Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design

[Destino]

Explain to me how Catholics honor Mary if it's not worship?

Easy....we don't worship Mary. What you see as worship, isn't.

When has it been explained to me? Furthermore I have "looked it up".

From Catholicism.org

[/b]

Am I wrong? Do catholics not believe that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra(from the throne) that he is infallible?

It was explained earlier in this thread. The pope is infallible in regards to church docterine when he speaks from the throne. He is not "infallible" as christ was in all things. A major difference you gloss over as a minor detail.

But you claim that these things are not biblical. So looked around for a good explanation for you...

The Charism of Truth Handling: Infallibility

Jesus Christ was sent by the Father and was known as an authentic Teacher. Forty times in the New Testament, Christ is called "teacher" (didaskalos, also translated as "Master"). Twelve times Christ is called "Rabbi" (master, the address of teachers):

Mt 23:8, 10 As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi.' You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not be called 'Master'; you have but one master, the Messiah.

Mt 7:28-29 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

Jn 1:17-18 ... because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father's side, has revealed him.

Jn 13:13-15 You call me 'teacher' and 'master,' and rightly so, for indeed I am. If I, therefore, the master and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another's feet. I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do.

The Gospels record Christ handing over to the Apostles his own mission, or divine office which he had as man.

Jn 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.

Jn 20:21 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

Mt 10:40 Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.

Lk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

Mt 28:18-20 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Christ is revealed instituting a perpetually enduring truth-teaching, truth-handling authority in the Apostles.

Mt 28:20 ... teaching them (all nations) to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Jn 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

Jn 15:26 When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.

Jn 16:12-13 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

Roman Catholic Christians believe that Christ's teaching authority and truth charism continues in His Body the Church in the successors both of Peter and then the apostles, and then to their successors: the successor of Peter in the Bishop of Rome, and the successors of the apostles, the episcopoi or bishops from apostolic time to the present.

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap050300.htm

[prophet]

The whole thing is insane... it's ok to tell everyone the "theory of evolution" and pass it off as ultimate truth... yet you can not even bring up ID in a class room?

It’s all about a belief system.... if you believe in evolution then that’s part of your personal “religious” thinking.

Sounds like what they claim the Christians of doing with their faith… they seem to be the real ones doing it... shoving it in your face. Yet it’s ok for them to get away with it…..

Does matter its all ending soon enough

[prophet]

:laugh:

I wonder if Pat Robertson is going to call "the wrath of god" on the Vatican now :rotflmao:

probably will say something about it....

who else did he call the wrath of god on? or are you stretching something he said?

[chomerics]

probably will say something about it....

who else did he call the wrath of god on? or are you stretching something he said?

He told the town in Pennsylvania that they shouldn't be suprised if disaster hit their town because they voted ID out of their school :laugh:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Conservative Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson told citizens of a Pennsylvania town that they had rejected God by voting their school board out of office for supporting "intelligent design" and warned them Thursday not to be surprised if disaster struck.

The entire article is here

[prophet]

"And don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for His help because he might not be there," he said.

not quite the same as calling the wrath of God down on them though.

I don't exactly agree with what He is saying, but I understand his reason of thinking.

Something more intresting than this is... everytime the US has forced Israel into giving up land we have had a natural disater. I'll try and find the article about it. Its kind of freaky.

[jrockster21]

Nm...................................

[CrabR]

Something more intresting than this is... everytime the US has forced Israel into giving up land we have had a natural disater. I'll try and find the article about it. Its kind of freaky.

Ha Ha Ha

We have Natural Disasters every year

It is the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious fundamentalist that keeps the region in turmoil

[DeanCollins]

:laugh:

I wonder if Pat Robertson is going to call "the wrath of god" on the Vatican now :rotflmao:

Brilliant Chom, They should have a WWF smackdown between the Pope,

and Pat Robertson. Of course the Pope gets to bring the Spanish Inquisision.

[BlueTalon]

And this thread is taking a major right turn.

Though I'm a Christian, I don't see the purpose of teaching ID.

The turn makes it less predictable and more interesting.

The problem with evolution, the way it's taught, is that it's presented as established fact, not as a theory with lots of holes and problems. Presenting ID alongside of evolution whould shine a spotlight on the problems of evolutionary theory, and the humanist/secularist/atheist/evolutionists can't have that.

[skinsfanjoe]

Easy....we don't worship Mary. What you see as worship, isn't.

If thats the easiest way for you to explain away idolatry then hey....

