Flex Tape Team Building

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

No im not. That’s the point of this post to me how Bruce slaps those glue stickers all over the team without much of a plan other then hey there is a leak and hope it works.

 

I get depth, outside of special teams you could argue this point for every position out there but bodies and stickers don’t equal talent. It’s about quality not quantity 

 

What good is a lot of depth if the depth iplay average they have downgraded going with the depth over the talent. We saw that last season losing the two receivers. They had depth, they thought the depth would play as well as the departed and they didn’t.

 

There is nothing wrong with depth as long as the depth is due to become a starter. Have any of those guys shown yet they can play? Simply next man up strategy doesn’t always work. And some positions they haven’t even bothered to replace or add to yet that were obvious needs for the team. That’s Bruce for you

 

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a fan of Bruce and how he runs the team.  I'm just looking at where the team is at now and trying to illustrate that things aren't on end of the world level.  I think we need a football mind running the team.   That said I think the dynamic has changed and we've shifted mentality to build through the draft.  It's a multi-year process and unfortunately we can't overhaul the whole team over night.  We need to fill holes with stop gap options until they can address them with a long term solution.  Take an honest look at our draft history and you can clearly see that we haven't been very good at it.  The past 3 years have appeared to be better.  

 

Year	Rnd		Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2017	1	Jonathan Allen	17	DE	2017	0	0	0	2	5													1.0	Alabama
2017	2	Ryan Anderson	49	OLB	2017	0	0	0	1	14														Alabama
2017	3	Fabian Moreau	81	CB	2017	0	0	0	1	16														UCLA
2017	4	Samaje Perine	114	RB	2017	0	0	1	5	16						175	603	1	22	182	1			Oklahoma
2017	4	Montae Nicholson	123	S	2017	0	0	0	3	8												1		Michigan St.
2017	5	Jeremy Sprinkle	154	TE	2017	0	0	0	0	11									2	13	1			Arkansas
2017	6	Chase Roullier	199	C	2017	0	0	0	4	13														Wyoming
2017	6	Robert Davis	209	WR	2017	0	0	0	0	1														Georgia St.
2017	7	Josh Harvey-Clemons	230	S	2017	0	0	0	1	10													0.5	Louisville
2017	7	Joshua Holsey	235	DB	2017	0	0	0	1	12														Auburn

 

Allen - Starter

Anderson - looks to take a step forward

Moreau - Starter?

Perine - presumably part of a 1 - 2 punch

Nicholson - Starter?

Sprinkle - rotational blocking TE

Roullier - Starter

Davis - PS

Harvey-Clemons - nickle?

Holsey - PS

 

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2016	1	Josh Doctson	22	WR	2017	0	0	1	5	18						1	-14	0	37	568	6			TCU
2016	2	Su'a Cravens	53	OLB	2016	0	0	0	2	11												1	1.0	USC
2016	3	Kendall Fuller	84	CB	2017	0	0	0	6	29												4		Virginia Tech
2016	5	Matthew Ioannidis	152	DT	2017	0	0	1	6	24													4.5	Temple
2016	6	Nate Sudfeld	187	QB	2017	0	0	0	1	1	19	23	134	0	0	1	22	0						Indiana
2016	7	Steven Daniels	232	ILB		0	0	0																Boston Col.
2016	7	Keith Marshall	242	RB		0	0	0																Georgia

 

Doctson - Starter

Cravens - Malcontent traded

Fuller - Traded for starting QB, quality player

Ioannidis - Starter

Sudfeld - Developmental guy forced to release to make room for injury replacements

Daniels - PS

Marshall - Stays hurt

 

2015	1	Brandon Scherff	5	T	2017	0	2	3	26	46														Iowa
2015	2	Preston Smith	38	DE	2017	0	0	2	17	48												3	20.5	Mississippi St.
2015	3	Matt Jones	95	RB	2017	0	0	0	10	25						248	964	6	27	377	1			Florida
2015	4	Jamison Crowder	105	WR	2017	0	0	1	18	47	0	1	0	0	0	11	34	0	192	2240	12			Duke
2015	4	Arie Kouandjio	112	G	2017	0	0	0	4	17														Alabama
2015	5	Martrell Spaight	141	OLB	2017	0	0	0	6	30												1		Arkansas
2015	6	Kyshoen Jarrett	181	SS	2015	0	0	0	2	16														Virginia Tech
2015	6	Tevin Mitchel	182	CB		0	0	0																Arkansas
2015	6	Evan Spencer	187	WR	2015	0	0	0	0	1														Ohio St.
2015	7	Austin Reiter	222	C	2017	0	0	0	1	17														South Florida

