Mr. Coles

[goldenster95]

According to Pro Football Weekly, "WR Laveranues Coles has been everything the Jets hoped he would be and more in his second tour of duty with the club. We hear the injured toe that was such a concern to the Redskins has not been an issue at all. More importantly, Coles seems to have quickly regained the chemistry he shared with QB Chad Pennington before leaving for Washington." Yikes! Did we make a mistake?

He's so good that, last week, both Coles and I had the same number of receptions and the same receiving yard totals.

[fuji869]

LC came to Washington thinking he would part of the Spurrier's Fun-N-Gun air it out offense. He had a solid first season in Washington, making the Pro Bowl (even though he was replacing another player). But when Coach Gibbs returned it would be more of a ball control offense, use the run to set up the pass. After that Coles did not want to be a Redskin.

[Flowtrain]

Considering Pennington cannot throw over 20 yards, sure Coles is exactly what they need; seeing all he can run is screens and slants.

Did you watch last year's playoffs?

If you had, you would've seen Pennington throw a TD pass 55 yards in the air with a torn rotator cuff.

I'm not sure how it traveled 35 yards farther than you said it could, but I am sure of what I saw.

[lunarluau]

Did you watch last year's playoffs?

If you had, you would've seen Pennington throw a TD pass 55 yards in the air with a torn rotator cuff.

I'm not sure how it traveled 35 yards farther than you said it could, but I am sure of what I saw.

[lunarluau]

Hopefully for the Jets sake nobody will tap Pennington on his shoulder or step on LC's toe during the season.

[Higgs44]

Bubba - please refer me to the posts where Skins fans "said all along" that in just one half of play, we should expect to see Coles (1) break double coverage and streak into the endzone for a 20-yd TD, and (2) lose a defender and accelerate into a seam for a 19-yd reception?

He made catches of that distance about once every two games last year. Yet, the Skins fans you know were predicting he'd do it multiple times in a half?

I guess the predictions I had seen were much less optimistic.

The bottom line is that VERY little can be taken from a handful of preseason receptions. Very little, other than the fact that Coles has shown he's currently physically capable of making precisely those plays that he was criticized for NOT making last year.

He can still make those plays...at 10 yards a pop. The guy has no speed anymore and gets Horrible seperation

[bulldog]

Coles' injury is structural and will only get worse over time as additional stress is placed on his toe joint.

This isn't a hamstring or a case of loose cartilage where a scope can help ease the pain and get the player back out on the field in a few weeks.

This type of injury changes the way a player plays the game. It changed the way Deion Sanders played the game.

Notice that when he came to the Redskins in 2000 he was vulnerable to the slants and turn in routes that forced him to move laterally across the field.

These toe injuries don't seem to affect a guy's straight line speed but as well all know football is not just played up and down the field.

The ability to cut and move laterally is important for receivers and defensive backs.

It is precisely that motion of cutting and moving laterally that re-injures the toe and puts the player back in the position of hobbling around trying to compensate for it.

With a number of contracts needed restructuring after this season and the Arrington re-do set for a 2007 decision on his future with the club, I am glad the team used the 2005 season to take the hit for Coles and let him move on.

The last thing we needed was a player that might be forced to retire in 2006 or 2007 hitting us on the cap at just the wrong time.

[Om]

Whoa. Deja vu.

I could swear we talked to Flow about LC just a couple weeks ago, and he (eventually) ceded the obvious ... that the LC the Jets got back is simply not the same player he was when we stole off with him in the night a few years back. He's not. And everyone who has watched him play since he first hurt the toe knows it. There's HOPE he'll be that player again, but that's all it is.

That he's shown some burst in preseason should shock nobody. He's had a whole offseason to rest it, just as last year. The Redskins, however, having lived with him for upwards of two limited post-injury seasons here, believed that once LC refused to have the toe repaired surgically he was NEVER going to be the same player he was whey they first got him---not over the course of a gruelling NFL season.

The Jets are gambling that rest will be enough. But there aren't many around here, who watched close up as he became a shadow of the player he was, who think they made a good call.

Add to the mix that Coles was unhappy with Gibbs' approach and chose to be vocal about it, and that Gibbs is about trying to instill a TEAM FIRST attitude here that has been sorely missing for a long time, and this was a no brainer.

