Flex Tape Team Building

[OVCChairman]

14 minutes ago, megared said:

 

 

If our strategy is going to be to wait until guys hit free agency and allow teams to dictate their values on the open market, we're never going to be able to build a contender.  We need to be locking guys up in the last year of their current contracts and not allowing everyone to test free agency.  

 

I agree with you here bud, i honestly do... and even further we could have flipped Murphy, Breeland, and Cousins for value... even if its minimal.  We did it with Cravens, but that was a lost cause.  I don't want to see us ride a guy til free agency if we clearly could tell the offseason before that happens, that they were not going to be retained.  What I DON'T want to do, is throw money at guys just because we drafted them for the sake of justifying the pick.  If it's time to move on, we need to move on.  If they're going to command more money than we are comfortable paying... let em go, but you want to see a return on that.  

[bobandweave]

25 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

What could the team do RIGHT NOW that would make you happy or change your opinion of how they're doing business?  

 

One way would be to see the news that Dan fired Bruce Allen

Another way would be a press release saying Dan sold the team

 

Both would make the fan base incredibly happy right now and both should happen.

 

@OVCChairman The whole business model that is being presented there about "how well the Redskins have drafted" is bogus. Why? Because just because they got lucky and found someone in the draft they failed to execute re-signing the guys who actually produced here showing the league this team under Bruce is an NFL farm system. Also this doesn't mean anything when a piece of the scouting of those classes is no longer here so it doesn't mean that they can repeat the success they have had in the past this year. So no I don't think they drafted well, and that doesn't change my opinion in the slightest considering I knew that before. To me saying they drafted well says they got players they thought were worthy of second contracts because those second contracts are building blocks to the foundation of the team going forward. They resigned Morgan Moses from the 2014 class and let the other 8 guys leave. That's horrible. Bruce is the problem and a real football guy wouldn't have done that 

 

14 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

I agree with you here bud, i honestly do... and even further we could have flipped Murphy, Breeland, and Cousins for value... even if its minimal. 

 

That could have happened with a real GM. Truth is that last October Bruce decided to turn down picks for Terrelle Pryor choosing to put him on IR rather then to get any picks for him from Cleveland. Why the hell did Bruce do that? I mean if they weren't gonna use the guy why not trade him to Cleveland? Makes no sense. Then Bruce refused to trade Kirk numerous times.

 

Your damn right the Redskins could have traded players for picks instead of just seeing them all walk for nothing but Bruce is horrible at his job so nothing happened. Just another damn reason Bruce needs to go as quickly as possible

[megared]

51 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

What could the team do RIGHT NOW that would make you happy or change your opinion of how they're doing business?  

 

This is a real good question...and in looking at some teams that have quickly rebuilt, I think it's more of an organizational problem to be solved than individual personnel decisions.  Bruce shouldn't be the one deciding who is going to be the QB.  He shouldn't be the person deciding whether our FAs walk or not.  As long as we have this front office structure that's designed to look functional, but is really just a proxy for Bruce calling all of the shots, we're not going to win.  A winning organization requires a lot of good people doing their jobs well.  

 

Lurie told Roseman to build him the finest scouting department in the NFL.  They made several bold moves and revamped a terrible roster of former Oregon Ducks, into a SB winner, in just two seasons. 

 

The Saints turned around three consecutive 7-9 seasons by having one great draft. 

 

The 49ers brought in guys off the street, and also weren't afraid to be bad, in order to position themselves better for the future.  

 

My question to you is what would it take for you to be convinced that the front office isn't making progress?  Would it take seeing the Giants overhaul their roster and reemerge to respectability while we are stuck in quicksand? 

[carex]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

That could have happened with a real GM. Truth is that last October Bruce decided to turn down picks for Terrelle Pryor choosing to put him on IR rather then to get any picks for him from Cleveland. Why the hell did Bruce do that? I mean if they weren't gonna use the guy why not trade him to Cleveland? Makes no sense. Then Bruce refused to trade Kirk numerous times.