 

Scherff - Starter

Smith - Starter 

Jones - Gone

Crowder - Starter

Kouandjio - Depth O-line

Spaight - Quality backup,  has started

Jarrett - Injury forced out of the league

Mitchel - Eh 

Spencer - retired

Reiter - backup C for Cleveland

 

 

12 / 26 players drafted over the last 3 seasons have been elevated to starting positions while still on their rookie deal.  That means we're drafting well.  Most teams would struggle to hit 50% of their drafts with the most recent being a 70% return.   The team is addressing it deeper than the flex tap analogy, but we can't expect to build a whole new team in 1 offseason.  To add to this drafting we've added players like Foster and Brown via free agency, and since re-signed both to extensions that are team friendly deals. 

 

Kerrigan - Drafted and resigned

Williams - Drafted and resigned

Moses - Drafted and resigned

Thompson - Drafted and resigned

 

Here's another thing to consider.  If we draft a LG, that would mean the only player on either the O-line or D-line that is starting that wasn't drafted by us... would be whoever ends up at NT. 

 

 

As it stands right now there are 2 players slotted as Offensive starters that we did not draft.... We can't expect to build a team without adding short term stop gap pieces.  Every team does it while they build through the draft.  

[SWFLSkins]

 

Flex seal is the modern day equivalent to lipstick on a pig. It's what Ashburn does under Bruce. While I think some moves done are the best they could do, it is clear the best they could do is slap a patch on it. At some point the customer is going to notice. Not addressed in the OP is the sad effect this has on not only the fanbase but also on the HC we have now and any potential HC down the road. I hope Bruce moves onto guy in charge of Stadiums and stuff, let's Doug and Scott Campbell take over players and everything else pigskin related. 

[SWFLSkins]

On 4/8/2018 at 1:13 PM, megared said:

 

I thought about that, but specifically wanted to have a discussion as to whether anyone is seeing how our front office moves (whether you agree or disagree with my initial assessment) as "strategic" or "forward thinking".  

 

No. And no matter the happenings around Scot, at least he sounded as though he understood and was implementing strategic thinking as a master plan. Talked about short term, mid term and long term plans, with mid term and long term being fluid. Talked specifics on each of them. 

[Reaper Skins]

Love the OP.

 

I said it in another thread, Allen's approach seems to prioritize saving money more than adding wins.

 

So every year we have a team that overperforms and manages to get to 8-8.  Then during the offseason, he tries to find a cheaper way to hit that same level of talent.

 

So now were still and 8-8 team, but we're a much CHEAPER 8-8 team?  Hooray ?   

 

I mean, IN THEORY, this strategy lets you hold out for those few guys who will bump you over the top, but Bruce hasn't shown any ability to identify WHO those "over the top" pieces are, nor does he have a good enough reputation around the league to entice those players to come to the Redskins.  Or he DOES have them here but alienates them by penny pinching until they want to leave. 

 

So we just sit here season after season with the consolation prize that we didn't overspend.  That's almost as good as a Super Bowl right?

[onedrop]

On April 8, 2018 at 3:01 PM, carex said:

 

And I do consider them forward thinking.  We've had no real success with the people he's replacing and he's getting stop gaps until we can develop players

 

maybe, or his ineptitude is simply cyclical.....it keeps going and going and going.

 

if this was a normal corporation, without the benefit of tax dodging profit sharing, judged by the success or failure of their product, the entire front office would be fired and danny snyder would be put to pasture by a board of directors. nowhere in the world of real business is this level of failure allowed to continue.

[Rex Tomb]

On 4/9/2018 at 12:53 AM, thesubmittedone said:

I don’t even care about the points being made or whether I agree or not... this is quality ES stuff right here.  

 

This is what makes ES such a great support group, like AA or the Becoming my Parents group.

