codeorama Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff I understand and agree, there are some ones in there that really make you wonder if they deserve to be. there should be a better system, I think. Maybe a combination of the ones that are already in the hall and writers. I dunno, but some don't belong. You are right, the system sucks. No one is really impartial, there are problems no matter which way you try to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dg28daman Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Bayless is obnoxious and I hate listening to him on his god awful first and ten or whatever that show is called. He's soo annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 15, 2005 Author Share Posted July 15, 2005 Code who do you think doesn't belong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff Code who do you think doesn't belong? I'm only going to go by players that I actually saw, otherwise it wouldn't be fair IMO... But I've read a ton of good arguments about older players as well, but I don't want to have to go digging up stuff... Kirby Puckett Gaylord Perry Ozzie Smith (who was one of my favorite players for a long time) Don Sutton Dave Winfield Robin Yount Mike Schmidt and possibly Nolan Ryan, but he was really dominant at times, but were the no hitters enough? I wouldn't argue that one too hard, but.... I see it getting worse in the future because of bloated stats because of the small parks, juiced ball, juiced players and poor expansion era pitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Spiff, being the best guy on the Orioles 2 years doesn't really make you a Hall of Famer. You want some borderline guys of late who put up Raffy like numbers, how bout Fred McGriff. EDIT: To throw up another issue with Raffy is steriods. Here's a guy who started bashing home runs like crazy after he turned 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 You wouldn't have Mike Schmidt in the HOF? You are a rough grader, professor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by Predicto You wouldn't have Mike Schmidt in the HOF? You are a rough grader, professor. I know, that's a very close one, I wouldn't be out picketing over him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by ThatGuy Spiff, being the best guy on the Orioles 2 years doesn't really make you a Hall of Famer. You want some borderline guys of late who put up Raffy like numbers, how bout Fred McGriff. EDIT: To throw up another issue with Raffy is steriods. Here's a guy who started bashing home runs like crazy after he turned 30. it was just an example...if you want to make a blanket statement about him NEVER being the best on teams, well then that statement is false. Any of the O's mid 90's teams that he was on, he was the main threat in the lineup. Ripken's power had fallen off and wasn't really feared. The whole "was never the best on his team" argument was a weak one. By that standard is Lou Gehrig not a Hall of Famer because he was in Babe Ruth's shadow? How about Don Drysdale not being a Hall of Famer because he was on the same pitching staff with Koufax? What about Willie McCovey playing with Willie Mays? Billy Williams and Ernie Banks? Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron? I could go on with more, I'm sure. Palmeiro had seasons of 26, 27 and 39 homers before he turned 30. Baseball players typically reach their prime in ages if 28-33. If you don't believe me, look at what Andruw Jones has done this year. Hank Aaron had seasons of 44, 38, 47, 34, 40 and 20 homers between ages 35 and 40. Must have been the roids, huh? You can blame Raffy's so called power surge after age 30 on steroids, but if you take a look at his durability, his body hasn't fallen apart like juicers Canseco, McGwire, Giambi and now Bonds. AAAAAAAND fred mcgriff with 493 homers and 2490 no gold gloves falls pretty short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by codeorama I'm only going to go by players that I actually saw, otherwise it wouldn't be fair IMO... But I've read a ton of good arguments about older players as well, but I don't want to have to go digging up stuff... Kirby Puckett Gaylord Perry Ozzie Smith (who was one of my favorite players for a long time) Don Sutton Dave Winfield Robin Yount Mike Schmidt and possibly Nolan Ryan, but he was really dominant at times, but were the no hitters enough? I wouldn't argue that one too hard, but.... I see it getting worse in the future because of bloated stats because of the small parks, juiced ball, juiced players and poor expansion era pitching. You're older than I am, I haven't seen some of these guys play, but I'll agree on Puckett. He got the nod because his career was cut short, he was beloved by everyone, etc. Ozzie played great defense, had some good seasons with the bat. Something needs to be said for guys that are good with the glove and Ozzie was far beyond good. I'm not saying guys that hit .220 but are spectacular defenders should be admitted, but he was respectable with the bat. I'd let him in. Winfield and Sutton and Yount don't make it for me, either. However, it seems like a lot of the 80's stars are getting the shaft. Remember when Ryne Sandberg and Andre Dawson were playing and people kept saying