 

Your damn right the Redskins could have traded players for picks instead of just seeing them all walk for nothing but Bruce is horrible at his job so nothing happened. Just another damn reason Bruce needs to go as quickly as possible

 

trades for injured people can be invalidated if the new team says they fail a physical.  If Pryor had a two or three year contract, yeah maybe Cleveland keeps him despite him showing up and not being able to play, but do you really think they'd have sent us a draft pick, slapped him on IR and waved goodbye at the beginning of free agency this year?

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

One way would be to see the news that Dan fired Bruce Allen

Another way would be a press release saying Dan sold the team

 

Both would make the fan base incredibly happy right now and both should happen.

 

@OVCChairman The whole business model that is being presented there about "how well the Redskins have drafted" is bogus. Why? Because just because they got lucky and found someone in the draft they failed to execute re-signing the guys who actually produced here showing the league this team under Bruce is an NFL farm system. Also this doesn't mean anything when a piece of the scouting of those classes is no longer here so it doesn't mean that they can repeat the success they have had in the past this year. So no I don't think they drafted well, and that doesn't change my opinion in the slightest considering I knew that before. To me saying they drafted well says they got players they thought were worthy of second contracts because those second contracts are building blocks to the foundation of the team going forward. They resigned Morgan Moses from the 2014 class and let the other 8 guys leave. That's horrible. Bruce is the problem and a real football guy wouldn't have done that 

 

 

That could have happened with a real GM. Truth is that last October Bruce decided to turn down picks for Terrelle Pryor choosing to put him on IR rather then to get any picks for him from Cleveland. Why the hell did Bruce do that? I mean if they weren't gonna use the guy why not trade him to Cleveland? Makes no sense. Then Bruce refused to trade Kirk numerous times.

 

Your damn right the Redskins could have traded players for picks instead of just seeing them all walk for nothing but Bruce is horrible at his job so nothing happened. Just another damn reason Bruce needs to go as quickly as possible

 

 

As much as I would LOVE to see those two things happen.. they're not going to.. yet.  A bunch of rumors swirling from a semi-credible source that it's on the brink... but I'm not holding my breath, I'll believe it when I see it.  My point is not that I want this front office going forward.  What I am trying to say is that I don't think Bruce is the actual end all anymore.  The philosophy has shifted in Ashburn to something we've all wanted.  Prudent FA decisions, drafting along the lines, developing home grown talent, and not losing negotiations and overspending.  Are we perfect?  God no, but I think we're looking more like we're going in the right direction.  I DON'T credit Bruce for these changes... instead I look to Schaffer and Campbell, as well as now Doug being a figurehead.  Take that for what it's worth, but if that's true, it could push closer to us getting what we want... and that's Bruce being removed from football operations and shifted into some sort of an administrative role for the franchise.  Of course having Bruce be gone would be my preference, but again.... not sure that's gonna happen.  

 

[megared]

12 minutes ago, carex said:

 

trades for injured people can be invalidated if the new team says they fail a physical.  If Pryor had a two or three year contract, yeah maybe Cleveland keeps him despite him showing up and not being able to play, but do you really think they'd have sent us a draft pick, slapped him on IR and waved goodbye at the beginning of free agency this year?

 

Whether he would've passed their physical or not, no one knows...but they did want him back (after we benched him).

Browns tried to trade for Terrelle Pryor, but Redskins didn't want to deal him, source says

[Califan007 The Constipated]

WTF happened to the flex tape pics, dammit?!...

[megared]

18 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

The philosophy has shifted in Ashburn to something we've all wanted.  Prudent FA decisions, drafting along the lines, developing home grown talent, and not losing negotiations and overspending.  Are we perfect?  God no, but I think we're looking more like we're going in the right direction.  

Bolded is the issue.  I don't want appearances of success...I'd like for us to actually win games.

