Skip Bayless shows his smarts on football.

[Spaceman Spiff]

He has a few good points in here, but the line that really chapped my ass is the one that says that Steve Young isn't worthy of first ballot enshrinement. :doh: What a dumbass this guy is, how he's employed by the so called worldwide leader baffles me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/050808&num=0

By Skip Bayless

Page 2

Watching their stirring Hall of Fame speeches Sunday, with their Hall of Fame coaches looking on, inspired many how-do-they-rank debates about Dan Marino and Steve Young.

If, say, Marino had played his first seven seasons for Young's first San Francisco coach, Bill Walsh, how many Super Bowls would Marino have won? In Miami, of course, Marino didn't win a single championship -- under Don Shula or Jimmy Johnson.

And was Young ultimately better than Joe Montana? The stats would say yes; the Super Bowls no. Montana won four, Young one.

Yes, Sunday's two first-ballot Hall of Famers won one Super Bowl between them. So exactly how great were these immortals?

For all of Marino's greatness, he only played in one Super Bowl.

Daniel Constantine Marino Jr. simply threw the football the best, ever. His lightning body-whip release even eclipsed Joe Namath's. At 6-foot-4, he couldn't run for down-field yardage, but his Fred Astaire footwork often bought him the extra second he needed in and around the pocket. And his velocity was underrated because he could throw with such catchable force on one play, such stunning touch on the next.

In 1994, I once mentioned to Troy Aikman, in a casual conversation about which NFL quarterback could throw the hardest, that I figured it was John Elway.

He surprised me by saying, with conviction, "No. Marino."

Elway's heater always generated more hype. Elway appeared to throw a harder ball to catch -- a real finger-breaker. Marino, perhaps registering even higher on the radar gun, threw sticky bullets.

An absurd 51 different receivers caught touchdown passes from Marino. If he threw it, you just knew you were supposed to catch it.

There has never been a more arrogant, fearless and confident passer. Marino was the Michael Jordan of passers. He knew there was no needle he couldn't thread and no chimney he couldn't sweep for a touchdown.

That was his greatness.

And his weakness.

In 1983, Marino hit Miami coach Shula with a hurricane-like force. By then, Shula had coached in five Super Bowls, and won two. But one first-hand look at Marino in mini-camp, and Shula was like a granddad smitten with his first grandson.

No way could Shula have truly appreciated what had fallen into his lap on draft day. Twenty-six teams passed on Marino after the bottom had fallen out of his senior season at Pitt -- the Panthers finished 8-4 -- resulting in runaway rumors about Marino's character. Those rumors proved to be untrue.

Shula was so amazed by the force of nature that was Marino's arm that, at age 53, Shula scrapped the bedrock philosophy upon which he had built his legend.

He basically neglected his running game and defense in favor of the forward pass.

Marino, with a record 48 TD passes, threw Shula all the way to a Super Bowl in the kid's second season. In the AFC title game, Marino threw for 421 yards and four TDs as Miami wiped out Marino's hometown Steelers 45-28.

But Montana and Walsh were waiting for them. In a Super Bowl played near the 49ers' Bay Area headquarters, at Stanford Stadium, Montana won the game's MVP after throwing for a then-record 331 yards. But he didn't outgun Marino by himself. Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig combined to rush for 123 yards as Walsh toyed with a Miami defense that didn't belong in a Super Bowl.

Neither did the Dolphins' running game, which managed 25 yards. Marino set Super Bowl records for attempts (50) and completions (29), for 318 yards, but the 49ers won 38-16.

Marino's lone appearance in a Super Bowl pretty much time-capsuled his career. He was so damn good, so headstrong, so stubborn, so intimidating that he overwhelmed even Don Shula's better judgment.

Shula loved this kid so much he couldn't bring himself to give Marino any tough love. Any "I'm going to get us a good back and let him share the load" love.

Marino's offense sometimes scored too fast. Miami's defense sometimes spent far too much time on the field, especially in playoff games.

It took Michael Jordan seven years of postseason frustration to give in to something Marino never quite did. By 1991, coach Phil Jackson finally convinced Jordan that he needed to commit to getting his teammates involved early in every game. Jordan, of course, proceeded to win six NBA titles.