Flow, I know you still have the same concerns. You're too observant a fan not to see them. Just promise me we'll have this conversation AGAIN come November or so, okay?

[Flowtrain]

He can still make those plays...at 10 yards a pop. The guy has no speed anymore and gets Horrible seperation

That's an odd comment to make. We're talking about two 20-yard plays that he made about a week and a half ago, where he showed speed and got separation against double coverage that included a quality DBs.

Yet, you're insisting that he can't make those plays anymore. You're saying that things that took place in front of thousands of people could not have actually happened.

Do you realize how insane you sound?

[ntotoro]

Yet, you're insisting that he can't make those plays anymore. You're saying that things that took place in front of thousands of people could not have actually happened.

A play or two in a pre-season game? Fine. Give him a couple full games at most during the regular season and you'll see what we have seen since 1/4 the way through the '02 season.

[Flowtrain]

Om - you and I understand that the Jets don't need Coles to be the same player that he was 2 years ago. So my concern (and that of the team) is not that Coles may never revert to his prime form. If that did happen, well that'd be just gravy.

For the Jets, there is great value in having a WR who will make tough plays over the middle and catch 90 balls, despite being "incapable of getting separation." For the Jets, that type of WR has greater value than one who catches half as many balls and gets separation, yet shies away from contact during the catch, or after the catch as a runner or blocker. Having an already strong offense with an accurate QB, a good OL and the 2004 NFL leading rusher means that the Coles will leveraged in a way that he couldn't in Washington, and in a way for which Moss was never suited.

So whereas Skins fans were frustrated by 90 short receptions, Jets fans had their own frustrations with Moss. Start with 45 receptions, and infuriating drops in the face of impending contact. Continue with Moss doing a spin move after 40% of his receptions, making a bee-line for the sideline, and spinning the ball on the turf to celebrate not getting hit.

Forget about the fans frustration with Moss. How about a QB who played through a torn rotator and a RB who is headed to Canton due to his toughness? What do you think they thought of him? That's why Pennington offered to give up millions of his own money to assist the team in swapping WRs.

The Jets turned down a healthy version of Moss in favor of a questionable version of Coles. In essence, they had the choice of being concerned about something that might happen in Coles' condition worsening, or something sure to happen in a healthy Moss acting like a healthy Moss. The choice was clear. That's why when I'm asked about my concerns going forward with Coles, we should be sure to couch it in the appropriate context.

[ntotoro]

Forget about the fans frustration with Moss. How about a QB who played through a torn rotator and a RB who is headed to Canton due to his toughness?

Does he have family there or something?

The Jets turned down a healthy version of Moss in favor of a questionable version of Coles.

A three-time SB-winning coach actually in the HOF shipped Coles out-of-town with no return postage for Moss. That sounds a little better to me.

[frankbones]

Curtis Martin is as close to a lock as there is for the Hall of Fame.

Then again, I said the same thing about Monk 15 years ago.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Curtis Martin is as close to a lock as there is for the Hall of Fame.

Then again, I said the same thing about Monk 15 years ago.

Up untill last years rushing title he was a big ?

Do you think he is a first ballot?

[ntotoro]

Curtis Martin is as close to a lock as there is for the Hall of Fame.

Then again, I said the same thing about Monk 15 years ago.

My point exactly. Martin is viewed more favorably in the eyes of the media, though, so he has the popularity factor going for him.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Om - you and I understand that the Jets don't need Coles to be the same player that he was 2 years ago. So my concern (and that of the team) is not that Coles may never revert to his prime form. If that did happen, well that'd be just gravy.

For the Jets, there is great value in having a WR who will make tough plays over the middle and catch 90 balls, despite being "incapable of getting separation." For the Jets, that type of WR has greater value than one who catches half as many balls and gets separation, yet shies away from contact during the catch, or after the catch as a runner or blocker. Having an already strong offense with an accurate QB, a good OL and the 2004 NFL leading rusher means that the Coles will leveraged in a way that he couldn't in Washington, and in a way for which Moss was never suited.