 

If you look to every off season since Gruden was hired, it's essentially been the same process, while keeping most of the same expensive top level players.  After a certain point I do think letting the vast majority of your draft picks go elsewhere is a problem, centering on the lack of long term planning.  

 

18 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

WTF happened to the flex tape pics, dammit?!...

 

Bruce's roster building:

 

[OVCChairman]

22 minutes ago, megared said:

 

My question to you is what would it take for you to be convinced that the front office isn't making progress?  Would it take seeing the Giants overhaul their roster and reemerge to respectability while we are stuck in quicksand? 

 

If we would have paid Brown $10+ per year, if we would have gone after one Landry, if we would have signed Hankins to a deal during his visit by 'not letting him leave.'  

I see a lot of good young talent on this roster, the days of living and dying by a roster full of players on their 2nd contract are gone.  We've gotten better at drafting, it's a step, now we need to get better at retention.  I don't want to see our drafted players leave either, but we're not near what we used to be... 

[megared]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

If we would have paid Brown $10+ per year, if we would have gone after one Landry, if we would have signed Hankins to a deal during his visit by 'not letting him leave.'  

I see a lot of good young talent on this roster, the days of living and dying by a roster full of players on their 2nd contract are gone.  We've gotten better at drafting, it's a step, now we need to get better at retention.  I don't want to see our drafted players leave either, but we're not near what we used to be... 

 

That's stuff that Cerrato did.  I don't think that by in acknowledging what Vinny did was wrong, Bruce's job should be safe for doing the exact opposite, but producing similar results.  

 

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, megared said:

Bolded is the issue.  I don't want appearances of success...I'd like for us to actually win games.

 

If you look to every off season since Gruden was hired, it's essentially been the same process, while keeping most of the same expensive top level players.  After a certain point I do think letting the vast majority of your draft picks go elsewhere is a problem, centering on the lack of long term planning.  

 

 

 

Yeah well you're not wrong.  We need to start winning, and it needs to start this coming season.  My feelings are regarding the shift in process, now we need to see the results.  I'm still not sold that Gruden is a viable head coach.  Part of me still feels like he's a really good OC, and nothing more.  

[carex]

1 hour ago, megared said:

 

Whether he would've passed their physical or not, no one knows...but they did want him back (after we benched him).

Browns tried to trade for Terrelle Pryor, but Redskins didn't want to deal him, source says

 

Yes, I know that.  I didn't debate that, but Allen has been around the business his entire life and maybe he just didn't think it was worth the paperwork.  Or maybe he thought that Pryor would generate a comp pick better than whatever the  Browns offered

[bobandweave]

2 hours ago, carex said:

 

trades for injured people can be invalidated if the new team says they fail a physical.  If Pryor had a two or three year contract, yeah maybe Cleveland keeps him despite him showing up and not being able to play, but do you really think they'd have sent us a draft pick, slapped him on IR and waved goodbye at the beginning of free agency this year?

 

lol what argument are you trying to make here? Like you knew in October when the Browns were calling about Pryor that he was injured? Why you making this mess up?

[SWFLSkins]

4 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

We had one of the best rush defenses til Allen got hurt... 

 

Week 1 vs Philly - 2.4 ypc (64 yards)

Week 2 vs LA Rams - 4.4 ypc (97 yards)

Week 3 vs Oakland - 2.5 ypc (32 yards)

Week 4 vs KC - 5.4 (168 yards) -  THIS one really hurt

Week 5 vs San Fran - 4.4 ypc - (85 yards)

 

Allen announced on Oct 18 that he'll miss the remainder of the season

 

Week 6 (Oct 23rd) vs Philly - 3.8 ypc (127 yards)

Week 7 vs Dallas - 4.3 ypc (169 yards)

 

And that's where it went sour.  In the 5 weeks prior to Allen getting hurt we gave up 446 yards rushing for an average of 89.2 yards per game.  That average over a 16 game season would have put us at no. 4 in the NFL

 

 

I agree with you completely that we need interior D-line help.  DT is about as big a need as we have this season... but we can't fix every single position in 1 offseason, and like @megared pointed out so well, we're top heavy.  Throwing a ton of money at a DT is not going to help this team long term.  Where does it start and where does it end?  We can only draft so many players, and pay so many free agents at a time.... What could the team do RIGHT NOW that would make you happy or change your opinion of how they're doing business?  