Elway didn't win his two Super Bowls until Mike Shanahan found a running back named Terrell Davis in the sixth round and convinced an aging Elway to let the kid share the load.

Marino's greatest victory came in a regular-season game. The 1985 Bears had the most overpowering defense ever. They rolled into the Orange Bowl 12-0 to face the 8-4 Dolphins. Two weeks earlier at Texas Stadium, the Bears had beaten a Cowboys team that would win the NFC East, 44-0.

But in the first half that night in Miami, rolling out more than he ever had, Marino converted on third-and-18, third-and-19, third-and-13 and third-and-7. Miami scored on its first five possessions to take a 31-10 halftime lead. Miami won 38-24.

Marino's greatness that night was more quality than quantity. He completed only 14 of 27, but for 270 yards and three TDs.

Yet after that night alone, Marino would have had my first-ballot Hall of Fame vote. There has never been anything quite like him, ring or no ring.

But could Walsh have harnessed Marino? I'll say they could have won one Super Bowl together, no more -- and that's only because I consider Walsh the greatest coach ever.

But Marino would have bucked Walsh's system, too. Like Shula, Walsh probably would have tried, often unsuccessfully, to reconfigure his attack around Marino's gunslinging strengths. Maybe in 1988, Walsh could have persuaded Marino to utilize Roger Craig at his 1,502-yard rushing peak. Maybe Craig could have run for 1,200 and still caught the 76 passes (for 535 yards) he did catch. Maybe Marino could have shaved the 4,434 yards he threw for that season in Miami down to Montana's 2,981 in '88.

Maybe, just once, Walsh could have pulled off that balancing act with Marino and they could have won it all together.

Remember, even as dominant a personality as Jimmy Johnson couldn't overpower Marino's temperament. After winning a national championship at the University of Miami and two Super Bowls in Dallas, Johnson took over the Dolphins in 1997. His biggest shock was that there was a man in South Florida much more powerful than him.

Even Jimmy, who built his championships on run-it-and-play-defense, couldn't charm or browbeat Marino into committing to a balanced attack. In four seasons together, they were 2-3 in the playoffs. Their ill-fated partnership -- with Marino as the de facto managing general partner -- ended with a 62-7 playoff loss in Jacksonville.

Not surprisingly, Marino set career records for attempts, completions, passing yards and TD passes without winning a Super Bowl.

Remember, too, that Montana was as coachable and selfless a superstar as we've ever seen. It was as if Walsh was able to install his incomparable football intellect in Montana's mind, which controlled a sensationally underrated athlete.

In 2002, after I'd watched Jeff Garcia bolt from the pocket again and again and outrun defensive backs for first downs, I made the mistake of asking Walsh if Garcia was faster than Montana. Not even close, Walsh said.

"In his first few years, Joe could run 4.4," Walsh said. "Maybe 4.5 with a football under his arm. But he never looked like he was moving that fast."

Young put up gaudier numbers as a starter -- but he still doesn't compare to Montana.

The Cowboys used to say that Montana and his passes moved much faster than you thought they did.

And Montana threw the most catchable ball ever. The bigger the game, the more flawless Montana's decision-making, and the more on-target his passes were. Here was understated brilliance.

Marino and Young were always so much more noticeably spectacular.

Montana was the greatest quarterback ever. No quarterback has ever had a better understanding of how to win while being able to execute under the greatest pressure.

Forgive me, but Steve Young wasn't in Montana's league. Young isn't quite worthy of his first-ballot enshrinement.

Yes, until Michael Vick arrived, Young was the greatest running quarterback ever. The Cowboys teams I covered in the early '90s always considered Young and the 49ers the most dangerous running threat.

Yet they also considered him something of a skittish mistake-maker in crucial moments of season-deciding games. Objective 49ers fans won't forget that the Cowboys beat Young's 49ers in NFC Championship Games in '92 and '93. He did not look like a first-ballot immortal in either of those games.

But in '94, Deion Sanders, the greatest cover corner ever, gave the 49ers' defense a new strut. And in that season's NFC title game, at Candlestick Park, the Cowboys self-destructed. Young's team leaped to a 21-0 first-quarter lead -- all three TDs the result of Cowboy blunders.

