US News & World Report: Bush Bashing Fizzles.......

[Blackwolf]

Bang: you're a Libertarian, aren't ya?

[Bang]

I'm a registered independant. I guess I follow Libertarian ideals, but i don't follow all of them. I see merit on the right, I agree in personal responsibility being something that should be expected from every American. i

I also see merit on the left, I think compassion is a good thing, I think social consciousness is a good thing.

I think we should think while we listen, and listen while we think.

I'm one of these newfangled "centrist" fellas, I guess.

More than anything, I am sickened by the extremes that have taken over our thinking. I am disgusted by the ease in which we have been divided, and the ease we display in sinking to the lower levels among ourselves.

It sickens me to see the lack of human respect that has been fostered into us by our 'leaders' and their propaganda machines.

I'd like it to change. As usual when i go on one of these posts, i plead for balance. And to me, balance comes from the ability to listen. The other side might not always have a point, and sometimes one side is right to say no, we dont believe that, but at least listen with the intent of trying to understand. We may not always agree, but it won't be so damned poisonous anymore.

Respect each other.

~Bang

[Guest Gichin13]

Bang those were a couple great points.

I for one get so frustrated and fed up because EVERYBODY LIES! And then people on either side of the aisle eat that spoon fed horse manure up as fact. It makes me sick on both sides of the fence.

[Predicto]

Bang, that was the best couple of posts I have read in a long time, maybe ever.

I know that I have trouble seeing beyond my liberal goggles sometimes. It's something that I have to work on.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Bang

I'm a registered independant. I guess I follow Libertarian ideals, but i don't follow all of them. I see merit on the right, I agree in personal responsibility being something that should be expected from every American. i

I also see merit on the left, I think compassion is a good thing, I think social consciousness is a good thing.

I think we should think while we listen, and listen while we think.

I'm one of these newfangled "centrist" fellas, I guess.

More than anything, I am sickened by the extremes that have taken over our thinking. I am disgusted by the ease in which we have been divided, and the ease we display in sinking to the lower levels among ourselves.

It sickens me to see the lack of human respect that has been fostered into us by our 'leaders' and their propaganda machines.

I'd like it to change. As usual when i go on one of these posts, i plead for balance. And to me, balance comes from the ability to listen. The other side might not always have a point, and sometimes one side is right to say no, we dont believe that, but at least listen with the intent of trying to understand. We may not always agree, but it won't be so damned poisonous anymore.

Respect each other.

~Bang

Bang, two of the best posts I've read here in a long time.

You mention the term "newfangled centrist", and personally, I think it is the future of our country. I've watched both parties do awful things, but in my lifetime, I have NEVER seen an administration so completely one sided, and corrupt. I USED to be a conservative, but I am no longer. I will still vote for a conservative, but from what I've seen out of the RNC, they'd really have to have a strong canidate with moderate views (think Powell of McCain) to get my vote. Similarly on the left, I would not vote for a canidate who was for government expansion of something like welfare.

I think people should vote for the person who best represents them. This is the way it should be and it is the way it USED to be, before the neo-conservatives polarized this nation. I could go into a 10 page diatribe on how and why the country is completely polarized, but I will save the rest of ES the rant

[Cskin]

Actually, they have been substantiated, and there is now evidence that he did in fact lie to the American people.

Huh??? WTF???? I realize I've been working hard... but I didn't realize I was working so hard that I failed to notice the hoopla surrounding the impeachment hearings and the nearly unanimous cry of ouster of Bush from the presidency by the American people. :doh:

The Left want Bush gone so bad that even a sliver of evidence to your looney theory would have the Liberals on every TV show demanding impeachement. Are you trying to tell me that CBS news, of Memogate fame, wouldn't have a Primetime special detailing the evidence of Bush's lies if there were indeed evidence of this misdeed? Teddy "shotglass" Kennedy and the rest of his ilk would be standing in front of a microphone with the backdrop of the US capitol demanding his ouster if there were indeed evidence of his lies.

