I hate Skip Bayless

[codeorama]

Originally posted by jrockster77

Hey guess what, Skip! Hank Aaron played 23 seasons you motherf**king moron!!!

Take away the HR record from Hank, should he be in the HOF then?

[MidwayMonster31]

There's a reason that Bayless got booted from Chicago, for writing pieces of crap like this. There's also a reason that he's better known as Skip Clueless and why "Cold Pizza" is better known as "Dumb and Dumber". If Raffy doesn't make the HOF, that would be the dumbest thing baseball has ever done since the tie at the 2002 All-Star game.

[codeorama]

If Palmiero wasn't an Oriole right now, a lot of you wouldn't care.

[Mufumonk]

Originally posted by codeorama

For YEARS, Cal was the best all around shortstop in the game, was Palmeiro ever considered the best all around firstbaseman in the game? Even once?

I give Cal credit for playing every game, and I even give him credit for somewhat changing the perception of what an ideal SS was. But you can't tell me the man wasn't overrated. Yeah, he hit 400 HR's and over 3000 hits, but it took him 21 years and 3000 games to do it. He had a pretty solid glove, and even a great glove for a few years, but he also had pretty limited range, and some downright atrocious years early in his career in the field. If it wasn't for the streak he wouldn't be held in the same light that he is now.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by codeorama

Take away the HR record from Hank, should he be in the HOF then?

Yes! What is Babe's total, 716 or something like that? If Aaron hit 700 home runs, he still deserves to be there. Sh!t, 600-650 he deserves to be there.

3000 hits and 500 home runs; you just can't argue with that in my mind!

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Mufumonk

I give Cal credit for playing every game, and I even give him credit for somewhat changing the perception of what an ideal SS was. But you can't tell me the man wasn't overrated. Yeah, he hit 400 HR's and over 3000 hits, but it took him 21 years and 3000 games to do it. He had a pretty solid glove, and even a great glove for a few years, but he also had pretty limited range, and some downright atrocious years early in his career in the field. If it wasn't for the streak he wouldn't be held in the same light that he is now.

He didn't "somewhat change" the perception of a SS, he revolutionized the position.

[Mufumonk]

Originally posted by jrockster77

He didn't "somewhat change" the perception of a SS, he revolutionized the position.

There are more SS's in the mold of Ozzie than there are of Cal in today's game.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Mufumonk

I give Cal credit for playing every game, and I even give him credit for somewhat changing the perception of what an ideal SS was. But you can't tell me the man wasn't overrated. Yeah, he hit 400 HR's and over 3000 hits, but it took him 21 years and 3000 games to do it. He had a pretty solid glove, and even a great glove for a few years, but he also had pretty limited range, and some downright atrocious years early in his career in the field. If it wasn't for the streak he wouldn't be held in the same light that he is now.

I respectively disagree, but I understand what you are saying.

Yes, I think he his held to a "baseball god" status because of the streak and the games he tied and broke the streak as well as his personna, however, he was the best shortstop in the game for many years. He did redefine the postion.

The fact that he redefined the postion and hit 20 hrs a year when that was something playing the toughest position on the field (except for catcher), that's something special that warrants the HOF.

Palmerio is never the best at his position, always maybe 3rd or 4th best. But again, based on who is already in the hall, yes, he deserves it.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Mufumonk

There are more SS's in the mold of Ozzie than there are of Cal in today's game.

Because there are not very many 6'3 plus guys that can play the position.

Ask any scout what he'd rather have and the big offensive SS will win out anytime. There just are'nt many out there.

[Spaceman Spiff]

It just seems to me like you guys that don't think Raffy should be a HOFer (Die Hard, Code) are basing this on feelings rather than the stats that Raffy has put up over the years.

Yeah, he wasn't a household name, so what? The man played his position exceedingly well for a long period of time.

And I'm sorry, I don't buy the whole "longevity" argument. Pretty much everyone in the Hall is there because they played a long time and did it great for many years - just like Raffy. Of course to accomplish numbers such as he has, you have to have played for a long time. Perfect example, as someone pointed out, is Aaron. 23 years. In fact, his season high in homers is less than Raffy's is.

Ask Raffy's peers, they'll tell you.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

It just seems to me like you guys that don't think Raffy should be a HOFer (Die Hard, Code) are basing this on feelings rather than the stats that Raffy has put up over the years.