A poised and accurate Young played beautifully -- but he was able to play loose and cool from the moment Aikman's early interception was returned for a TD. No "Montana magic" was necessary that day, as the 49ers cruised 38-28.

And the 49ers faced yet another AFC team that didn't belong on the same Super Bowl field with them -- San Diego. Young again was masterful, throwing a Super Bowl record six TD passes in a 49-26 blowout. But that performance against a lousy team elevated him onto the same Hall podium with Marino?

When Deion jumped the following season to the Cowboys, they won the Super Bowl.

Yes, Young holds the highest-ever career passer rating. And yes, he won two MVPs. On stats alone, several ESPN commentators argued last week they would have taken Young over Montana.

Over the state of Montana, yes.

But over Joe? Heavens, no.

Give me Montana over Marino, Elway and certainly Young.

[rdsknbill]

I agree with his analysis of Young. I don't think that he was worthy of first ballot.

He was good, but early in his career he was terrible with the Bucs

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by rdsknbill

I agree with his analysis of Young. I don't think that he was worthy of first ballot.

He was good, but early in his career he was terrible with the Bucs

That was two seasons. 5 games in the first, 14 in the second.

He ended up as being the highest rated passer ever, 6 years as being rated over 100...just cause it took him a little while to get ahold of things doesn't mean he's not first ballot worthy.

[flyingtiger1013]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

That was two seasons. 5 games in the first, 14 in the second.

He ended up as being the highest rated passer ever, 6 years as being rated over 100...just cause it took him a little while to get ahold of things doesn't mean he's not first ballot worthy.

I agree. Plus, who the hell were his receivers in Tampa?

[nickfox45]

i also find Skip Bayless nearly un-readable. it seems he has a problem with almost everything/everyone. i just have a problem with HIM!:puke:

[Thiebear]

Skip Bayless and his hall of the very good...

idiot..

[BIGGS_DADDY]

He sure as hell should not have beaten Art Monk to the hall.

[jrockster21]

I can't watch Cold Pizza because he's on that show. He has the most inane comments and his analysis is so off the mark its painful to watch. Woody Paige isn't much better, but at least he is entertaining and has some sports knowledge. Plus, I think he's a skins fan!

[Predicto]

I could not disagree more with this guy.

I live out here in San Francisco, but I am a Redskins fan, so I think I am pretty unbiased on this issue. I watched both Montana and Young play in a ton of games.

Young was better.

Young was the best player I have ever seen.

Montan gets credit for so many things that he had nothing to do with. Bill Walsh's new West Coast system, which no one had any idea how to defend. Talent up the wazoo all over that team, and an awesome defense led by the murderous Ronnie Lott. An owner who was willing to spend like crazy to keep the team together. Montana was great, but he gets way too much credit.

By the time Young took over, people had figured out how to defendt the West Coast offense. His offensive lines sucked, truly sucked, and there were defenders in the backfield all the time as soon as the ball was snapped. Yet he still led the league in passing year after year, while being the best scrambler in the game. He made something out of nothing, time and time again. People don't want to give him credit because they feel that this will somehow diminish the Montana aura or something, but that is nonsense.

By the way, the reason that Young "only" won one ring might have to with the other teams in the league, don't you think? The 1991 Redskins, who were a steamroller. The early-mid 90s Dallas dynasty, with one of the best collections of talent ever assembled. Whatever.

Young was the best I ever saw. That's all I know.

[TheSteve]

Marino was the best, Predicto.

Seriously, Marino was the greatest pure passer ever in the NFL. He might not have had the mobility, but he was the best passer.

I do agree with you on the presumption that Young is not overrated. And he deserves to be in Canton just as much as Montana, who I think people of the 80's era have blown his baloon larger than life. He's a great QB, but he had a great team and was in the perfect system. I don't get why it is blasphemy to suggest that other Quarterbacks could have been better.

I think the 90's might have been the best decade for QBs. You had Montana in his last years, Marino, Young, Aikman. I miss watching those signal callers. The QB's of today don't compare. Manning is a great QB and maybe one day he will but he isn't anything compared to them yet.