The fact is..... the left knows they have nothing but conjecture and wishful thinking. Furthermore, their tactic is to dismiss and block everything Bush tries to do because of their elitiest attitude that it's their office and anyone else sitting in it other than a democrat is illegitimate.

You keep promoting that blind faith Cho... and keep watching the rest of the country continue to vote your ilk out of office.

[Larry]

Originally posted by Cskin

Furthermore, their tactic is to dismiss and block everything Bush tries to do because of their elitiest attitude that it's their office and anyone else sitting in it other than a democrat is illegitimate.

(Remembering when the GOP took over Congress after two years of Clinton. Their first priority was the repeal of "Clinton's Crime Bill". (A grab-bag collection of things, the centerpiece of which was a (unfunded) program that would "put 100K cops on the street".)

The GOPs stated reason for repealing this bill (which the GOP said was a rotten bill, but which the voters approved of) was that there was an election comming up in only two years, and the GOP didn't want Clinton to have one single accomplishment of his administration that he could point to.

So plese, tell me again about how the Democrats invented the tactic of opposing an incumbent President simply to be contrairy.

[Predicto]

Originally posted by Cskin

Huh??? WTF???? I realize I've been working hard... but I didn't realize I was working so hard that I failed to notice the hoopla surrounding the impeachment hearings and the nearly unanimous cry of ouster of Bush from the presidency by the American people. :doh:

The Left want Bush gone so bad that even a sliver of evidence to your looney theory would have the Liberals on every TV show demanding impeachement. Are you trying to tell me that CBS news, of Memogate fame, wouldn't have a Primetime special detailing the evidence of Bush's lies if there were indeed evidence of this misdeed? Teddy "shotglass" Kennedy and the rest of his ilk would be standing in front of a microphone with the backdrop of the US capitol demanding his ouster if there were indeed evidence of his lies.

The fact is..... the left knows they have nothing but conjecture and wishful thinking. Furthermore, their tactic is to dismiss and block everything Bush tries to do because of their elitiest attitude that it's their office and anyone else sitting in it other than a democrat is illegitimate.

You keep promoting that blind faith Cho... and keep watching the rest of the country continue to vote your ilk out of office.

Sadly, Bang, I don't think your posts sank in very far.

[Baculus]

There is a growing movement regarding the impeachment of Bush. All I had to do was do a google for "impeach Bush," and here is one website:

http://www.impeachbush.tv/

This page also discusses something that many people are aware of, which is the growing congressional movement to have the Downing Street Memo investigated to see if the Bush administration did, in fact, deceive the American public. Have you even read this document, and the more important subsequent document that details conversations and such?

This is a site I have read a few tines:

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/

Now, even though you may not hear it on the main stream media, these congressmen are quietly going about their business, looking into the matter related to the Downing Street Memo. This same mainstream media didn't even cover the memo, so why would they discuss any impeachment movement? Just because, CSkin, you didn't hear about something on the TV does not mean it doesn't exist.

The Left want Bush gone so bad that even a sliver of evidence to your looney theory would have the Liberals on every TV show demanding impeachement. Are you trying to tell me that CBS news, of Memogate fame, wouldn't have a Primetime special detailing the evidence of Bush's lies if there were indeed evidence of this misdeed? Teddy "shotglass" Kennedy and the rest of his ilk would be standing in front of a microphone with the backdrop of the US capitol demanding his ouster if there were indeed evidence of his lies.

The fact is..... the left knows they have nothing but conjecture and wishful thinking. Furthermore, their tactic is to dismiss and block everything Bush tries to do because of their elitiest attitude that it's their office and anyone else sitting in it other than a democrat is illegitimate.

Why is everything "the Left"? You do know that there is more then your Left Wing /Right Wing polarized version of America, right? And you know there are those on the so-called Right that are also not happy with Bush? And that everyone who is critical, or dislikes Bush, is not just a mere Lefty?