So whereas Skins fans were frustrated by 90 short receptions, Jets fans had their own frustrations with Moss. Start with 45 receptions, and infuriating drops in the face of impending contact. Continue with Moss doing a spin move after 40% of his receptions, making a bee-line for the sideline, and spinning the ball on the turf to celebrate not getting hit.

Forget about the fans frustration with Moss. How about a QB who played through a torn rotator and a RB who is headed to Canton due to his toughness? What do you think they thought of him? That's why Pennington offered to give up millions of his own money to assist the team in swapping WRs.

The Jets turned down a healthy version of Moss in favor of a questionable version of Coles. In essence, they had the choice of being concerned about something that might happen in Coles' condition worsening, or something sure to happen in a healthy Moss acting like a healthy Moss. The choice was clear. That's why when I'm asked about my concerns going forward with Coles, we should be sure to couch it in the appropriate context.

It works perfect Coles doesn't have the feet to get deep anymore and Chad doesn't have the arm so they can dink and dunk and Coles can get YAC and get Chad to the Pro Bowl

[Flowtrain]

Does he have family there or something?

He's got as much family there as Art Monk does. Only difference is, Curtis will call it home.

A three-time SB-winning coach actually in the HOF shipped Coles out-of-town with no return postage for Moss.

Ah, remember the good ole days when coaches got to focus on coaching? Things are so complicated now with the salary hat, or whatever they're calling it.

[Flowtrain]

My point exactly. Martin is viewed more favorably in the eyes of the media, though, so he has the popularity factor going for him.

There's really no comparison. Martin has had top 10 numbers in most years of his career and top 5 numbers for about half of it. Monk was top 10 relative to his peers in only about 3 seasons of his lengthy career.

They both represent quantity. Martin tips the scales in quality and consistency.

Monk's only angle over Martin is in his 3 rings. But when you recognize that Monk had just 1 catch in 2 of those games, that argument loses it's luster a bit.

[lunarluau]

:dallasuck

How did this thread become a comparison between Monk and Martin. Although I like Curtis Martin you're comparing apples and oranges. Monk a receiver and Martin a RB. Secondly, Monk retired as the all time receptions leader. Third, he has 3 SB rings. Fourth he carried himself like a professional on and off the field. he belongs in the HAll. Should have been a first ballot HOF.

Curtis Martin will probably get in but Monk should already be there.

[bubba9497]

Bubba - please refer me to the posts where Skins fans "said all along" that in just one half of play, we should expect to see Coles (1) break double coverage and streak into the endzone for a 20-yd TD, and (2) lose a defender and accelerate into a seam for a 19-yd reception?

He made catches of that distance about once every two games last year. Yet, the Skins fans you know were predicting he'd do it multiple times in a half?

I guess the predictions I had seen were much less optimistic.

The bottom line is that VERY little can be taken from a handful of preseason receptions. Very little, other than the fact that Coles has shown he's currently physically capable of making precisely those plays that he was criticized for NOT making last year.

:laugh: touchy touchy aren't we......

now lets look again at the "exact" quote..... not your out of context "spin" version

yes it's pre-season, but so far the facts are playing out as Skins fans said all along... Coles hasn't got the same speed and his ypc will again hover around 10 ypc

see when you show the complete sentence it makes sence.

you do understand what ypc means? yards per catch? an average of all catches? see when you try to narrow down Coles performance down to 1 of 3 games and only 1 catch out of 7 to predict Coles preformance this season.... it really isn't a true indicator. Doesn't give the entire picture.

first off a single 19 yard catch is hardly a test of ones downfield capability. Heck he had a couple big plays for us last season.... but few and far between.... that's why an average gives a more realistic view. take way that 1 catch and he's 6 for 59 or a 9.8 ypcthrow out the 1 yarder a 11.8 ...see it still stays around 10. No one said, he wasn't tough, or couldn't catch.... just he can't get seperation and more and stretch the field consistantly (if at all) anymore.

and while it is only preseason so far the Skins see they are getting what they wanted, more downfield plays, more speed.. than what we could get out of LC and Hot Rod.

by Comparision after the first pre-season game.... LC/Rod has been non factors after a big start, but Moss and Patten started slow but are gaining momentum as they get more playing time with Ramsey.