 

Well, Winning would be a start, but hey it's offseason. lol. 

 

I don't think throwing big money at a DT would be an answer either. Drafting one on the other hand would be great, someone to pair with Allen, I've maintained that stance and will continue to. I am fully aware of the stats you laid out regarding Allen. 

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

Well, Winning would be a start, but hey it's offseason. lol. 

 

I don't think throwing big money at a DT would be an answer either. Drafting one on the other hand would be great, someone to pair with Allen, I've maintained that stance and will continue to. I am fully aware of the stats you laid out regarding Allen. 

 

lol so we're hypothetically upset that the FO doesnt know what their doing because the MAY not sign Hankins prior to the draft, or they MAY not draft Vea at 13 addressing the biggest need? 

[carex]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

lol what argument are you trying to make here? Like you knew in October when the Browns were calling about Pryor that he was injured? Why you making this mess up?

 

wht is wrong with you?  Allen would have known that Pryor was injured by that point, which makes attempting to trade him pointless.  Are you not able to put that together because of your bias, or what?

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

lol what argument are you trying to make here? Like you knew in October when the Browns were calling about Pryor that he was injured? Why you making this mess up?

 

 

You do realize that if they KNEW he was hurt and wasn't able to pass a physical, that any trade would have been nullified anyway? 

[SWFLSkins]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

lol so we're hypothetically upset that the FO doesnt know what their doing because the MAY not sign Hankins prior to the draft, or they MAY not draft Vea at 13 addressing the biggest need? 

 

We're? You got a mouse in your pocket? lol. The FO doesn't know what it's doing because they haven't proven otherwise.

 

But hey enjoy the twenty year old bottle of wishful thinking, it really has a heady nose and finishes like a balsamic more suited for mixing with olive oil and herbs. 

 

I must be getting hungry. 

[OVCChairman]

11 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

We're? You got a mouse in your pocket? lol. The FO doesn't know what it's doing because they haven't proven otherwise.

 

But hey enjoy the twenty year old bottle of wishful thinking, it really has a heady nose and finishes like a balsamic more suited for mixing with olive oil and herbs. 

 

I must be getting hungry. 

 

Believe me, I don't think Bruce knows what he's doing, and a lot of the conversation and back and forth I've been trying to present isn't about the front office being capable, but more about maybe they've struggled in the past but they've also appeared to be doing some things better... at least in my mind.  It makes me feel very uneasy to have ANY confidence in our FO as I've bought in before just to be the jilted lover that can't seem to see it coming.  I thought I had learned my lesson but who knows.  In a vacuum, the last 12 months of decisions have seemed better than those of the past.  Clearly a good bit of the issues and problems we've faced are due in large part to the lack of ability our front office has, so the argument of 'we wouldn't be here unless....' is completely understood, acknowledged, and accounted for.  That all said we're here, what are we gonna do about it?  Most teams suck until they don't.  We don't suck anymore... we're not quite good, but we don't suck.  The future doesn't look rosey, but it doesn't look dismal either regarding players and talent.  We're mediocre, which is a small miracle compared to what we looked like during the Zorn years, as well as at the departure of Shanny.  

 

Winning cures all and like most I'm tired of .500.... This year needs to be a big time jump.  I want double digit wins... not 'competitive week to week.'  I guess we will all see.  I am excited for the draft though!

 

 

BTW, yes 'WE' cuz despite disagreement we're all still battered skins fans and we're in this crap together....

 

and BTW again... congrats on 29K 

[carex]

32 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

You do realize that if they KNEW he was hurt and wasn't able to pass a physical, that any trade would have been nullified anyway? 

