Who really cares if we Torture terrorists ?

[chomerics]

instead they use psychological tactics to get the info. much more humane and in fact more effective- as often times people lie during torture...

BINGO!!!

We have a winner. . . and from the military none the less.

[Mally]

Oh I beg to differ about the fear of pork my friend. That will freak them the hell out. They blow themselves up because they think they are doing gods work, but if you wrap them in porkskin that is completely agains their religion, they will fear that, even when they are dead. If their dead body is wrapped in porkskin trust me, they will fear it. Especially if they are just hanging on by a thread and throw them to the pigs...OH YEAH BABY !!! THat will give the terrorists something to think about.

Read this :

http://www.masada2000.org/bacon.html..

A few things here 1) fear of pork is not a deterant to people who will blow themselves up; when one is a martyr they get a pass on a lot of things 2) suggesting that we play with a guys nuts to get information out of him is rather, well, it makes a clear statement of ones intentions 3) torturing doesn't reveal quality information (please provide evidence that it does if you're going to make this claim again) 4) you need to be absolutely certain that they are terrorists BEFORE you begin to torture them.

But thanks for weighing in as pro-torture.

[chomerics]

I agree with that... They need to find out who is who, No I dont support torturing innocent people obviously. But once we find out who you are, OR you are caught in the act, or you were caught in a raid in a room full of explosives, then its all fair game.

It is way way to slippery of a slope, and there is absolutely no need for it. In fact, the US Army strictly forbids torture because it HURTS intel gathering abilities rateher then helps it.

The real point is how can you fight a war based on "your morals and values of democracy" when you completely ignore them during the fight? Don't you think this is just a bit hypocritical? And if people in America think it is hypocritical, whoat to your think Ahmed in Iraq who's brother was tortured thinks? Do you understand that Ahmed could have been PRO-American, but has since become ANTI-American because of our actions? Lokk at the increase in insurgency, and look at when it happened. Torturing the people acted as a big freakin' reruitment poster for these nutjobs, and we were caught red handed. Not good when you are shoving your political philosophy down others throats.

[NavyDave]

Yet your premise is that we will torture the innocent its not like we cant tell who was shooting at us was caught laying mines or IEDs or was swept up during a mission.

And yeah I trust us more than sniveling arm chair liberals

Mally,

The problem with your premise is that you believe they are all known terrorists. Remember, after the initial war in Iraq where we made grand sweeps and picked up tons of people without charge or trial. We later released about 65% of them saying that they had no involvement with Sadam, terrorists, or the insurgency. Do you support torturing innocents? There is a balance point, morality may need to be suspended to save lives sometimes, but you shouldn't give carte blanche approval to let the government disappear and torture anyone.

Do you trust the government to always be right?

[NavyDave]

Isn't funny how liberals snivel and weep about us WANTING the OPTION to SAVE american lives using extreme measures when every day its ho hum a thousand babies ARE vacuumed into oblivion??

[webnarc]

Yet your premise is that we will torture the innocent its not like we cant tell who was shooting at us was caught laying mines or IEDs or was swept up during a mission.

And yeah I trust us more than sniveling arm chair liberals

We're not talking about the smoking gun terrorists, we're talking about those labelled as terrorists.

TRY to understand the discussion.

[webnarc]

Isn't funny how liberals snivel and weep about us WANTING the OPTION to SAVE american lives using extreme measures when every day its ho hum a thousand babies ARE vacuumed into oblivion??

Post of the day Navy; I'd put money on it that you don't see the contradiction in your statement.

[webnarc]

Oh I beg to differ about the fear of pork my friend. That will freak them the hell out. They blow themselves up because they think they are doing gods work, but if you wrap them in porkskin that is completely agains their religion, they will fear that, even when they are dead. If their dead body is wrapped in porkskin trust me, they will fear it. Especially if they are just hanging on by a thread and throw them to the pigs...OH YEAH BABY !!! THat will give the terrorists something to think about.

Read this :

http://www.masada2000.org/bacon.html..

I have read it before and I find it difficult to believe that pork is kriptonite to terrorists. Because if it was, this administration would have done it.

[Prosperity]

Hey I got an idea, let's make a completely redundant thread about a subject that is being thoroughly debated on this same page at the tailgate.

[Mally]

I am full blooded liberal pretty much. But when it comes to this issue I am on the right side of the fence. If people who call themselves liberals wouldnt always take the left side of the issue just because that is the standard party view then this country would be better off. Same thing with the right.

Yet your premise is that we will torture the innocent its not like we cant tell who was shooting at us was caught laying mines or IEDs or was swept up during a mission.

And yeah I trust us more than sniveling arm chair liberals

[NavyDave]

Post of the day Navy; I'd put money on it that you don't see the contradiction in your statement.