[nyfan]

Ask Clinton Portis whom he rather play with. Coles and Gardner or Moss and Patton! There my friend you will find your answer

[sumodat]

To all the people here who say Moss DOES want to be here:

Coles wanted to be here, too, when it was time to collect that big signing bonus. Same with Trotter, Deion, and all the other guys who come here to secure their future.

I am happy we have Moss, but don't think if he has a unproductive season he is still going to be so happy to be here. Most players around the league would like to come here for a few seasons, I am sure. Snyder pays above market value.

So this whole thing about Coles not wanting to be here and Moss wanting to be here is bologna!

When it was all going on I wanted to just keep Coles here and let him see how different the O would be this season. I was not happy about swapping Coles for Moss and us not getting a draft pick as well, but the Jets knew our situation.

All in all, I think we will do well with Moss, but I think we would have done well with Coles, too. Just because he left don't discount his talent. I thought he was one of the toughest WR's to ever play for us. He went over the middle and got pounded often. He has a lot of heart. He was always very supportive of the QB and never threw the QB under the bus. He had Brunell half of the season and never said a bad word (publicly) about him. He hated the offense last season. I can't blame him for that. Everyone of us hated it as well.

My point is, I would have liked to have Coles back this season. 1) We would have a lot more money to spend, 2) I thought he was a great WR.

I like Moss as well, but he has yet to prove he is half the WR Coles was for us. And to say we are better off because Coles didn't want to be here and Moss does want to be here, well, lets see after at least two seasons. If Coles were still here all that talk about him wanting out of the offense would be water under the bridge by now.

Coles is a guy who you want on your team. He is a big time player and I expect him to have a big season.

But we have Moss now and he has all my support. I hope he is productive!

[lunarluau]

All in all, I think we will do well with Moss, but I think we would have done well with Coles, too. Just because he left don't discount his talent. I thought he was one of the toughest WR's to ever play for us. He went over the middle and got pounded often. He has a lot of heart.

Coles jumped ship. He's no longer a Redskin. Therefore it's our responsibility as Redskins fans to bash him. Goodbye and good riddance.

:eaglesuck

[Om]

Flow,

It's revealing that in a long response to my question to you about your legitimate, previously stated level concern over Coles, you spent about 80% of it calling Santana Moss a wimp.

The part you DID write about Coles, though, answered my question: you don't expect him to be the player he was before. Well, neither did Washington. You're saying that you and the Jets are satisfied that the player the Skins were prepared to take a huge salary cap hit to dump at all costs---WITH a bad toe that has severely limited him and in all likelihood will continue to deteriorate as the season progresses to where by the end of the year, if he's on the field at all, it'll be as little more than a tight end who can't block; AND has a me-first attitude he's now displayed in both professional stops---is all you guys really wanted anyway. Well, you got 'im. Enjoy. That about covers it as far as I'm concerned.

Moss we'll discuss another day. Give me a chance to see him play a while first. Gotta tell ya, though, seeing a guy able to actually RUN down the field, even MAKE a spin move---before cutting INTO the field, btw, if you're scoring at home---and hop back to the huddle rather than limp, well ... it's done my heart good already.

[Henry]

There's really no comparison. Martin has had top 10 numbers in most years of his career and top 5 numbers for about half of it. Monk was top 10 relative to his peers in only about 3 seasons of his lengthy career.

They both represent quantity. Martin tips the scales in quality and consistency.

There you go again, pretending a top 10 ranking for a RB equates to a top ten ranking for a WR. You DO realize most teams only start one RB, but two WRs, don't you?

Monk's only angle over Martin is in his 3 rings. But when you recognize that Monk had just 1 catch in 2 of those games, that argument loses it's luster a bit.

Monk's other angle is breaking records. But I'd shy away from bashing Monk's playoff performance, considering Iron Man Martin never carried the ball even 20 times in a post season game of any kind, and his lone SB performance (a stunning 42 yards at 3.8 yards a carry) certainly doesn't add much luster to his resume.

Anyway, while we can debate the merits of certain Jets players who may or may not get into the Hall, we KNOW our coach is in. Call me crazy, but I think his evaulation of a player on his team might be considered proper context.