[Predicto]

Marino may have been the best pure passer, but when you add in the running ability and the toughness, Young was the better overall quarterback. That is not a knock on Marino.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Predicto

I could not disagree more with this guy.

I live out here in San Francisco, but I am a Redskins fan, so I think I am pretty unbiased on this issue. I watched both Montana and Young play in a ton of games.

Young was better.

You will definitely be in the minority on this one.

Young is deserving of a first ballot HOF, but he is not better then Joe Montana, probably the greatest QB to ever play the game.

Young had great talent around him, and he had a MUCH better defense. He also had the luxury of playing with Rice for his whole career, something Montana did not.

BTW, the one stat which means more then anything else to me is SB wins. . .

Montana has 4 wins, Young has one. Simple as that.

[TheSteve]

Considering Marino took numerous hits year after year with the one dimensional attack the Dolphins had and played almost every game of his 17 year career, I don't think you can question Marino's toughness. Is Young tougher just because he could run?

Either way, I'd give anything for either of them to be starting for Washington right now.

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by chomerics

You will definitely be in the minority on this one.

Young is deserving of a first ballot HOF, but he is not better then Joe Montana, probably the greatest QB to ever play the game.

Young had great talent around him, and he had a MUCH better defense. He also had the luxury of playing with Rice for his whole career, something Montana did not.

BTW, the one stat which means more then anything else to me is SB wins. . .

Montana has 4 wins, Young has one. Simple as that.

I think the Super Bowl argument is a cop-out unless you've already discussed everything else extensively and it has still come out in question. It's not like Montana was playing with average WR's;With the exception of McDuffie who was still not that great; ala Marino.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by TheSteve

Marino was the best, Predicto.

Seriously, Marino was the greatest pure passer ever in the NFL. He might not have had the mobility, but he was the best passer.

I do agree with you on the presumption that Young is not overrated. And he deserves to be in Canton just as much as Montana, who I think people of the 80's era have blown his baloon larger than life. He's a great QB, but he had a great team and was in the perfect system. I don't get why it is blasphemy to suggest that other Quarterbacks could have been better.

I think the 90's might have been the best decade for QBs. You had Montana in his last years, Marino, Young, Aikman. I miss watching those signal callers. The QB's of today don't compare. Manning is a great QB and maybe one day he will but he isn't anything compared to them yet.

:rotflmao:

Just like Payton Manning is the best today :rotflmao:

Football is a T-E-A-M sport. Why did Miami never win a SB???? BECAUSE of Marino!!!! He was the absolute WORST team QB I've ever watched, and I saw a whole lot of his games. He was a stat machine, but stats don't win championships, players who put the team first do.

The fact that Marino not only NEVER won a SB, but he nevert made it back after his second year speaks VOLUMES about his team.

I also don't want to hear the RB excuse either. . . otherwise I'll have to point you to here

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=57

Myth: Dan Marino had no defense.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino played 17 seasons in the NFL. Twice, he had the luxury of playing with the league’s No. 1 scoring defense: his rookie year of 1983 (15.6 points per game), and again in 1998 (16.6 points per game). That’s a pretty enviable ratio in a league that had 28 and then 30 teams in Marino’s playing days.

Consider this: Terry Bradshaw played 14 seasons in Pittsburgh and won four Super Bowls. The famed Steel Curtain defense that he played with led the league in scoring just twice in those 14 years. Of Bradshaw's four title teams, only one boasted the league's best scoring defense.

In Marino’s record-setting 1984 season, the Dolphins had the No. 1 scoring offense in football and the No. 6 scoring defense (18.6 points per game). The 1990 Dolphins, meanwhile, boasted the league’s No. 4 scoring defense, surrendering just 15.1 points per game.

There’s no doubt Marino played with some poor defenses in his day, but that’s the price of playing in the league 17 years. But the Cold, Hard Football Facts show that he also played with several defenses more than strong enough to win Super Bowls.

Myth: Marino had no running game.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino joined Miami at a time when it had a reputation of being the best ground team in football. In fact, the year before Marino was drafted, the Dolphins made it all the way to the Super Bowl on the strength of a great running game and great defense.