they were locks for the hall? Dawson probably won't get in and it took Sandberg two tries. I think Schmidt should be in. 500+ homers and 10 + gold gloves. Unspectacular batting average and strikeout machine though. And Ryan...his won loss percentage isn't that great and never won a Cy Young...but he was just incredible, I mean...to overpower people for that long...he gets in. no one will throw 7 no hitters or strike out 5,714 batters. Roger Clemens gets the nod over him for best right handed pitcher over the past 35 years though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 I used to like Skip Bayless back in the 90s. He wrote a couple books and pitched in on a couple more trashing the Cowboys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by Mufumonk You can make the same case against the almighty Cal Ripken. He was by far and away the most overrated player in the history of sports. Yet, he'll make the Hall solely because of the streak. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: Yea, he had the streak, and... Gold gloves: 2 All Star games: 19 (Though the validity of the vote can be off) Rookie of the year Silver Slugger Awards: 8! MVP Awards: 2! 3000 hits! 400+ Homers 2 All Star MVP Awards 2 Time TSN Player of the year. Lou Gherig Award Roberto Clemente Award HOF Standards: Batting - 58.3 (30) (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Batting - 236.0 (24) (Likely HOFer > 100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by TheDoyler23 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: Yea, he had the streak, and... Gold gloves: 2 All Star games: 19 (Though the validity of the vote can be off) Rookie of the year Silver Slugger Awards: 8! MVP Awards: 2! 3000 hits! 400+ Homers 2 All Star MVP Awards 2 Time TSN Player of the year. Lou Gherig Award Roberto Clemente Award HOF Standards: Batting - 58.3 (30) (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Batting - 236.0 (24) (Likely HOFer > 100) Should have had more gold gloves, too. the fact that he made 3 errors over the course of an entire season and set the then record for errorless streak by a shortstop...and the Gold glove that year went to Ozzie Guillen who made like 12 or 13 errors...that was a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 1.Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball? Probably not, but he was always one of the top 3 1b year in and year out. 2. Was he the best player on his team? Yes/No. He was probably on equal footing overall with Juan Gone and Pudge in Texas as well as Cal in Baltimore. 3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? Top 3 in an era of outstanding 1b. (Biggio, Mac, Thomas, etc) 4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races? Yes, but has middle of the road postseason stats. 5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime? Yes. 6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame? almost 600 homers (power) and 3k hits. (contact) yes. 7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame? yes 8/10 "similiar batters" from baseball-reference.com are HOF with the ommisions of Fred McGriff and Andre Dawson, both borderline HOF. 8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? Yes. 9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics? Hitters park in Tx, somewhat of a hitters park in Baltimore. 10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame? Besides Yankees ****ing about "Donnie Baseball," yes. 11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close? Several MVP type of seasons, recieving top 10 consideration 10 times, and was the 1999 The Sporting News player of the year. 12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame? 4 AS apps in the era of dominant 1b. Not bad, but not eye popping. Many outstanding seasons. 8 straight years with 35+ homers. 13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant? Yes. He was the biggest bat on several O's playoff teams. 14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Not really, though he is one of the few players that face against "the Shift." 15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider? Quiet and confident leader and model citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimReefa Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 People never appreciated Raffy for what he was, and that is not his fault. But the fact is that he was the best 1Bman since the late 1980s on a year in and year out basis. I mean, look at the names of the people who went to the All-Star Game instead of him: Mark McGuire Frank Thomas Mo Vaughn McGuire is now hounded by the steroids question. Thomas has never lived up to the early promise of his career. Mo Vaughn's name has become a joke, like Ryan Leaf or Derrick Coleman. All you have to do is say it and you get a laugh. I'd take Raffy over any of those guys, in a heartbeat, now that we can look back with our 20/20 hindsight. WHo belongs in the Hall, the guy who was the best player at your position for 1 year, for 5 years, or for 20 years? No brainer here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Good post Doyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 I guess my issue with Palmerio is that without playing for 20 years, he doesn't get in. Is being a pretty good player for a really long time, really Hall of Fame worthy. It is a skill no doubt. But I don't think playing for a long time should automatically put you in there. Palmerio is hurt by not really having a peak to his career. 