign loss to the dead politician.

Fitzgerald took over the case, and a year later implicated Libby on misleading and lying to a federal grand jury.

The investegation is still ongoing, but it appears as if karl Rove is the next to get indicted.

That is the rough and tumble short story.

Just the facts with no angle...I love it.

What exactly is an "undercover CIA operative"? Do you know?

[Cskin]

2. Ambassador Wilson spoke out before we went to war and said no they don't.

Um... Chom... aren't you forgetting that even Nigerian authorities believed that Hussein wanted to "build trade relations" with the Niger.... eventhough the only thing Niger has worth trading is Uranium? Nigerian officials have commented that they found the meeting weird.... and summized that it was their belief that Hussein was really just feeling out the Nigerians to see if a "trade relationship.... aka uranium sale" could be established.

Forgot that little tidbit of the story didn't ya. Not in the talking points referenced under in the Democratic Party pamphlet "How to explain Wilson, Niger, and Iraq without intimating to Hussein's true possible intentions" huh? :doh:

[Predicto]

Um... Chom... aren't you forgetting that even Nigerian authorities believed that Hussein wanted to "build trade relations" with the Niger.... eventhough the only thing Niger has worth trading is Uranium? Nigerian officials have commented that they found the meeting weird.... and summized that it was their belief that Hussein was really just feeling out the Nigerians to see if a "trade relationship.... aka uranium sale" could be established.

Forgot that little tidbit of the story didn't ya. Not in the talking points referenced under in the Democratic Party pamphlet "How to explain Wilson, Niger, and Iraq without intimating to Hussein's true possible intentions" huh? :doh:

May or may not be true. People disagree on that.

Either way, of course, it doesn't justify the outing of Plame, which started this ball rolling leading to the current indictment of Libby, all of which Chom did explain reasonably well and accurately in his post.

[chomerics]

Um... Chom... aren't you forgetting that even Nigerian authorities believed that Hussein wanted to "build trade relations" with the Niger.... eventhough the only thing Niger has worth trading is Uranium? Nigerian officials have commented that they found the meeting weird.... and summized that it was their belief that Hussein was really just feeling out the Nigerians to see if a "trade relationship.... aka uranium sale" could be established.

Forgot that little tidbit of the story didn't ya. Not in the talking points referenced under in the Democratic Party pamphlet "How to explain Wilson, Niger, and Iraq without intimating to Hussein's true possible intentions" huh? :doh:

Skin, there were no discussions, and the leader of Niger at the time THOUGHT that they wanted yellowcake. It was never discussed though, and Wilson did mention it. Again, it isn't really a fact if somebody THINKS something, but that something never happens. Now if Iraq HAD asked for yellowcake, I would have put it in there, but since they DIDN'T ask for any, it is not pertinant to the discussion.

[chomerics]

thank you chom

This sounds complicated.

Why was his wife 'outed'? What purpose did it serve?

Supposedly it was a shot across the bow of anyone who would dare cross the administration. It had the appearance of a direct retaliation for coming out with the truth about there being no nuclear program. . . and as we know now, no Al Qaeda connection or WMDs.

And why would Plame send her husband on the trip? What authority did she have?

That matter is still debated. The white house contends that she did send her husband, because it makes it look like nepotism and a cush job for vacation. The CIA says she did not send him, and Niger is really no vacation spot.

Wilson claims that she wasn't involved. The truth I think lies somewhere in between. I think Plame's boss, knew Wilson was familiar with the area and discussed it with Plame. Valerie then asked Joe privately (he says she does this) and he agreed. The entire business of who sent him really isn't part of the issue, and it was just leaked to muddy the water.

As for the undercover CIA operative. . . She ran a fake business which gathered intel on WMDs. She ran the business out of a fake office in Boston, which was also published. She lost all her contacts and credibility because of this. Wilson's family did not know that was her job, to give you and idea of how secret it was. She was in DC for I believe 5 or 6 years though, but still under cover under a fake name and it pissed off the CIA to no end. They called for the federal investegation because they considered it a grave offense. There has been no followup on the fallout that has been made public, so I don't know the extent of the damage, but it wasn't good.

So far the only crime that has been comitted has been lying to a federal grand jury, and nobody has been implicated in leaking her name, but the investegation is still ongoing, and it is not finished yet.

That is what I know as of right now, but there is still more to come

EDIT (AHEM)

What business does Karl Rove have in this?

[BlueTalon]

thank you chom

This sounds complicated.

Why was his wife 'outed'? What purpose did it serve?

And why would Plame send her husband on the trip? What authority did she have?

EDIT (AHEM)

What business does Karl Rove have in this?

There are a few details missing in Chom's synopsis.

-- Wilson originally claimed to have been sent to Niger by Vice President Cheney's office -- a lie that obliquely dragged the administration into the story.