In Marino’s rookie year, 1983, the Dolphins racked up 2,150 yards on the ground. In 1984, Marino set single-season records with 48 touchdowns and 5,084 yards passing. The Dolphins still managed 1,918 rushing yards and averaged 4.0 yards per carry.

It would be disingenuous to say that the Dolphins were a great running team later in Marino’s career. Of course, much of that can be attributed to too few rushing attempts and a misguided faith placed in Marino’s arm.

But consider this: The New England Patriots went 17-2 and won the Super Bowl last year while averaging a woeful 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. The Dolphins averaged more than 3.4 yards per rushing attempt 14 times in Marino’s 17 seasons. In other words, Marino's Dolphins ran the ball more than well enough to win Super Bowls.

Myth: Marino had to carry the Dolphins himself.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Few quarterbacks in NFL history have been surrounded by more talent than Marino.

In his 17-year career, Marino played with 55 players named to the Pro Bowl. Marino himself was named a Pro Bowler nine times. That’s a remarkable 64 Pro Bowl players, or nearly four for every season Marino spent in the NFL. Four times in Marino’s career, the Dolphins boasted five or more Pro Bowl players in a single season. Compare that with New England’s two Super Bowl teams, which had a total of just five Pro Bowl players.

Marino also had the rare luxury of joining a team that had played in the Super Bowl the year before he arrived. He also played most of his career for the winningest coach in NFL history, Don Shula.

Shula has quite a resume. Working with quarterbacks Bob Griese, Earl Morrall and Johnny Unitas, he led the Colts and Dolphins to five Super Bowls in 15 years. Over the next 13 seasons, working with Marino, he appeared in just one more Super Bowl. He lost.

If any quarterback in NFL history walked into an ideal situation in which to win a Super Bowl, it was Dan Marino.

Myth: Marino was a big-game quarterback.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Want to know the real reason why Marino never won a Super Bowl? Sadly, the answer sits with Dan Marino himself.

Simply put, Marino did not elevate his game in the playoffs. In fact, his played dropped off quite noticeably. Marino has a career regular season passer rating of 86.4. His postseason passer rating was just 77.1. He played in 18 playoff games, and won just eight of them.

In his one Super Bowl appearance (a 38-16 loss to the 49ers in Super Bowl XIX), Marino completed 29 of 50 passes for 318 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. It adds up to a weak 66.9 passer rating. One wonders what might have happened had his two Super Bowl drives that ended in interceptions ended in touchdowns instead.

Remember that 1998 Miami team that had the best defense in football? It made the playoffs, but Marino failed to hold up his end of the bargain. The season ended in the second round of the playoffs, with Marino coughing up two interceptions against Denver and posting a passer rating of just 65.5. Yet another opportunity for Marino to win a Super Bowl tossed into the hands of an opposing defender.

In fact, Marino threw at least one interception in 13 of his 18 career playoff games. He threw two or more interceptions 10 times. The Dolphins went just 1-9 in those 10 Marino multi-interception playoff games.

So, DollFans, if you're looking for a reason why Miami never won a Super Bowl in the 1980s or 90s, look no further than the faded Dan Marino poster still taped to the ceiling over your bed.

[atloldskin]

Steve Young deserves to be in the Hall on my first ballot, but Joe was a better QB IMO.

[TheSteve]

Get lost, Chomerics.

Marino is still my favorite QB of all time.

Besides, the Patriots won SB's with their watered down Offense because they had the Defense that could keep them close. So to assume that just because of Patriots won the SB with a 3.4YPC that the Dolphins could do it because theirs was higher is fallacy. The Dolphins put it all on Marino's shoulders to win every year, and a good team is going to beat one guy passing to win every time.

[Predicto]

Super Bowl wins show what team is the best. They do not show what player is the best, even the quarterback.

Terry Bradshaw was a mediocrity who is in the HoF solely because he was on a dominant Steelers team that won 4 Super Bowls for him. Dan Marino (or if you prefer, Sonny Jurgensen) never won a Super Bowl. You tell me who was better.