 

[megared]

13 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

See here I disagree with you. We went into this season with two huge needs when the final seconds of the 2017 season expired.

 

RB and NT

 

So I think we're saying almost the same thing (I would've added WR as well).  But that doesn't include the 20+ free agents we had coming up in the off season.

 

As I see it, based upon what we did or didn't do in free agency, we now also have holes to fill in the following positions:

LG 

 

And major question marks at the following positions:

WR 

C - is Chase Roullier the answer?  

CB - Can the young guys step up?  

S - Would be nice to have competent backups or a young guy learning considering Nicholson only played six games and Swearinger is going to have his contract redone after this season.   

OLB - losing two guys and only replacing one means more usage...less depth.  

[megared]

15 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

Where is all this money coming from?   We have like $20 mil in cap space if we're lucky, and that doesn't include rookie contracts.   We've re-signed Brown and Foster to very fair deals, added a pass rusher who is inexpensive, added P. Rich, and other small pieces.  We don't have the cap space to pay Garcon/Jax, Murphy, Gallette, Breeland, and whoever else we may have let go.  Next year we have Scherff, P. Smith, Crowder, and Thompson coming to the end of their deal.  We can't ASSUME that the cap will go up another $10 mil, and there is NO way we would be able to bring all, or any for that matter, of those guys back if we had signed some of these other BACKUPS to new contracts.  

 

As far as approaching Breeland and Murphy about extending... I'd imagine we KNEW we weren't going to be bringing either back.  In fact I'm a little miffed we didnt flip Breeland for something instead of just letting his contract expire in a relatively down season.  Murphy was untouchable due to getting popped for PEDs coincidentally enough following the best season of his career... it smells really bad that he made such a step forward and then got hit.... I would actually expect him to fall off or get popped again.  

 

We're too top heavy with the guys we're paying. That's why I was (& remain) adamantly against the Alex Smith trade.  We aren't on the cusp of a Super Bowl run.  Not only did we send a 3rd, but also a guy on a rookie contract that we knew was outperforming his pay.  So that's two cheap players lost...and Smith's contract is going to be cost prohibitive to us building after this season.  It just didn't make sense with all of the other holes we have in the roster.  

 

And look I love Trent Williams, but every year since 2013 he's played in less games per season.  He counts almost $15 M against the cap next season (2019), A. Smith is $20.4 M, Norman counts $14.5 M, Kerrigan a shade under $14 M, Scherff $12.5 M.  Jordan Reed almost $10 M, Z. Brown almost $9 M, V. Davis $6.3 M, Swearinger $5.8 M, Morgan Moses almost $7 M...that's 10 players at $114.5 M, almost 65% of the projected 2019 cap.  That leaves $62.7 M for 43 players, an average of $1.46 M per player (with 12 other those remaining 43 being starters and commanding much more money).

 

Even if you have an absolutely "glass is full" view of all of the FO moves, do you honestly think we need to keep all of these people at these prices to be a team a game on either side of 8-8?

[carex]

 

3 hours ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

No. And no matter the happenings around Scot, at least he sounded as though he understood and was implementing strategic thinking as a master plan. Talked about short term, mid term and long term plans, with mid term and long term being fluid. Talked specifics on each of them. 

 

so your defense of Scot is he talked a better game while stinking

 

1 hour ago, megared said:

 

So I think we're saying almost the same thing (I would've added WR as well).  But that doesn't include the 20+ free agents we had coming up in the off season.

 

As I see it, based upon what we did or didn't do in free agency, we now also have holes to fill in the following positions:

LG 

 

And major question marks at the following positions:

WR 

C - is Chase Roullier the answer?  

CB - Can the young guys step up?  

S - Would be nice to have competent backups or a young guy learning considering Nicholson only played six games and Swearinger is going to have his contract redone after this season.   

OLB - losing two guys and only replacing one means more usage...less depth.  

 

I am so sick of hearing how we lost two OLB, and people acting like that affects the defense, when in the three years since we signed Gallette, they had not been on the active roster together once. So how about everyone jsut pretend the Junior tore his ACL for the third time and Murphy got popped for another suspension

 

Chase is not regarded as  question mark for the team. 