Not only that, but I think it's, well, funny, that you can talk about "Democrat elitism," coming from a supporter of Bush, a member of an elite family, an elite organization, and a party that supports...well, elites. Now, don't get me wrong, there are many "elites" in the Democrat party, they can be just as bad, but I think you're a bit off base to be throwing this "elite" label around, especially if you are a Bush supporter. The modern Republican party isn't just so small grassroots party - they ARE part of the Elite system, after all. And that includes Bush.

If you want grassroots, vote for one of the small, third-party groups, such as the Libertarians. That's what I do.

[Baculus]

I think that is a good post, Bang. A very good one.

Of course, when I brought up some rather sensitive subjects, such as the events surrounding 9-11, you were one of the people that immediately wanted to dismiss my claims, even if they had merit (which most people do not even take a glance to see if they do). :-)

I guess your post only applies so far, eh? Hah.

When I post about subjects such as the Iraqi war, the government's 9-11 story, voter fraud, etc., all I want people to do is examine these issues with their own mind, regardless of their party, what the think about me, or how they may have felt in the past about this issue. I am an investigative kind of guy, and there is a certain point when you read the same thing, over and over again, from different sources, and you start thinking to yourself, "Hmm, maybe this does have merit."

As I always say, we often want to turn a blind eye and a dear ear to events, especially if its our favorite party or President that is involved.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by footballhenry

not again chom. how are the accusations of Bush lying substantiated??? seriously, weve been through this over and over.

In his mind they are, and that's all that matters to him.

[Baculus]

not again chom. how are the accusations of Bush lying substantiated??? seriously, weve been through this over and over.

Hmm, while we are on this subject: A short little film. (It has audio, so it may not be work safe.)

http://www.bushflash.com/right.html

I haven't see ya around much, Mike. I hope all is well with you.

[Bang]

Originally posted by Baculus

I think that is a good post, Bang. A very good one.

Of course, when I brought up some rather sensitive subjects, such as the events surrounding 9-11, you were one of the people that immediately wanted to dismiss my claims, even if they had merit (which most people do not even take a glance to see if they do). :-)

I guess your post only applies so far, eh? Hah.

When I post about subjects such as the Iraqi war, the government's 9-11 story, voter fraud, etc., all I want people to do is examine these issues with their own mind, regardless of their party, what the think about me, or how they may have felt in the past about this issue. I am an investigative kind of guy, and there is a certain point when you read the same thing, over and over again, from different sources, and you start thinking to yourself, "Hmm, maybe this does have merit."

As I always say, we often want to turn a blind eye and a dear ear to events, especially if its our favorite party or President that is involved.

I don't have a favorite party. I hate them both equally. I'm not a Bush supporter. I didn't vote for him. I voted for the same guy you most likely did. I do support the war.

The difference with me on that particular issue is I think the war is justified. I did look at the 9/11 conspiracy stuff, long before you brought it to that table, in fact. It's been discussed in here before.

I addressed it in a post once when you and I last discussed it. I think there is a possibility that there may have been a missile at the pentagon, (NOT fired by us) except for the hundreds of folks who saw a plane, I explained about a report I saw nearly ten years ago in which they had concerns over some apartment space over there in Crystal City that was being used for spying... but I don't believe we flew planes into our own buildings and killed 3500 people so we could start a war.

I believe the groups that have claimed responsibility for it are indeed responsible, and it is high time we kick their asses for it. It's a fight these groups have been spoiling for for decades. I've explained how we have tried for years to do things the peaceful way, through UN sanctions, negotiation with hostage takers, embargoes, etc. nothing ever stopped any of it.

In the post in this thread I said right from the outset as I've always said, i believe this war is a necessary thing, and i kept it out of my points. The things I talked about were things that don't need shadowy conspiracy theories to see.. He promised us an energy plan, and hooray, it means we get to fork over 20 billion or so in tax cuts to the oil companies.

The crux of my point was to listen and be civil, to stop running off at the extremes and acting like kids mocking someone who might have another idea.