-- Bob Woodward now claims that Plame's identity had been "leaked" before Cheney or Rove ever mentioned her, giving credibility to Rove's claim that he heard about her from a reporter.

-- Plame had been in the United States working for the CIA for over 5 years by the time any "leak" had occured, which means she wasn't a "CIA operative" in any meaningful sense.

-- The law protecting against the disclosure of identities stipulates that the disclosure must be intentional and malicious (something the left believes, but they'd typically attribute those characteristics to Cheney about any subject). Also, the disclosure must have happened within 5 years, and so the law clearly does not apply in this case.

I'd mention something about a Vanity Fair interview or photo spread, but I don't know the details of it, so I'll leave that to someone else.

[chomerics]

There are a few details missing in Chom's synopsis.

-- Wilson originally claimed to have been sent to Niger by Vice President Cheney's office -- a lie that obliquely dragged the administration into the story.

Not true, Wilson said Cheney's office asked the CIA to look into it, and the CIA sent him. Your version is RW spin meant to discredit Wilson, but he never said "Cheney's office sent him." He said Cheney's office requested an investegation, something entirely different.

-- Bob Woodward now claims that Plame's identity had been "leaked" before Cheney or Rove ever mentioned her, giving credibility to Rove's claim that he heard about her from a reporter.

But the reporter Rove said he heard it from was not Woodward. Rove claimed he heard about it from Tim Russert, and Russert emphatically denies it, and already testified. it doesn't add credibility to Rove's story, it says there is another leak in the office.

-- Plame had been in the United States working for the CIA for over 5 years by the time any "leak" had occured, which means she wasn't a "CIA operative" in any meaningful sense.

Once you are in the CIA and undercover you are always considered an operative. It allows the dummy corporations they set up and the contacts they have to continue thinking it. This is more spin trying to say "well, technically she really wasn't under cover", but again, still ignores the crux of the issue.

-- The law protecting against the disclosure of identities stipulates that the disclosure must be intentional and malicious (something the left believes, but they'd typically attribute those characteristics to Cheney about any subject). Also, the disclosure must have happened within 5 years, and so the law clearly does not apply in this case.

I would not say that it "clearly" does not apply, because the case is still ongoing, and there is a posibility that someone may get charged.

I'd mention something about a Vanity Fair interview or photo spread, but I don't know the details of it, so I'll leave that to someone else.

I haven't heard anything about this, what did you hear?

[Redskins Diehard]

Once you are in the CIA and undercover you are always considered an operative. It allows the dummy corporations they set up and the contacts they have to continue thinking it. This is more spin trying to say "well, technically she really wasn't under cover", but again, still ignores the crux of the issue.

You work there so you know. What is your source for this claim?

[zoony]

Thank you everyone for the summaries.

The only thing that comes to mind as an original thought after reading a lot of this, is why would the Bush administration risk so much by taking this course of action? It seems to me that there are a lot better ways to get back at someone, etc. without being so completely obvious.

I dunno... I think the powers that be are too smart to do something so foolish, but maybe I'm giving them too much credit. :whoknows:

[Kilmer17]

That's the thing that is most strange to me.

If you want to really f@#k with Wilson, there are much better ways.

[zoony]

That's the thing that is most strange to me.

If you want to really f@#k with Wilson, there are much better ways.

Like getting him on a C-130 and shooting his plane down over a combat zone?... and then calling it a crash?

(easy chom, dem jus jokes. )

........

[Art Monk Fan]

The truth is always a lot less "sexy" than the conspiracy theories, which is why the theories never go away and the truth is always doubted.

The truth appears to be that Plame's "secret" was not much of one anymore; she worked in the CIA headquarters in DC, coming and going from the building quite openly. Any competent foreign spy could have found her it out, it seems.

The truth about the Special Prosecutor's grand conclusion that Libby was the origin of the "outing," is that Libby and Rove's testimony that the reporters brought this up appears to be true. We now know that Woodward knew long before Libby first discussed it with any reporter. We also know that any discussion of it from Libby or Rove came within larger conversations and that Plame came up only in passing.

If this was a concerted effort to get back at Wilson, you'd expect more than a few passing comments within conversations about other things. Plus, Woodward contends that Plame's past employment was widely known in inside Washington circles and that there is nothing going on here but a witch hunt.

What is lacking here is a motive. It appears the "secret" was no secret, it appears there was no orchestrated effort on anyone's part and it appears that the whole incident has only hurt the administration. Someone has yet to explain to me how the "evil mastermind" that is Karl Rove would think that compromising national security by outing undercover agents would be a good thing. The answer is: not much was compromised, she wasn't undercover and they didn't do it — the topic came up in the process of several investigative reporters following the same thread in their investigations.