[megared]

31 minutes ago, carex said:

 

 

so your defense of Scot is he talked a better game while stinking

 

 

I am so sick of hearing how we lost two OLB, and people acting like that affects the defense, when in the three years since we signed Gallette, they had not been on the active roster together once. So how about everyone jsut pretend the Junior tore his ACL for the third time and Murphy got popped for another suspension

 

Chase is not regarded as  question mark for the team. 

 

We're not talking year's past...I'm simply looking in comparison to what we had last season.  And regardless of where you stand on Galette, losing him means we no longer have a pass rush specialist to attack the QB on 3rd downs (and by all accounts McPhee is more of a run stopping OLB).  I'm not lamenting the loss of him personally, other than to say it's another gap that we need to somehow fill, unless you're fine with not having much of a pass rush.

 

Chase still has improvements he needs to make.  And by elevating him from depth, we also need to backfill someone that can stand in at center, and slide over to guard if necessary (not to mention SIGNING/DRAFTING a starting LG).  He's very much a question mark because he's never done it an entire season.  Can he stay healthy?  Can he contribute more in the run game?  

[carex]

18 minutes ago, megared said:

 

We're not talking year's past...I'm simply looking in comparison to what we had last season.  And regardless of where you stand on Galette, losing him means we no longer have a pass rush specialist to attack the QB on 3rd downs (and by all accounts McPhee is more of a run stopping OLB).  I'm not lamenting the loss of him personally, other than to say it's another gap that we need to somehow fill, unless you're fine with not having much of a pass rush.

 

Chase still has improvements he needs to make.  And by elevating him from depth, we also need to backfill someone that can stand in at center, and slide over to guard if necessary (not to mention SIGNING/DRAFTING a starting LG).  He's very much a question mark because he's never done it an entire season.  Can he stay healthy?  Can he contribute more in the run game?  

 

 do me a favor?  Google Pernll Mcphee pass rush.  Whoever told you McPhee is more of a run guy LIED to you.  Now as for Roullier, he was already elevated from depth because the guy he replaced missed half the season.  He missed three games with a hand injury.  Bone injuries aren't the type that frequently recur

[megared]

10 minutes ago, carex said:

 

 do me a favor?  Google Pernll Mcphee pass rush.  Whoever told you McPhee is more of a run guy LIED to you.  Now as for Roullier, he was already elevated from depth because the guy he replaced missed half the season.  He missed three games with a hand injury.  Bone injuries aren't the type that frequently recur

 

31 career sacks / 7 seasons = ~4.5 sacks a season.  Not what I'd call an elite sack specialist.  We understand he's only here to backup Preston and Kerrigan...but one injury and we're relying on him.  And unless you're telling me he's equipped to play all defensive downs (despite his durability saying otherwise)..I think having someone behind him would be a good idea.     

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, megared said:

 

We're too top heavy with the guys we're paying. That's why I was (& remain) adamantly against the Alex Smith trade.  We aren't on the cusp of a Super Bowl run.  Not only did we send a 3rd, but also a guy on a rookie contract that we knew was outperforming his pay.  So that's two cheap players lost...and Smith's contract is going to be cost prohibitive to us building after this season.  It just didn't make sense with all of the other holes we have in the roster.  

 

And look I love Trent Williams, but every year since 2013 he's played in less games per season.  He counts almost $15 M against the cap next season (2019), A. Smith is $20.4 M, Norman counts $14.5 M, Kerrigan a shade under $14 M, Scherff $12.5 M.  Jordan Reed almost $10 M, Z. Brown almost $9 M, V. Davis $6.3 M, Swearinger $5.8 M, Morgan Moses almost $7 M...that's 10 players at $114.5 M, almost 65% of the projected 2019 cap.  That leaves $62.7 M for 43 players, an average of $1.46 M per player (with 12 other those remaining 43 being starters and commanding much more money).

 

Even if you have an absolutely "glass is full" view of all of the FO moves, do you honestly think we need to keep all of these people at these prices to be a team a game on either side of 8-8?