To my knowledge, in my debates with you, Bac, I never mocked you. I may have expressed disbelief at times, but i keep on the topic, and I try to practice what I preached.

~Bang

[Baculus]

So you know, Bang, the last part of that post wasn't directed personally at you, but moreso along the lines of what you were stating in your own post. And no, you never mocked me, though I felt you didn't give some of the data I had posted in that particular thread a fair shake before dismissing it.

But hey, that is why we have discussions, right? :-)

(By the way, I am not fully convinced a missile hit the Pentagon, but there are many idiosyncrasies in the official story. It is funny, though, that Rumsfeld was the first person that said a missile struck the Pentagon. And folks did see something, though many thought they saw a smaller plane, too.)

[Cskin]

I read Bang's post, and he brings up some great points. The difference is in the details.

The Democrats oppose everything Bush trys to accomplish because they believe he should never have been POTUS. They call him selected... or illegitimate... or some other term to dismiss him. The fact is... had Gore just won his home state he'd been POTUS and Bush would have disappeared only to appear in funny little internet cartoons.

As for the attack on Clinton... aren't you forgetting something? Say.... .the fact that he actually did lie under oath about the sex and also tried to obstruct the investigation. Those are impeacheable offenses. Was the attacks particular vitrolic... absolutely. Could the country have focused on more important things? Absolutely!!!

I continually focus on the "LEFT" because it is their views and policies that continue to threaten this country. I won't be convinced that the continued decay of today's society, from our kids... to politicians... to our CEOs.... is the direct result of the "anything goes" mentality coupled with the failure to accept personal responsibility or concequences for one's actions. It's the common thread through which practicioners of Liberalism weave every train of thought and opinion.

Look no further than the foolishness created by political correctness... and the absurd measures taken to create diversity.... both left wing mantras... when trying to understand why we can't screen middle eastern travelers for terrorism threats and instead... we search every 80 year woman and every other newborn for bombs. :doh:

Liberalism... the enemy within.

[Cskin]

Why is everything "the Left"? You do know that there is more then your Left Wing /Right Wing polarized version of America, right? And you know there are those on the so-called Right that are also not happy with Bush? And that everyone who is critical, or dislikes Bush, is not just a mere Lefty?

I realize the right wing, the religious right if you will, is just as misguided and frought with kooks as the left. I guess when I look at the whole spectrum... I can't help but gravitate torward the group who has done more to cripple this country and create a society of people completely satisfied to stand in a line with their hands out and their mouths open and believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that it's the federal govts. job to feed... clothe.... shelter... and employ them.

Conversely, I'm equally startled by the realization that the Bush Administration is made up of "good ole' boys" who own big shiny desks and hard to fathom bank accounts. Additionally, I cringe at the thought of a Transportation Bill and Energy bill riddled with pork barrel spending that further bankrupts our children's children and proposed from all account by drunken sailor-like REPUBLICANS trying to cash in on the power pendulum with the hopes of remaining in power by bringing home the pork to their consitutuents.

Our solution, one I sincerely hope finds it's way into the common American's conscience in my lifetime.... is the realization that this country's govt. has been hijacked by extremeists.... radical polticians who could care less about America and it's citizenry and more about the special interest groups, their bank accounts and retirement funds, and the power they will hold onto until death do they part. :doh:

I'm a constitutionalist.... wishing for a govt. envisioned by the founding fathers and governed by the people and for the people. Additionally... I'm a conservative... so there isn't a chance in hell I'm voting for a party who never saw a tax they didn't like.

[Joe Sick]

Ronnie Raygun and Iran-Contra pretty much "delegitimized" his own own administration.

Newest Bush bash: this is his 50th vacation, and he has spent over 20% of his presidency on vacation. Let's hope he doesn't get any important PDBs while he's cutting brush.

[Baculus]

One note, Cskin - we always have to be careful about using labels such as Liberalism and Conservatism. Classical Liberalism is a part of American fabric, from its influence in the framing of the Consitution, private property ownership, free speech, individual rights, and Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. If you're a constitutionalist, you adhere to some of the classic tenets of liberalism.