Yeah, he wasn't a household name, so what? The man played his position exceedingly well for a long period of time.

And I'm sorry, I don't buy the whole "longevity" argument. Pretty much everyone in the Hall is there because they played a long time and did it great for many years - just like Raffy. Of course to accomplish numbers such as he has, you have to have played for a long time. Perfect example, as someone pointed out, is Aaron. 23 years. In fact, his season high in homers is less than Raffy's is.

Ask Raffy's peers, they'll tell you.

IMO, the HOF should be reserved for the best of the best. I think there are already too many in the hall that dont deserve it.

I don't disagree that Raffy has huge numbers, but so do a ton of people because of Juiced balls, juiced players, expansion era/weak pitching and smaller ball parks.

You can't compare the players of today with players of the past. So saying that because any player has hit X hr's and X hits should automatically qualify is bunk IMO. That's just me though.

I just know that Raffy was never the best firstbasemen in baseball in any of his seasons.

[Predicto]

Palmeiro is a pretty good, no big deal guy who stayed healthy and played almost his whole long career in hitters' ballparks. He never dominated, never was the best player on his team, never was the best first baseman in the game, or even in the top three, he never carried a team on his back for 40 games, or even 40 minutes. I like him fine, he is a good guy, but he is no big deal.

In these days of greater offensive stats, there are gonna be a bunch of other guys just like him retiring in the next few decades.

[Spaceman Spiff]

In fact, lets play a game...I'm going to put up some anonymous stats here compared to Raffys. These anonymous players are all in the Hall.

First, Raffy's stats: .289 BA 556 HR 1825 RBI 582 2B 2,999 Hits

IN 19 SEASONS

#1. .294 586 HR 1812 RBI 2943 Hits 528 2B

IN 21 SEASONS

#2. .262 (this guy is in the hall of fame and hit .262!!!) 563 HR 1702 RBI 2584 Hits 463 2B

IN 21 SEASONS

#3. 511 HR .304 1860 RBI 2876 Hits 488 2B

IN 22 SEASONS

#4. 521 HR .270 1555 RBI 2211 Hits 353 2B

IN 22 SEASONS

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

In fact, lets play a game...I'm going to put up some anonymous stats here compared to Raffys. These anonymous players are all in the Hall.

It doesn't matter.

IMO, getting into the HOF isn't about comparisons to who is already there, it's about how you dominated in your own era.

As Predicto pointed out, he's never even been the best player on his own team.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Predicto

Palmeiro is a pretty good, no big deal guy who stayed healthy and played almost his whole long career in hitters' ballparks. He never dominated, never was the best player on his team, never was the best first baseman in the game, or even in the top three, he never carried a team on his back for 40 games, or even 40 minutes. I like him fine, he is a good guy, but he is no big deal.

In these days of greater offensive stats, there are gonna be a bunch of other guys just like him retiring in the next few decades.

Never dominated? Never the best player on his team? He was the best player on his previous orioles teams, seeing as Cal was getting too old, he was the main power threat.

There are already guys like him in the Hall of Fame, who never were the so called best on his team, who never dominated, who were never considered the best at their position. You can b!tch about it all you want, but they're in there and it's not going to change.

And if you're in the same club as Aaron Mays and Murray, you're a pretty big deal.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/palmera01.shtml

Look at Raffy's player page and look at all the times he was in the top 10 in different categories.

I agree there are probably some people in the hall that don't deserve to be there, but when measuring someone up who's up for eligibility you measure him against who's already in there and his peers. Any way you want to cut it, he stands up.

People are just down on him because he doesn't have a defining moment (same BS argument they use to keep Monk out of the hall) and isn't a self promoter.

In my eyes keeping Raffy out would be like keeping Monk out.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by codeorama

It doesn't matter.

IMO, getting into the HOF isn't about comparisons to who is already there, it's about how you dominated in your own era.

As Predicto pointed out, he's never even been the best player on his own team.

Alright, well in that case name me a first basemen who's played roughly the same amount of time as he has (Late 80's till now) who's done just as well as he has.

[rictus58]

Originally posted by Predicto

Palmeiro is a pretty good, no big deal guy who stayed healthy and played almost his whole long career in hitters' ballparks. He never dominated, never was the best player on his team, never was the best first baseman in the game, or even in the top three, he never carried a team on his back for 40 games, or even 40 minutes. I like him fine, he is a good guy, but he is no big deal.