It was explained earlier in this thread. The pope is infallible in regards to church docterine when he speaks from the throne. He is not "infallible" as christ was in all things. A major difference you gloss over as a minor detail. [/Quote]

I never said he was infallible in all things. Go back and re-read my post. I'm questioning him being infallible on the throne.

But you claim that these things are not biblical. So looked around for a good explanation for you..

I really do apprecitate you posting scripture to back your claims.

First paragraph. I agree. We both know that Christ was infallible.

Second paragraph I disagree with. This is where Catholics and Protestants disagree. Although Christ did give a "mission" to the Apostles, They in no way were given His office.

Third paragraph, Yes Amen, God's truth will edure forever, even to the end of the age. But the question is whom will make it so? Lets examine the verses you posted.

Mt 28:20 ... teaching them (all nations) to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Jn 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

Jn 15:26 When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.

Jn 16:12-13 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

So you see it's the Holy Spirit that God gives to His people that leads and guides into all truth. One of the titles of the Pope is Vicar of Christ. I'm sorry but this is blasphemy! On the contrary, the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ.

[flashback]

I have no problem with evolution being presented as a 'theory', along with geology and and archaeology and anthropology and every other ology.

Science classes, the way I remember them, started with the Scientific Method, and applied it to whatever the subject was. So the difference between a theory and a truth was clearly delineated.

"The problem with evolution, the way it's taught, is that it's presented as established fact, not as a theory with lots of holes and problems." I believe this statement is either ignorant or disingenuous. Or possibly they teach it differently now. But I doubt that. I guess I'll find out when my son gets to whatever grade that is...

[gbear]

I still think my dad (physics teacher) has it right. They should start callig most of these scientific "theories" that have been well tested "principals" just to avoid the sheer numbers of people that don't understand what "theory" means in the scientific sense.

[stevenaa]

When I was taught Evolution, it was taught as fact There was no stressing it as a theory.

As far as ID goes, how do you introduce it without the context of religion? And which religions do you use?

[WallyVon]

The turn makes it less predictable and more interesting.

The problem with evolution, the way it's taught, is that it's presented as established fact, not as a theory with lots of holes and problems. Presenting ID alongside of evolution whould shine a spotlight on the problems of evolutionary theory, and the humanist/secularist/atheist/evolutionists can't have that.

It would be irresponsible to teach ID anywhere but a sociology class.

And evolution is just as much fact as any other scientific discovery.

[Prosperity]

+respect for the Catholic Church

Something more intresting than this is... everytime the US has forced Israel into giving up land we have had a natural disater. I'll try and find the article about it. Its kind of freaky.

sounds like zionist propaganda

[gbear]

stevenaa, theory vs fact. check out what theory means in science.

It's a hypothesis that has stood up to every test of it designed to prove it wrong. I have a theory that gravity work. When I drop my basketball, it will fall down if the theory is correct. If I drop the ball 100 times, and it does indeed fall down...guess what: It's still a theory. The 101'st time? maybe it won't drop.

Evolution is a theory. It is a theory that has stood up to many different tests. One of the most common is the fruit flies. Another comon example is the disease changing. All of the test designed thus far have reinforced the theory. Your post makes it sound like you want to bet otherwise. I have no problem with the guy who wants to bet that my basketball will indeed fall up next time. I just don't want him teaching my kid that he will fly when he jumps off my roof. So when we teach gravity, should we stress that it is just a theory?

Theory just gives us how we can predict our future observations. Accepted theories mean that all of our observations up to this point in time have shown the theory to be an accurate discription of how the universe works.

Note: in scientific language, I don't think it is even a "theory" until somebody comes up with a test where we have the chance to observe the hypothesis as failing. I think that's why so many people have a problem with ID. It is worth noting that there are some scientists working on developing just such a test on very simple organisms. It's interesting stuff. Thus far the ID tests haven't worked/been accepted because of a lack of ability to control the outside stimulus...thus allowing for something other than God to lead to the changes (right back to evolution). Thus far as I understand it, there has always been outside enviromental pressure to change. But if these test bear fruit in the future, we'll have a new branch of science and more of a merge of science and theology.

[WallyVon]

Note: in scientific language, I don't think it is even a "theory" until somebody comes up with a test where we have the chance to observe the hypothesis as failing. I think that's why so many people have a problem with ID. It is worth noting that there are some scientists working on developing just such a test on very simple organisms. It's interesting stuff. Thus far the ID tests haven't worked/been accepted because of a lack of ability to control the outside stimulus...thus allowing for something other than God to lead to the changes (right back to evolution). Thus far as I understand it, there has always been outside enviromental pressure to change. But if these test bear fruit in the future, we'll have a new branch of science and more of a merge of science and theology.