NeoLiberalism, exemplified by Clinton and even Blair, is the large-government strain that many associate with the modern Left. Interestingly, NeoLiberalism shares traits with NeoConservativism, which isn't surprising, since some NeoCons were former NeoLibs. And one of the shared traits is the seeming love for Big Government, which has often increased at the greatest pace under Republicans, government intervention to suite their needs, and foreign adventurism. Some of the elements you dislike of the NeoLibs, in some degrees, are also the same as the NeoCons. Being taxed at a higher rate isn't any better then getting a "tax break," then having to pay thousands of dollars in the long-term because of the deficit spending caused by that tax break. It's exactly the same in the end: money out of your pocket.

Thus, the threat isn't just from the New Left, but also from the New Right. And in this case, the New Right has the upper hand.

Liberalism isn't the enemy within. That's like chewing off your own leg to spite yourself. What's the enemy within are bad ideas, poor judgement, and efforts to control, no matter the label attached to it. It's just my opinion that with less government fumbling, perhaps we can reduce and parse out those bad ideas. At least, that is my honest thoughts on it, in a simplified manner.

[BlueTalon]

Nice post, Bac!

[BlueTalon]

Originally posted by Cskin

I'm a constitutionalist.... wishing for a govt. envisioned by the founding fathers and governed by the people and for the people. Additionally... I'm a conservative... so there isn't a chance in hell I'm voting for a party who never saw a tax they didn't like.

I feel your pain, Cskin. I'm a constitutionalist and conservative also. My objections to things like abortion (this is NOT a hijack) are largely grounded in the Constitution, but it's a heck of a challenge to get people to understand it.

[Cskin]

Bac... good post again.... thanks for tying the rather acceptable aspects Liberalism to our country's history and "fabric".

Unfortuantely, today's liberalism can't get out of the way in order to see the positives of the ideology of yesteryear. Now it's dominated by narrow minded ****roaches hellbent on forcing the "anything goes" view, funded by ever increasing taxes, and watched over by a bloated power hungry federal govt.

[Bang]

Originally posted by Cskin

I read Bang's post, and he brings up some great points. The difference is in the details.

The Democrats oppose everything Bush trys to accomplish because they believe he should never have been POTUS. They call him selected... or illegitimate... or some other term to dismiss him. The fact is... had Gore just won his home state he'd been POTUS and Bush would have disappeared only to appear in funny little internet cartoons.

As for the attack on Clinton... aren't you forgetting something? Say.... .the fact that he actually did lie under oath about the sex and also tried to obstruct the investigation. Those are impeacheable offenses. Was the attacks particular vitrolic... absolutely. Could the country have focused on more important things? Absolutely!!!

I continually focus on the "LEFT" because it is their views and policies that continue to threaten this country. I won't be convinced that the continued decay of today's society, from our kids... to politicians... to our CEOs.... is the direct result of the "anything goes" mentality coupled with the failure to accept personal responsibility or concequences for one's actions. It's the common thread through which practicioners of Liberalism weave every train of thought and opinion.

Look no further than the foolishness created by political correctness... and the absurd measures taken to create diversity.... both left wing mantras... when trying to understand why we can't screen middle eastern travelers for terrorism threats and instead... we search every 80 year woman and every other newborn for bombs. :doh:

Liberalism... the enemy within.

This is a fine illustration of what I mean.

In regards to the attack on Clinton, no I'm not forgetting anything, in fact, I'm remembering how the investigation went, how long it took, how it ended, how the initial charges being investigated have never been resolved, and how each and every one of us should be ashamed of watching the highest office in this land get dragged thru the mud, no matter who is sitting in the chair. How our leaders , the ultimate hypocrites that they are, stood up and wagged their filthy little fingers and stood out in front of the world and made us all look like a bunch of nanny nanny boo boo children on a playground.

See, in here, you deflect any blame from your side because, as you say, Clinton DID lie under oath about his sexual misconduct.