Actually its you who dont see the contradiction us Saving lives liberals eliminating innocent lives.

And "torture" does not mean death.

[webnarc]

Actually its you who dont see the contradiction us Saving lives liberals eliminating innocent lives.

And "torture" does not mean death.

Explain it to me then. If I'm wrong, I need you to educate me.

[Baculus]

The problem is that we do not know if everyone we capture is a terrorist or who they are. We have talked about this previously. For example, some of the folks who ended up in Camp X-Ray ended up being released. Why? Because some of them weren't "terrorists"; some of them had been fingered by tribal rivals or simply rounded up and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Yes, there have been instances when a truck has been rolled into a village and the local men were rounded up and forced into the trucks. Voila - we've "captured terrorists." Also, some of the people that have been under custody have been young - I've heard as young as 14-year old.

The issue is that, 1) We really don't know if everyone that has been captured is a "terrorst," and 2) Torture is never an indication of an enlightened or civilized socieity. When a society starts becoming both permissive of torture as well as the definition of who the enemy is (such as the fast and loose "terrorist" definition), then the boundries of what we can and cannot do, and to whom, starts to lose its definition, which is not a good thing.

The good guys usually aren't the ones torturing. So what does that make us?

[Destino]

I am full blooded liberal pretty much. But when it comes to this issue I am on the right side of the fence. If people who call themselves liberals wouldnt always take the left side of the issue just because that is the standard party view then this country would be better off. Same thing with the right.

Since when is torture a right/left wing issue?

I can't justify it morally and without a fair trial I have no reason to believe the men tortured are guilty of anything.

[azmodeus13]

I agree that we need to get the information. There is too much threat to our way of lives, our own religions, our families, friends and our own lives to ignore the possibilities of getting needed information out of people that may know what is going on.

Personally, I feel like Abu Gharab was misdefined and blown out of proportion for political gain.

The problem with torture, in the most blatant sense, is that you can get most people to agree to just about anything as long as you will remove the red hot wire from around their fingers if they start talking. Torture, perhaps, as someone suggested, is the wrong word to use. Interrogation would be better by far as most quarters of the US government do not use torture of any kind.

Torture can be misdefined - psychological warfare as someone else - AF Cane I believe - is used most commonly, and in fact the majority of what was done at Abu Gharab was psychological breaking of people. Not letting them sleep - the Isrealis do that. Uncomfortable positions for long periods of time - the Isrealis do that. Loud music, restricted water supply, making them soil themselves - none of these falls under the realm of torture. It may appear horrific to a certain extent, but none of what happened at Abu Gharab would come close to the horror that happened to McCain in the 'Nam.

The nudity, piling the men together and the pigs to naked flesh might be considered torture, but it certainly doesn't fall under the list of things that Saddam Hussein and other tyrants have done.

Pulling nails, hot wood under the fingernails, pulling teeth, burning out eyes, wires wrapped around fingers and heating them up, hanging by various body parts, whipping, burning, breaking bones, leeches, near drownings, beatings or one of the oldies but goodies - chopping off one joint at a time starting with the little finger or toe once per day til you talk.

None of this was done in that prison, nor is it being done in Cuba. People need to be realistic and look at the uses of torture that animals like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot used, right up and including the recent past of Hussein and his lovely schools and hospitals turned into torture chambers. Wonder if everyone would have felt half so bad for the people in Abu Gharab if it had been known that the people "tortured" were the ones torturing the children in that special prison Hussein had set up just for kids.

As it is - torture won't get you anywhere quickly, but the mental breaking of a person combined with chemical interrogation can indeed get results that are far more dependable. It just depends on how quick people in America are willing to suck into the definition of "torture" as anything out of the ordinary lifestyle of an American rather than seeing it as a systematic degredation in order to break someone and loosen their tongue in order to save lives - quite logically possibly tens of thousands of lives when it comes to a chemical/biological attack involving an air delivery system let loose at, oh I don't know, your average Sunday football game?

There has to be some way to gather information - sticking them in a jail cell and telling them "Talk, or.... spend another day in this cell with food, bathrooms, shower, religious time and privileges" doesn't get you anywhere either.

There is going to have to be some compromise - chemical interrogation to ensure you have the right type of people, i.e. terrorists followed by interrogation to get information. If that doesn't work, then you bring in the PsyOps people to get the info out of them.

Torture, as outlined by that list of nasties, isn't right nor effective as far as dependability. If I was working on anybody with that list - I could get you to admit you were a blue martian with 12 eyes. But what is being considered torture at this juncture is insane, and is just as much a victory for the terrorists as the Twin Towers going up in smoke since they will now have much more operational security and less likelihood of their plots being discovered.