1999 stands out as his best year, but from 93-03 he put up very similar very goodstats. By comparison a guy like Frank Thomas from 93-97 put up HUGE seasons and was the best player in the game. I guess the question comes down to, how highly do you rate longevity vs peak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by ThatGuy I guess my issue with Palmerio is that without playing for 20 years, he doesn't get in. Is being a pretty good player for a really long time, really Hall of Fame worthy. It is a skill no doubt. But I don't think playing for a long time should automatically put you in there. Palmerio is hurt by not really having a peak to his career. 1999 stands out as his best year, but from 93-03 he put up very similar very goodstats. By comparison a guy like Frank Thomas from 93-97 put up HUGE seasons and was the best player in the game. I guess the question comes down to, how highly do you rate longevity vs peak. Most of the guys that are in have played roughly as long as Raffy has. Aaron played 24 years and you could say that he was just pretty good over a long period of time. I know that'll be blasphemous to some for saying that, but you can't rack up 755 and 3700 hits without playing for a considerable period of time. Raffy's big homer years are just as big as Aarons (he never even hit 50 in a season) ever were, he just didn't find his power stroke until a little later in his career. Frank Thomas put up huge seasons yes, but his slide over the past years have jeopardized his candidacy for the hall. The only guy I can think of that's in the Hall for dominating a short period of time is Koufax who's run from 60-66 is unparalleled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Don't forget, Raffy's name is linked to steroids as well as McGuire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Stats over 2 years mean nothing but a footnote. Stats over your career decide where you should be... If you tied with only 3 people ever at the end of your career how do you then put the 13th person in ahead of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 16, 2005 Author Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by codeorama Don't forget, Raffy's name is linked to steroids as well as McGuire. it's linked, but not too heavily. I dunno, those voters are going to have a hard time figuring out who to vote for when the time comes for these guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TODD Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 About three years ago, 500 homeruns meant you were a Hall of Famer, no argument. About three years ago, 3,000 hits meant you were a Hall of Famer, no argument. 500 and 3,000 will forever mean you are a Hall of Famer. No argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff it's linked, but not too heavily. I dunno, those voters are going to have a hard time figuring out who to vote for when the time comes for these guys... I totally agree. Does McGuire go it? If he doesn't, how does Bonds? How does Palmeiro? How do the others? It's going to be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by codeorama and possibly Nolan Ryan, but he was really dominant at times, but were the no hitters enough? I wouldn't argue that one too hard, but.... That's just crazy talk. If he didn't play for such horrible teams throughout his career he would easily have 400 wins. He was plagued with terrible run support for most of his 27 year career. We're talking about teams that lost him 16 games in back to back seasons where he finished with ERA's of 2.28, 2.87, and 383 and 367 K's. He had to suffer through years like that throughout his career. I'd think it would take a fool even consider pleading a case against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by Mufumonk That's just crazy talk. If he didn't play for such horrible teams throughout his career he would easily have 400 wins. He was plagued with terrible run support for most of his 27 year career. We're talking about teams that lost him 16 games in back to back seasons where he finished with ERA's of 2.28, 2.87, and 383 and 367 K's. He had to suffer through years like that throughout his career. I'd think it would take a fool even consider pleading a case against him. True that. Make the same case for Blyleven, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by Mufumonk That's just crazy talk. If he didn't play for such horrible teams throughout his career he would easily have 400 wins. He was plagued with terrible run support for most of his 27 year career. We're talking about teams that lost him 16 games in back to back seasons where he finished with ERA's of 2.28, 2.87, and 383 and 367 K's. He had to suffer through years like that throughout his career. I'd think it would take a fool even consider pleading a case against him. Clearly from my post, I was waivering on that one. Basically, he was a .500 pitcher that had 7 no hitters. Based on the 7 no hitters alone, he should probably be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.