In these days of greater offensive stats, there are gonna be a bunch of other guys just like him retiring in the next few decades.

I think he belongs in based on nothing other than the resemblance to Tom Seleck.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

Alright, well in that case name me a first basemen who's played roughly the same amount of time as he has (Late 80's till now) who's done just as well as he has.

McGuire is the first and most obvious that comes to mind, but 2 things, the steroids. I wouldn't put McGuire in because I know he used steroids. Sure, it hasn't been proven, but I have no doubt, seeing what I've seen in the minorleagues, I think many would be shocked at who is using. Second, Palmerio probably used them as well, Canseco named him, I believe Conseco.

But you know, now that you ask the question that way, I'll be honest, I can't really think of too many first basemen that have had his longevity and steady successs.

Bagwell comes to mind (my current favorite player) but he doesn't have Palmerio's numbers and isn't worthy of the HOF in my opinion.

Wow, the more I look into it, something becomes obvious really quick. Firstbase is a really weak position considering that it is a position where offensive numbers are expected. From the 80's on, first base has has a bunch of guys that were not good enough to play other positions or DH's, like Frank Thomas, Cecil Fielder and defensive guys that don't hit as well like JT Snow and John Olerud.

Ok, You win, based on the 80's on, Palmerio is consistantly the best performer. But I have to qualify that. He never, for what ever reason, seems to be at the top, someone else is always better, but it's always someone different.

I still agree with Predicto that he was never the best player on any of his teams, but in terms of who has had a better run, no one has that I can find.

That being said, he still wouldn't be in my personal HOF, but that would be a small group anyway.

[Rocky21]

Originally posted by Mufumonk

You can make the same case against the almighty Cal Ripken. He was by far and away the most overrated player in the history of sports. Yet, he'll make the Hall solely because of the streak.

So let me get this straight. If Cal Ripken didn't play in the most consecutive games in the history of baseball, he wouldn't make the HOF.

If no one invented the basketball, Michael Jordan would be pumping gas.

If your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle.

What exactly is your point?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

Alright, well in that case name me a first basemen who's played roughly the same amount of time as he has (Late 80's till now) who's done just as well as he has.

No takers? Yeah, thats what I thought.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

No takers? Yeah, thats what I thought.

I take it you didn't read my reply above?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by codeorama

I take it you didn't read my reply above?

Ooops, sorry dude. I guess I put my reply up there right when you posted yours and didn't see it.

Yeah, there have been players who have dominated a few seasons at a time at the first base position but no ones done it better and longer than Raffy has. Frank Thomas comes to mind first for me, his run in the mid 90's was truely incredible, but it's unfortunate that he's slowed down, he was one of my favorites to watch.

Big Mac and the steroids, that's going to be a hard thing to judge when his time for the hall. That and his average is way lower than Raffy's (.263 to .289) and has struck out WAY more (1596 to 1336 in 4 less seasons). Still a good player and had some dominating seasons.

Jeff Bagwell. I like him a lot, I think he could make it. It's just a shame he's broken down the way he has over the years, he's another guy i really liked and has put up a few awesome seasons.

A lot of the first basemen out there just have had dominant seasons for short bursts of time but no ones been as consistant as good as Raffy has from the late 80's until now at the first base position, thats why he's got 500/3000 and thats why he's a hall of famer.

[Spaceman Spiff]

And I still have to take issue with him not being the best player on his team. no one on the 1995 Orioles was better than .310 39 HR 104 RBI. Or in 1998 team, .296 43 121.

Even still, there have been cases where guys haven't been the best on their respective teams and have made the hall of fame.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

And I still have to take issue with him not being the best player on his team. no one on the 1995 Orioles was better than .310 39 HR 104 RBI. Or in 1998 team, .296 43 121.

Even still, there have been cases where guys haven't been the best on their respective teams and have made the hall of fame.

That's a good argument.

But just for the record, I have nothing against Raffy and based on who is already in the HOF, he clearly deserved to be, however, if I were in charge, there would be a lot fewer people in there. That was my only point.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by codeorama

That's a good argument.

But just for the record, I have nothing against Raffy and based on who is already in the HOF, he clearly deserved to be, however, if I were in charge, there would be a lot fewer people in there. That was my only point.

I understand and agree, there are some ones in there that really make you wonder if they deserve to be. there should be a better system, I think. Maybe a combination of the ones that are already in the hall and writers. I dunno, but some don't belong.