 

 

yes finally someone else gets it.  THANK YOU!

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, carex said:

 

 

yes finally someone else gets it.  THANK YOU!

 

 

I'm with ya bud, I mentioned that back when the injury came out and the lack of trade was a problem.  

[SWFLSkins]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Believe me, I don't think Bruce knows what he's doing, and a lot of the conversation and back and forth I've been trying to present isn't about the front office being capable, but more about maybe they've struggled in the past but they've also appeared to be doing some things better... at least in my mind.  It makes me feel very uneasy to have ANY confidence in our FO as I've bought in before just to be the jilted lover that can't seem to see it coming.  I thought I had learned my lesson but who knows.  In a vacuum, the last 12 months of decisions have seemed better than those of the past.  Clearly a good bit of the issues and problems we've faced are due in large part to the lack of ability our front office has, so the argument of 'we wouldn't be here unless....' is completely understood, acknowledged, and accounted for.  That all said we're here, what are we gonna do about it?  Most teams suck until they don't.  We don't suck anymore... we're not quite good, but we don't suck.  The future doesn't look rosey, but it doesn't look dismal either regarding players and talent.  We're mediocre, which is a small miracle compared to what we looked like during the Zorn years, as well as at the departure of Shanny.  

 

Winning cures all and like most I'm tired of .500.... This year needs to be a big time jump.  I want double digit wins... not 'competitive week to week.'  I guess we will all see.  I am excited for the draft though!

 

 

BTW, yes 'WE' cuz despite disagreement we're all still battered skins fans and we're in this crap together....

 

and BTW again... congrats on 29K 

 

Thanks, and I appreciate your candor and perspective, I just wish I could muster any confidence in the FO at this point. I hope to be wrong, I hope that DW saves us again,,,,oh and Scott Campbell gets to make these picks coming up, hahah, one can wish. 

[megared]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

Believe me, I don't think Bruce knows what he's doing, and a lot of the conversation and back and forth I've been trying to present isn't about the front office being capable, but more about maybe they've struggled in the past but they've also appeared to be doing some things better... at least in my mind.  It makes me feel very uneasy to have ANY confidence in our FO as I've bought in before just to be the jilted lover that can't seem to see it coming.  I thought I had learned my lesson but who knows.  In a vacuum, the last 12 months of decisions have seemed better than those of the past.  

 

I just don't see how doing the opposite of what Vinny did warrants praise, when it's resulting in the same thing:

 

Redskins employee:  "Boss, it's 12:00 am, free agency has begun who do you want to bring in?"

 

Vinny:

 

 

Bruce:

 

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, megared said:

 

I just don't see how doing the opposite of what Vinny did warrants praise, when it's resulting in the same thing:

 

Redskins employee:  "Boss, it's 12:00 am, free agency has begun who do you want to bring in?"

 

Vinny:

 

 

Bruce:

 

 

 

I literally said in the post you quoted that I don't think Bruce knows what he's doing.

 

Personally I think Campbell and DW have taken the helm regarding football decisions, hence the lack off a 'gm' title.  Shaffer running the books and managing the contract $ and Bruce is there to work on the stadium deal.  A small part of me believes the Russell Report has merit and that there are bigger frustrations regarding Bruce than we all thought.... or at least that's what I'm hoping.... 

[megared]

3 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I literally said in the post you quoted that I don't think Bruce knows what he's doing.

 

Personally I think Campbell and DW have taken the helm regarding football decisions, hence the lack off a 'gm' title.  Shaffer running the books and managing the contract $ and Bruce is there to work on the stadium deal.  A small part of me believes the Russell Report has merit and that there are bigger frustrations regarding Bruce than we all thought.... or at least that's what I'm hoping.... 

 

How can you possibly believe that when there was a story about Bruce telling Doug to ignore his phone the night the A. Smith trade was finalized??? 

 

Do you think that Doug had anything to do with that trade?  And if so, despite media sources, quoting him, you think Doug had anything to do with finalizing that deal?