 

 

You're making the point I've been trying to make.. that we NEED to be adding some stop gap, short term players while we continue with the current financial position we're in.  I never said that the FO was the best in the biz, nor did I say that they're doing all the right things.  I never said we were in a great position, but given the circumstances, this offseason has been one that APPEARS like they understand.  No big name signings, no getting taken to the woodshed in negotiations.  We held out on Brown with our number and he ended up agreeing, we've held up on Hankins and we'll see what happens.  What we CAN'T do now is throw more money at the problem.  I was partially against paying Moses what we did, when we did it, but O-Line continuity is important if we're going to be adding pieces.  Scherff is going to get some serious coin, but we will see if it hits $12.5 mil like you're suggesting.  Jordan Reed is likely gone by week 1 of next season (just a guess), and I'm also hoping Norman agrees to shifting some money around.  

 

No, we do not need to keep all of those people at those prices in order to be a middle of the pack team.  There are going to be some cap casualties, and some cuts that make room.  All teams do it, it's part of the process. 

[SWFLSkins]

54 minutes ago, carex said:

 

 

so your defense of Scot is he talked a better game while stinking

 

I don't know how you connected the two. It is concerning lipstick on a pig when it comes to our moves being reactionary and not planned out. 

 

54 minutes ago, carex said:

 

 

I am so sick of hearing how we lost two OLB, and people acting like that affects the defense, when in the three years since we signed Gallette, they had not been on the active roster together once. So how about everyone jsut pretend the Junior tore his ACL for the third time and Murphy got popped for another suspension

 

I see no harm in keeping Gallette on a reasonable deal, seems unlikely at this point. 

 

54 minutes ago, carex said:

 

Chase is not regarded as  question mark for the team. 

 

Agreed, they do need some kind of plan regarding building the lines. I would at least like the reach around Scot gave compared to what's coming out of Ashburn now. Tell me you wouldn't like to hear about the Lines being the focal point going forward. 

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, megared said:

 

31 career sacks / 7 seasons = ~4.5 sacks a season.  Not what I'd call an elite sack specialist.  We understand he's only here to backup Preston and Kerrigan...but one injury and we're relying on him.  And unless you're telling me he's equipped to play all defensive downs (despite his durability saying otherwise)..I think having someone behind him would be a good idea.     

 

Anderson?

1 minute ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

I don't know how you connected the two. It is concerning lipstick on a pig when it comes to our moves being reactionary and not planned out. 

 

 

I see no harm in keeping Gallette on a reasonable deal, seems unlikely at this point. 

 

 

Agreed, they do need some kind of plan regarding building the lines. I would at least like the reach around Scot gave compared to what's coming out of Ashburn now. Tell me you wouldn't like to hear about the Lines being the focal point going forward. 

 

Williams - Drafted

Roullier - Drafted

Scherff - Drafted

Moses - Drafted

 

 

Allen - Drafted

Ioannidis - Drafted

Anderson - Drafted

Kerrigan - Drafted

Smith - Drafted

 

 

Where have they neglected the lines? 

[SWFLSkins]

Instead we got the players talking about the issue....

[megared]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Anderson?

 

I think Anderson backs up Smith and McPhee will be backing up Kerrigan.  I thought the idea of having a strong side pass rush specialist would be good, since neither Anderson or Smith are consistent threats on third down.  

[SWFLSkins]

6 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Anderson?

 

Williams - Drafted

Roullier - Drafted

Scherff - Drafted

Moses - Drafted

 

 

Allen - Drafted

Ioannidis - Drafted

Anderson - Drafted

Kerrigan - Drafted

Smith - Drafted

 

 

Where have they neglected the lines? 

 

Can't run the ball, can't stop the run, ,,, I'd say on the Field. 

[carex]

12 minutes ago, megared said:

 

31 career sacks / 7 seasons = ~4.5 sacks a season.  Not what I'd call an elite sack specialist.  We understand he's only here to backup Preston and Kerrigan...but one injury and we're relying on him.  And unless you're telling me he's equipped to play all defensive downs (despite his durability saying otherwise)..I think having someone behind him would be a good idea.     

 

we have Anderson

 

10 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

I don't know how you connected the two. It is concerning lipstick on a pig when it comes to our moves being reactionary and not planned out. 

 

 

I see no harm in keeping Gallette on a reasonable deal, seems unlikely at this point. 