Easy now. The ID advocates will come out with their "irreducible complexity" mantras because of posts like this. Best to let them stay in the shadows.

[DjTj]

When I was taught Evolution, it was taught as fact There was no stressing it as a theory.

As far as ID goes, how do you introduce it without the context of religion? And which religions do you use?

stevenaa, was gravity taught as a fact or a theory?

was Newtonian mechanics taught as a fact or a theory?

was the number of planets in the solar system taught as a fact or a theory?

...Maybe your teacher didn't take the time to explain to you that everything in science is a theory, but that doesn't mean we should teach every single theory that anyone ever comes up with. Science education is all about teaching the best theories that science can offer, and evolution is one of the best accepted theories of the scientific community ... moreso than everything you learned in high school physics.

We have cluttered up enough subjects by trying to teach every possible perspective. American History is now African-American History, Asian-American History, Hispanic-American History, Native American History, Women's History, and a never-ending list of topics pushed by politicians rather than educators. I hope that at least in science, we can teach what is most useful and most important, rather than trying to appease every parent and child.

[Destino]

If thats the easiest way for you to explain away idolatry then hey....

It isn't idolatry if it isn't worship. You see the problem with your line of reasoning is that you see something and then you assume a belief to go with it. That assumption isn't true but you keep it up anyway because you've got nothing else. Yes Mary is given lots of attention in the Catholic faith, no she is not viewed as equal to the trinity. It's fairly simple to those that know it, though I can see how a negative thinker looking through a back window could get the wrong idea.

Second paragraph I disagree with. This is where Catholics and Protestants disagree. Although Christ did give a "mission" to the Apostles, They in no way were given His office.

Third paragraph, Yes Amen, God's truth will edure forever, even to the end of the age. But the question is whom will make it so? Lets examine the verses you posted.

So you see it's the Holy Spirit that God gives to His people that leads and guides into all truth. One of the titles of the Pope is Vicar of Christ. I'm sorry but this is blasphemy! On the contrary, the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ.

The Catholic church sees a different meaning then you do. You aren't the first angery upstart to point your finger at the church and pass judgement and you won't be the last. But the church is consistent and constant and on the issue of trying to redefine science.....experienced in such foolish ideas.

[chomerics]

The Catholic church sees a different meaning then you do. You aren't the first angery upstart to point your finger at the church and pass judgement and you won't be the last. But the church is consistent and constant and on the issue of trying to redefine science.....experienced in such foolish ideas.

:laugh: Pour me another another stout you Limey :laugh:

[prophet]

+respect for the Catholic Church

sounds like zionist propaganda

that would be me

[SUNSTONE]

"The Encycolpedia of Evolution", talks about the the subject of creationism and evolution.

In that book, the author stressed that the idea that everything evolved through evolution(monkey to man type stuff) is just a theory.

And that people who believe in creation are correct in questioning evolution and it's theorys.

In other words the author said neither were proven nor disproven.

I remember being taught evolution in Jr. High.

The picture of monkey to man was up on the wall, and they never taught anything about the theory of creation, nor did they show any of the arguements against the theory of evolution.

At the end of that, when asked, the teacher said he believed in God.

[BlueTalon]

Look, this whole ID discussion would go away if the people who taught evolution would simply be honest about its weaknesses. There are rather heated discussion just within the evolutionist community about various facts and how they are interpreted, but none of the disagreements are ever presented as part of the evolution education. They are glossed over, and what is presented is presented as "fact".

That lack of honesty is a big part of the push for the alternative viewpoint.

[SUNSTONE]

This is how I look at it.

Now first off, please forgive me if I butcher some of these definitions. It's been awhile since I have read this stuff.

The first two laws of thermodynamics talks about how matter can not be created nor distroyed.

And that the universe is drawing to an end in a chaotic state of sorts.

If there is an end, then their must be a beginning.

If there is a beginning, then where did that beginning come from.

From what I understand, scientists believe that it all had to come at once, thus the Big Bang theory.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Gen 1:1 BANG!

This is how most Christians believe everything came about.

And there are theorys that take a stand against creation.

And there are people who believe in both creation and evolution.

I take a look at everything man has created and I'm amazed by it!

But man can not create anything as complicated as the mind and body!

[WallyVon]

Look, this whole ID discussion would go away if the people who taught evolution would simply be honest about its weaknesses. There are rather heated discussion just within the evolutionist community about various facts and how they are interpreted, but none of the disagreements are ever presented as part of the evolution education. They are glossed over, and what is presented is presented as "fact".

That lack of honesty is a big part of the push for the alternative viewpoint.

RRiiiiiiiiight.