[Mally]

Think of it this way. Some guy comes into your home. He mutilates your wife and kids in front of you. He makes you watch and laughs the whole time your doing it.

Then down the road friends of yours capture this guy for you. You go to a woodshed and hes in there. He spits in your face and laguhs and says he enjoyed watching them squeal like a pig. What do you do ?

Since when is torture a right/left wing issue?

I can't justify it morally and without a fair trial I have no reason to believe the men tortured are guilty of anything.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I just don't think its that useful

I think Cane made the best post by talking about the Isrealis

And they have to get intel FAR quicker then we do because of proximity and numbers

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Dumb question alert...

Is there such a thing as truth serum? If so, why is torture necessary?

[Burgold]

Truth serum is not truth serum per se. It weakens the mind and makes it harder to hold things back. You could sort of get the same results with hypnosis or getting them really drunk.

[Destino]

Think of it this way. Some guy comes into your home. He mutilates your wife and kids in front of you. He makes you watch and laughs the whole time your doing it.

Then down the road friends of yours capture this guy for you. You go to a woodshed and hes in there. He spits in your face and laguhs and says he enjoyed watching them squeal like a pig. What do you do ?

I guess you could think of it that way, if you wanted to lie to yourself and feel better about what you are supporting. What we are talking about here is torturing SUSPECTS of crimes for which they have not been convicted in hopes they can provide us with information on crimes yet to be carried out. So lets play your game....

Think of it this way. Some gang is beaking into homes. They mutilate wives and kids in front of the husband/father. They makes them watch and laugh the whole time your doing it.

Your friends of capture a guy they think is connected to the group. They claim he knows who is going to be attacked next, tell you that it may be your family. You go to a woodshed and hes in there. What do you do ?

[SUNSTONE]

suspected....

There is my problem with it.

I wonder how many "pro-torture" folks here are Christians? If you are I am honestly curious how you manage to rationalize the two positions because I can't. Please share.

The bible isn't against war.

I heard a preacher talk about some media reporters who were escorted to a hiden base where hostages where being held, and beheaded with a knife.

He thinks that those reporters should be forced to give up any info on these terrorists, instead of hiding behind a job.

There are two types of torture.

1. The kind that will cripple you in some way.

2. A very uncomfortable pain that doesn't cause injury.

I think that noncrippling torture should be used on any case where lives are in jeopardy.

War, kidnappings, and sex offenders come to mind.

[chomerics]

Will some body PLEASE come up with some HARD SCIENTIFIC FACTS which describe HOW and WHY torture works???

So far, EVERY SINGLE STUDY I have read on it says the opposite, that torture does NOT work and it HINDERS the efforts because of a myriad of reasons. The only single piece I have read which even remotely said torture COULD POSSIBLY work was on the French Algers episode, and that worked out pretty bad for the French.

I also want SOLID FACTS, not some anecdotal piece of op-ed journalism. Show me specific studies that have looked at torture and have shown that it has a positive effect, not a negative one. I even brought up the Al Qaeda suspect who was feeding us false information, and we used it in our justification of the link to Saddam and Al Qaeda. . . it turns out, you tell your captors what they want to hear. . .

Until somebody from the torture camp does gives hard evidence, you guys are arguing about anecdotes with absolutely no basis of fact.

[chomerics]

The bible isn't against war.

Jesus sure as hell was. Trying to explain off war by the old testamant is like trying to explain off dinosaurs by using the same book.

I heard a preacher talk about some media reporters who were escorted to a hiden base where hostages where being held, and beheaded with a knife.

He thinks that those reporters should be forced to give up any info on these terrorists, instead of hiding behind a job.

There are two types of torture.

1. The kind that will cripple you in some way.

2. A very uncomfortable pain that doesn't cause injury.

Define injury, because mental injuries are sometimes far far worse then physical injuries.

I think that noncrippling torture should be used on any case where lives are in jeopardy.

War, kidnappings, and sex offenders come to mind.

Then go and move to Saudi Arabia where all the other radials live, we are a civilized nation that does nto torture it's citizens.

[SUNSTONE]

Think of it this way. Some guy comes into your home. He mutilates your wife and kids in front of you. He makes you watch and laughs the whole time your doing it.

Then down the road friends of yours capture this guy for you. You go to a woodshed and hes in there. He spits in your face and laguhs and says he enjoyed watching them squeal like a pig. What do you do ?

Take my katana and cut his head off then plead temporary insanity.:mad:

[Destino]

The bible isn't against war.

I heard a preacher talk about some media reporters who were escorted to a hiden base where hostages where being held, and beheaded with a knife.

He thinks that those reporters should be forced to give up any info on these terrorists, instead of hiding behind a job.

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)