The 49ers under Young lacked two things that they had under Montana: an great offensive line and a new offensive system that the league did not yet understand. Walsh is the true greatness behind the 1980s 49ers, not Montana.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Chom, interesting read. I don't think you could get away with calling Marino the worst ever though...maybe in your uh...state of mind... but i think the rest will disagree.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by TheSteve

I think the Super Bowl argument is a cop-out unless you've already discussed everything else extensively and it has still come out in question. It's not like Montana was playing with average WR's;With the exception of McDuffie who was still not that great; ala Marino.

Read the above post debunking the "Marino Myth" with facts.

Just because he could throw the ball everywhere, does not make him a great QB.

Here is an example of why I think like I do.

In 97', the Pats were playing the Dolphins in the playoffs. They just beat the Dolphins the week before to put the playoff game in Foxboro. It's in the fourth quarter of a tight game, and Marino is at the helm. He audibles the call due to the D-alignment, and you notice Todd Collins, the Pats MLB, put his arm back behind him letting people know the slant is coming. Marino throws the ball directly to Collins who runs the pick back for a TD. . . game over.

Collins played for Miami in 95' and Marino STILL had the same damn audible calls. :laugh: The Pats KNEW what was coming because Marino did NOT do his homework, and was LAZY!!!!

It is a simple example of Marino not putting in the extra time to work on details. He has a career 8-10 record in the playoffs. . .

Put it this way. Tom Brady, in his 4th year as QB, already has MORE playoff wins then Marino did in his entire career. Who would you rather have? I'll take the guy who wins, not the egotistical maniac who cares about stats more then winning. Besides, just tell Marino that he never one the SB, you're going to be in for 5 minutes of classic unintentional comedy:)

He's a great PASSER, but a horrible LEADER. You take out Marino and put in Woodley (I think that was the name of the previous QB) they win atleast 1 SB. Hell, they made it to the SB the year before Marino was drafted with Woodley and if not for a 4th down run by Riggo, they may have won the SB.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

Chom, interesting read. I don't think you could get away with calling Marino the worst ever though...maybe in your uh...state of mind... but i think the rest will disagree.

I differentiate between a QB and a passer. The worst ever was just a phrase I used to emphasize my point.

[TheSteve]

No Chom, the Dolphins never won anything because they were a one-dimensional team. Blame that on Marino if you want, but that does not take away from his abilities as a QB. If your team is one dimensional you just have to do what you can, and Marino did a hell of a job with a one dimensional passing attack.

I would take Marino over Brady any day and every day by the way. It's no suprise you're another AFC Eastern Division Dolphins rival that resented Marino because he tried to win it all by himself. Yes, he could have been a more humble QB, but the the truly greats always had that confidence and ****yness that they could do it themselves. Fortunantly for the haters that take intense pleasure is knocking Marino's achievments and lack of Super bowl wins, Marino never won the big one.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Chom makes a good argument. Damn. I'll give credit when credit is due.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by TheSteve

The Dolphins put it all on Marino's shoulders to win every year, and a good team is going to beat one guy passing to win every time.

The Dolphins didn't put it on Marino's shoulders, MARINO did. They had an outrageous pass-run ratio because of Marino's personality.

Can one guy win a championship? No, but when you have great teams, there is absolutely no excuse to have a loosing playoff record (8-10) . . . that is unless your adept at choking (think Payton Manning). Marino falls into this catagory.

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by chomerics

He's a great PASSER, but a horrible LEADER. You take out Marino and put in Woodley (I think that was the name of the previous QB) they win atleast 1 SB. Hell, they made it to the SB the year before Marino was drafted with Woodley and if not for a 4th down run by Riggo, they may have won the SB.

Please sit down and shut up. Are you seriously making excuses for Woodley after debunking so called 'excuses' for Marino? Nice try at revisionist history. The Redskins woulda coulda shoulda beat St. Louis if they hadn't bobbled the snap too in '99. Hypothetical past is irrelevant when discussing realities.

And yes, Marino was such a HORRIBLE leader that he demanded perfection from his teammates and went nuts when he didn't get it. Sorry, but I have no sympathies for grown men who sulk because their QB is mad at them for MESSING UP.