 

 

Agreed, they do need some kind of plan regarding building the lines. I would at least like the reach around Scot gave compared to what's coming out of Ashburn now. Tell me you wouldn't like to hear about the Lines being the focal point going forward. 

 

I would like the lines to be a focal point.  His draft history wouldn't give me much hope of that.

[SWFLSkins]

And certainly not Coaching, the Lines Coaches among the best in the business, now Yes injuries played a part, but there are pieces missing. A DT to pair with Allen, A G/C..... I know, I know the injuries and such, but that speaks to depth. Last year I hope was an anomaly. 

[MassSkinsFan]

38 minutes ago, megared said:

Chase still has improvements he needs to make.  And by elevating him from depth, we also need to backfill someone that can stand in at center, and slide over to guard if necessary (not to mention SIGNING/DRAFTING a starting LG).  He's very much a question mark because he's never done it an entire season.  Can he stay healthy?  Can he contribute more in the run game?  

 

Roullier was a clear upgrade from Long. I was actually pretty happy that we released Long.

 

Questions about his durability are kind of moot since most injuries to OL come from being rolled up. Here's a bit of reading on that: https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/08/29/offensive-lineman-injuries-luke-joeckel

 

When you're rolled up, almost no amount of durability or conditioning matters. 

 

In the case of his broken hand, it would not have mattered if it were his off-hand (i.e. the one not used to snap); if it had been, they probably would have done the surgery and put him back in after a week off. As it was, he only missed three games, even though the hand he broke was his snapping hand.  OL break fingers, toes and hands all the time, and lots of those injuries are not reported. 

 

My point is, being rolled up of having your fingers, toes or hand broken by someone stepping on them (the usual culprit) are not thing where the question "can he stay healthy" is really meaningful for someone at C, unless they have a history of hammy or torn muscle problems. Don't see that with Chase.

 

I do agree that we need help at LG. The good news is that if we do find the right guy, it will elevate everyone's play along the OL, especially TW and Roullier.

 

[megared]

8 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

You're making the point I've been trying to make.. that we NEED to be adding some stop gap, short term players while we continue with the current financial position we're in.  I never said that the FO was the best in the biz, nor did I say that they're doing all the right things.  I never said we were in a great position, but given the circumstances, this offseason has been one that APPEARS like they understand.  No big name signings, no getting taken to the woodshed in negotiations.  We held out on Brown with our number and he ended up agreeing, we've held up on Hankins and we'll see what happens.  What we CAN'T do now is throw more money at the problem.  I was partially against paying Moses what we did, when we did it, but O-Line continuity is important if we're going to be adding pieces.  Scherff is going to get some serious coin, but we will see if it hits $12.5 mil like you're suggesting.  Jordan Reed is likely gone by week 1 of next season (just a guess), and I'm also hoping Norman agrees to shifting some money around.  

 

No, we do not need to keep all of those people at those prices in order to be a middle of the pack team.  There are going to be some cap casualties, and some cuts that make room.  All teams do it, it's part of the process. 

 

No, if we are trying to position ourselves to be competitive, we shouldn't be paying those salaries...we should be renegotiating or moving on.  

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

Can't run the ball, can't stop the run, ,,, I'd say on the Field. 

 

 

We had one of the best rush defenses til Allen got hurt... 

 

Week 1 vs Philly - 2.4 ypc (64 yards)

Week 2 vs LA Rams - 4.4 ypc (97 yards)

Week 3 vs Oakland - 2.5 ypc (32 yards)

Week 4 vs KC - 5.4 (168 yards) -  THIS one really hurt

Week 5 vs San Fran - 4.4 ypc - (85 yards)

 

Allen announced on Oct 18 that he'll miss the remainder of the season

 

Week 6 (Oct 23rd) vs Philly - 3.8 ypc (127 yards)

Week 7 vs Dallas - 4.3 ypc (169 yards)

 

And that's where it went sour.  In the 5 weeks prior to Allen getting hurt we gave up 446 yards rushing for an average of 89.2 yards per game.  That average over a 16 game season would have put us at no. 4 in the NFL

 

 

I agree with you completely that we need interior D-line help.  DT is about as big a need as we have this season... but we can't fix every single position in 1 offseason, and like @megared pointed out so well, we're top heavy.  Throwing a ton of money at a DT is not going to help this team long term.  Where does it start and where does it end?  We can only draft so many players, and pay so many free agents at a time.... What could the team do RIGHT NOW that would make you happy or change your opinion of how they're doing business?  