What you don't mention is the nearly 6 year witch hunt that led up to it. A hunt that started over whitewater, and culminated in a thousand page indictment over a hummer he got from a fat chick.

You don't want to see that the right engaged in a shameful dog attack during Clinton's entire administration, doing everything in their power to discredit him and drag him out.

Whether it was justified ort not, we don't really know, because the charges they started out investigating, the actual criminal charges regarding money laundering, they were casually thrown out the window as soon as some spooge showed up.

And the worst part of all is that they practiced the very same exact tactics you complain the left does.

Which brings me back to one of my original points. It is OUR RESPONSIBILITY to see thru this BS. To be able to say, hey, why is it OK for my side to act irresponsibly, to drag the highest office in the land thru the mud, but it's not OK for them to do it? It shouldn't be OK for ANYONE to do it.

It is up to US to demand our leaders stop acting like overgrown petulant vindictive children when it comes to how they run this country.

Tit for Tat is no way to behave. It's no way to find any solutions to the problems we have,, and to be totally honest, of the really deep problems there are,, energy, race relations, the war,.. i think the most serious problem of ALL is our government's continued slide into this morass of extremes and absolutes. If it continues the way it is, how long until violence happens? I know it seems outrageous, but for some of you in here older than say, 40, haven't you seen a definite shift in just how vicious things have gotten? Even in the days of Ronald Reagan battling Tip O'Neill over every issue, there was civility, there was class and a true desire to do what is ultimately best for the country.

I don't see that anymore. I see struggles for power, not struggles for what is right.

You say the liberal thinking contributes to the decay of society, by pointing out, among other things, CEOs who rape their companies and pillage their employees savings... here's an idea,,, instead of pretending an IDEAL caused these jerks to steal from everyone, how about we lay the blame where it belongs,, like right at THEIR FEET. Stop making excuses for the assholes who do this,, it's THEIR FAULT they did it, simple as that. If a system is set up to be expoilted due to poor planning, ETHICS are what prevent you from exploiting it. HONOR and TRUSTWORTHINESS and INTEGRITY are what causes you to not rob people in the name of corporate greed, NOT a political ideal.

Just because the bank left the door open, you are NOT exonerated from guilt if you waltz in and clean it out.

I don't mind if folks are republicans or democrats, I just urge erveryone to try see the whole side, and even if you don't agree, remember we do all have to live and work together for democracy to work.

~Bang

[Baculus]

Unfortuantely, today's liberalism can't get out of the way in order to see the positives of the ideology of yesteryear. Now it's dominated by narrow minded ****roaches hellbent on forcing the "anything goes" view, funded by ever increasing taxes, and watched over by a bloated power hungry federal govt.

Point taken, CSkin, and I can agree with some of that sentiment.

I am also in agreement with Bang's post - I think these are American issues. Neither of us are born into a political party, and as Ken Kesey used to say, we have to "transcend the BS."

I will also add, there is a reason why there are so many strong critiques of the Right: they are the current party in power, and their actions are the ones that seem most recently seem to be the "strongest.". The party in power is always going to receive the most criticisms - that is to be expected, for good or bad. Not only that, but there seems to be a new, virulent strain of Republicanism that transcends the "old" Republican party. (And one reason why some Republicans have become frustrated with the party.) And that is one reason why civility has been loss - certain power interests are becoming more aggressive, and to them, the stakes are higher. Also, to some, this new aggression is best exemplified by the key issues that are being argued, such as voter fraud, 9-11, intervention in Iraq, among other issues.

In short, power breeds arrogance. And, unfortunately, everyone isn't immune from that. I don't think Bill Clinton was immune from that, and nor do I think Bush is immune from that, either.

It's hard to blame liberals, or even traditional conservatives, for so many problems when they aren't the one that controls the most power, whether it is the presidential administration, the transnational global entities, or the financial systems of the world. And these threats aren't just from the "Right" or Left," but by power brokers whose aims are often beyond any loyalty to this nation, its Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the citizenry.