[megared]

Just now, MassSkinsFan said:

 

Roullier was a clear upgrade from Long. I was actually pretty happy that we released Long.

 

Questions about his durability are kind of moot since most injuries to OL come from being rolled up. Here's a bit of reading on that: https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/08/29/offensive-lineman-injuries-luke-joeckel

 

When you're rolled up, almost no amount of durability or conditioning matters. 

 

In the case of his broken hand, it would not have mattered if it were his off-hand (i.e. the one not used to snap); if it had been, they probably would have done the surgery and put him back in after a week off. As it was, he only missed three games, even though the hand he broke was his snapping hand.  OL break fingers, toes and hands all the time, and lots of those injuries are not reported. 

 

My point is, being rolled up of having your fingers, toes or hand broken by someone stepping on them (the usual culprit) are not thing where the question "can he stay healthy" is really meaningful for someone at C, unless they have a history of hammy or torn muscle problems. Don't see that with Chase.

 

I do agree that we need help at LG. The good news is that if we do find the right guy, it will elevate everyone's play along the OL, especially TW and Roullier.

 

 

My fundamental disagreement with this argument of 'moving on' as soon as someone else flashes is that there's a 'cost' to us moving on.  What's the cost in resources to replace Long, or this in case his backup, when you can't address it all in the draft?  Maybe we'll luck out on an unsigned FA, or guy off the street, but wishful thinking isn't going to work for every gap we have.  

 

Then that gap becomes larger, because it's apparent in the course of a season.  Then after the season, instead of addressing present/future needs, we're in the dire situation of addressing positions that have been weaknesses for entire seasons (RB, NT, WR).  That's not forward thinking.  

 

We look at Long's contract and say, 'yup, no way we could've paid him that' & "Great job FO!", when in essence Long's new contract is a pay as you go, one year, $6 M contract.  There's no guaranteed money and the Jets can opt out at any point in time.  Had we negotiated with him last off season, we probably could've gotten him 20-30% cheaper than that. 

 

If our strategy is going to be to wait until guys hit free agency and allow teams to dictate their values on the open market, we're never going to be able to build a contender.  We need to be locking guys up in the last year of their current contracts and not allowing everyone to test free agency.  

[MassSkinsFan]

8 minutes ago, megared said:

 

My fundamental disagreement with this argument of 'moving on' as soon as someone else flashes is that there's a 'cost' to us moving on.  What's the cost in resources to replace Long, or this in case his backup, when you can't address it all in the draft?  Maybe we'll luck out on an unsigned FA, or guy off the street, but wishful thinking isn't going to work for every gap we have.  

 

Then that gap becomes larger, because it's apparent in the course of a season.  Then after the season, instead of addressing present/future needs, we're in the dire situation of addressing positions that have been weaknesses for entire seasons (RB, NT, WR).  That's not forward thinking.  

 

We look at Long's contract and say, 'yup, no way we could've paid him that' & "Great job FO!", when in essence Long's new contract is a pay as you go, one year, $6 M contract.  There's no guaranteed money and the Jets can opt out at any point in time.  Had we negotiated with him last off season, we probably could've gotten him 20-30% cheaper than that. 

 

If our strategy is going to be to wait until guys hit free agency and allow teams to dictate their values on the open market, we're never going to be able to build a contender.  We need to be locking guys up in the last year of their current contracts and not allowing everyone to test free agency.  

 

Wishful thinking isn't going to turn Spencer Long into a good starting C in the NFL. 

 

I'm just talking about a common sense move in one position.

 

There is no point in further investment in Long, a guy who IMHO is a backup, and who is near the end of his career. I don't see any opportunity cost to letting him walk. I do see an opportunity cost to keeping him and not using his spot to take a look at new talent. On the one hand we have an unknown but potentially good or bad outcome while on the other we have a bad outcome.

 

Hail.

 

PS - as you can tell I haven't been happy with status quo at C for a long time. Long and Licht both drove me crazy. Big guys who played smaller than they were. I was over the moon when Roullier got his chance last season.